I would like to point out at this juncture that personally I don't even own a TIE Defender, but having played 5 games against them and done a sum total of one point of damage in those five games, I'm in total, shell-shocked awe.

...and that one point of damage came form a Blount Ion Pulse Missile.

it would be more impressive if it wasn't Blount...or even more impressive if Blount missed!

That was kind of the point.

Keffisch, you can't make a Howlie + 3 Ties swarm with a Rexler HLC predator by the way. The points aren't there. Yes, the main benefit is the PS 8, and like in the case of bobafett, it is too pricey for what you get.

I never said anything about a HLC.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Keffisch, you can't make a Howlie + 3 Ties swarm with a Rexler HLC predator by the way. The points aren't there. Yes, the main benefit is the PS 8, and like in the case of bobafett, it is too pricey for what you get.

I never said anything about a HLC.

Yes, you are right.

And then again, since you are running Howlrunner and you would be basically forcing yourself to joust on many match ups, instead of flanking with rexler and keeping your miniswarm as an anvil, being the one forcing your opponent to make decissions instead of running straight, why don't you just take 2 interceptors? Or 1 defender for 30 points ?

The discussion should be about how much worth is PS on the defender. If it had access to systems i would indeed see the good things about it, otherwise, i just don't see the PS8 worth the point's investment, pretty much as i do not see the point investment for Boba Fett worth it, and he has an ability which is atleast isn't completely dependant on luck.

@Jon D i actually like the PS1 on the defender. It allows you to bump other ships, for the eventual 4K turn nicely.

Y'know what they say about assumptions.

It already is a worthy investment at 40pts imho.

Those two rerolls (3 vs PS 2) + PS 8 & Focus = yummy.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

The thing is the PS1 pilots are surprisingly effective, I have two defenders and the most success I have had is with the basic pilots with no upgrades, last game I played, I took two deltas and a souped up shuttle, the shuttle was dead turn two, the two PS1 defenders went on to take out four rebal ships and win me the game.

Give them a go, you may well be surprised

Love this thread, loved Defenders since Tie Fighter(1993/4?)

The thing is the PS1 pilots are surprisingly effective, I have two defenders and the most success I have had is with the basic pilots with no upgrades, last game I played, I took two deltas and a souped up shuttle, the shuttle was dead turn two, the two PS1 defenders went on to take out four rebal ships and win me the game.

I can vouch for this scenario.

Y'know what they say about assumptions.

It already is a worthy investment at 40pts imho.

Those two rerolls (3 vs PS 2) + PS 8 & Focus = yummy.

You would get x2 3 dice attacks for 36 points, and you get to decide wether you use the focus or not for defense, which is a bonus since if you have PS8, and you have to take into acount that when jousting, if you spend the focus, your opponent can actually focus your big fat investment down first.

And yes, Lone Wolf can help to have a miniswarm (even tho 1-2 from your miniswarm is going to be pretty hard to keep up once the fight starts), it was effective, but not as much as other builds with Mini swarm like Captive Trelix or Whisper, or the other defender options (Vessery well supported, or regular defenders). So i say it again, why take Rexler in the first place ? And if your answer is going to be fluff/fun, sure fine, but that's not what i am discussing.

Because I detest 3 Hull PS 1 ships.

Too easy to counter, too easy to one-/two-shot.

A focusless defender jousting is not exactly more durable. PS8 or 1. I had actually two shotted rexler btw. 2 HLC defenders + Jonus. He decided to spend the focus against Jonus, and then eat the bagguette, bad choice ^^

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

What he said, backed up by maths that makes my brain hurt. Just do it

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

I think it's time for ffg to do what x-wing really needs for balance, and let the tie defender take an r2 astromech

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

If you're playing against people that always K-Turn whenever the move is available to them and not mixing it up a bit, then you need to find better opponents.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

If you're playing against people that always K-Turn whenever the move is available to them and not mixing it up a bit, then you need to find better opponents.

How about instead of trying to be witty you instead don't take my quote out of context nor belittle my opponents.

The fact remains K-turns can be blocked before or after they move at PS1, so the original premise that PS1 was good for them was largely flawed.

shrug

I haven't had much issue doing K-turns with Rexlar. Of course, I also don't use it enough that it's the only move my opponents need to predict. The situations I used the K-turn was just about as obvious as any other situation a K-turn would be the obvious move.

If that insulted you that much I do apologize, that is not what I intended.

Let me try and explain this a bit better. In a situation with a PS1 Defender, if you are able to accurately predict that your opponent might want to do the white 4 K-turn on their next maneuver and get your own ship in to position, and you opponent then attempts said K-Turn anyways and gets blocked, then they need to learn to change their strategy on the fly or judge distances better. If you are merely saying that you can make it so that option is not available to them their next turn, that's fine, but not the same as blocking.

The theory that PS1 does help with the K-Turn does still stand. To look at it another way, most players recognize that PS1 TIE Fighters are great blockers, does that mean that they can always accurately predict that and avoid being blocked? History says no on that one. PS1 TIE Fighters continue to be effective blockers because skilled pilots can still maneuver them effectively in that capacity. The same reasoning can be applied to the PS1 Defender and K-Turning. Is it easier to K-Turn at PS1? Yes it usually is. Is it always easier? No, it is not.

So to again look at your quote, "The k-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move," really is a narrow view on a fascinating dial.

Must... fight... urge to.... k-turn!.... **** it! *Bump!*

You can prevent your opponent from doing a K-turn next turn, but it's not the only trick up their sleeve. At PS1, you have a clear view if the move will pass or not. When you set your dial, there is no ship that will come out of nowhere and block you when you will reveal your maneuver. If you're PS3, a PS1 or 2 enemy ship might come in your way. But will he do it? There is a guessing game. At PS1, there is no guess, it will or will not pass. If it doesn't pass, just pick another maneuver. It's in that sense that a PS1 Defender k-turn is harder to block. The player know for sure if the way is clear and can act accordingly.

It is not as easy to block, because defenders have a five straight. Many times, after the first few shots at range 3, i just bumrush the other guys squad, get into range one, bump one or more of his ships, and then 4K turn. It is really hard to block that, and defenders with a focus are pretty good against action less 4 dice rolls, and they would lose their actions the next round too by being forced to perform a 4K turn. This is extremely good against B-wings, forcing range 3 against them.

I think I would be more of a Defender fan if the basics weren't PS1. They are supposed to be elite pilots, not scrubs.

Thematically I agree, but PS1 Defenders really benefit from being able to perform a white 4 K-turn knowing they won't be blocked.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

If you're playing against people that always K-Turn whenever the move is available to them and not mixing it up a bit, then you need to find better opponents.

I'm up for proving the Defender's worth. Dude just needs to see what it's like to fly against someone who plans 3 turns out.

Must... fight... urge to.... k-turn!.... **** it! *Bump!*

You can prevent your opponent from doing a K-turn next turn, but it's not the only trick up their sleeve. At PS1, you have a clear view if the move will pass or not. When you set your dial, there is no ship that will come out of nowhere and block you when you will reveal your maneuver. If you're PS3, a PS1 or 2 enemy ship might come in your way. But will he do it? There is a guessing game. At PS1, there is no guess, it will or will not pass. If it doesn't pass, just pick another maneuver. It's in that sense that a PS1 Defender k-turn is harder to block. The player know for sure if the way is clear and can act accordingly.

I would also like to point out that sometimes, an opponent will become so enamored with the idea that they can block the k-turn that it blinds them to the fact that doing so is actually a bad move on their part.

The only way you can block a PS1 Defender is if you happen to be flying Enhanced Scopes, you've got a damaged cockpit or you've got PS1s of your own and have initiative. Nowhere near as likely as it sounds. Even if you predict that white 4K there's usually nothing you can do about it.

Oh there's few things sweeter than the groan of frustration when they plan on you k turning and you do anything but.

If all you do is k turn you deserve to lose the ship has a great dial as long as you realise it's not an interceptor, your not a fragile glass Canon that needs to get hits in before dieing to one shot your a tank with great endurance so plan your moves accordingly.

And really PS1 and PS3 are a benefit allowing you to control the movement phase.

While this is true, it cuts both ways, it's relatively easy to prevent them K-turning by getting into a position to block the K-turn on the prior turn. The K-turn is so predictable you still only have to predict one move.

Ehhh, wut?

If you've moved into a position to block the White 4 K-Turn the previous turn, then your opponent simply won't white 4 K-Turn, will they? They'll take a shorter move, getting themselves into range 1 (with an action).

Let's re-acquaint ourselves with the defender's dial here, shall we?

White 1/2/3 banks.

Green 2/3/4/5 straights

White 4 K-turn

...and at PS1, Imperial, it WILL be moving first unless you're running a lower point list. Oh yeah - it can barrel roll as well.

Now, all things being equal, tell me EXACTLY how you go about blocking that.