Lately I have noticed that there is an increase in complains directed towards mathematically impossible scenarios, such as:

>>Certified walking dead Falcon with C3PO + MF title vs 1x TIE, heck 2x TIEs and there's still no problem

>>Any Xwing + R2D2 vs 1x anything with 2 atk dice, especially TIEs. You could throw in Luke Skywalker Xwing or any Ewing for fun as well.

>> 1v1 ACD Phantom vs any non turreted ship of lower PS

>>Higher PS turreted ships equipped with engine upgrade, or barrel roll, or both, under 1v1 conditions

I'm not particularly happy about how the game has seemingly degraded so far, and I share the same sentiments of stuff feeling frustratingly overpowered, eg. C3P0 on a Falcon that has MF title, Engine Upgrade, gunner + predator / other atk modifiers all in the same package, ACD on phantoms (honestly the 4atk and decloaking and shields and 4 hp and barrel roll and pilot ability and everything else is perfectly fine, if ACD did not exist.)

Is there anything that could be done about this? Obviously there are "hard counters", but most of the time they are just not viable. I still recall the days of Wave 3 where I could bring pretty much anything to play against pretty much anything else and even with some Scissor-Paper-Stone involved, the game is still reasonably fair. I have won falcon based HSF lists with 3 ship PTL Sabers back then, for example. Was tough, but still reasonable. Now all of a sudden, phantoms appear and if I didnt pack ghostbusting equipment Im completely defeated with 0 reasonable chance of winning, except if my opponent decides to roll 3-4 blanks at the exact moment i give him a string of 3 hits, and he has to do this 2-3 times throughout the course of the game.

Yes, it is very frustrating that the Scissor-Paper-Stone of the current game has grown so strong, and the particular reasons could actually be narrowed down to just that 1 or 2 upgrade cards, honestly. Imagine if there was no ACD, C3PO could not be used together with Boost or Roll (maybe make C3P0 take an action? I dunno, put a C3P0 token on him, spend that token to use C3P0 efect?), there would be significantly less of these situations, the game IS STILL balanced, with all the FFG intended meta changes* still around (eg. predator vs low PS lists, Phantoms to counter blocking, Falcons getting a defensive boost to make them more viable, etcetc, **mainly based on the 30min Gencon interview and other sources). In fact, I mostly agree with an overwhelming majority of FFG decisions, like falcons being designed to need good flying to actually make use of them, the seemingly high cost of TIE Defenders, the conceptualization of the TIEadv back during wave 1 wave 2 days, the high cost attached to crit based effects, and so on

I dunno, maybe Im just tired of getting defeated by that same ACD phantom when I didnt bring a Roark or Vader, or by a Falcon C3P0 hanging on that last 2 hit points while my last 2 full hp Academy TIEs didnt have Outmaneuver, or so on. I mean, I started since the core set was released, before wave 1 was even available, I had seemingly 1 sided game moments like ordnance-less Bombers vs PTL Interceptors, 2 academy TIEs vs Luke R2D2 Shield, etcetc and I've came up victorious, under monthly FLGS organized tournament situations. At least back then, those matchups were bad, but still winnable. Now, take 3 Xwings or 4 TIEs vs an ACD phantom and you are completely screwed with no (mathematically reasonable) chance of winning at all. If you want my track record, I can call up 4-5 other FFG forum users to vouch for me, or simply come to Singapore and ask for my name. I do not think I am complaining without sufficient experience nor knowledge on the current game.

It's not as bad as you think, you just haven't learned how to beat those particular fad builds. Read some of the threads to learn from more experienced players.

It's not as bad as you think, you just haven't learned how to beat those particular fad builds. Read some of the threads to learn from more experienced players.

I would prefer more useful replies with actual content in them, as opposed to simply "go and watch how others play" or "go get more experience"

I apologise, but I feel extremely insulted when similar advice is given out of goodwill, especially after considering my track record in the game so far. As much as I do try to be open minded about it, I have done my fair share of homework and also have my own fair share of accomplishments within the game. Not to mention the amount of time I spend on this game on a daily basis.

I would appreciate advice that had actual content in them though.

But similar threads have popped up almost every day, and they have your specific answers. I think it's unfair of you to ask the experts (I don't claim to be one) to repost everything when you can search and find your answers much easier. Sorry if those aren't the droids you're looking for.

Lately I have noticed that there is an increase in complains directed towards mathematically impossible scenarios, such as:

>>Certified walking dead Falcon with C3PO + MF title vs 1x TIE, heck 2x TIEs and there's still no problem

>>Any Xwing + R2D2 vs anything with 2 atk dice, especially TIEs. You could throw in Luke Skywalker Xwing or any Ewing for fun as well.

>> 1v1 ACD Phantom vs any non turreted ship of lower PS

Uhhh...why would you *expect* either of the above to be balanced?

Any named Falcon - say, Chewie - with the MF title and C3P0 is at nearly 50 points.

If the enemy has 50 points on the table, and you've got 12...you lost that round a long time ago.

Ditto Luke + R2D2. Point-wise, that's a match for nearly *three* TIE Fighters. If you are down to a single one...uhhh...again, you lost that match a long time ago.

When you start a round, take a look at what the enemy has on the table. If you see something that you know is going to be a pain in your backside during the late-game...make sure that is the first thing you kill. I'd say, lacking specific details from your post, that is the only GENERAL advice I can give that would apply. Try to plan out the entire round - even at a general/high level - as soon as you see what is on the table. Have a sense for what of your ships the enemy is likely to target (IE., plan out when you will be losing pilots), and what the difficulty would be in each of his ships surviving to the late game with what YOU expect to have in the late game...then set your targets accordingly.

But similar threads have popped up almost every day, and they have your specific answers. I think it's unfair of you to ask the experts (I don't claim to be one) to repost everything when you can search and find your answers much easier. Sorry if those aren't the droids you're looking for.

I am aware of these threads, as well as most of the commonly suggested answers. I also watched most youtube replays of games, not just limited to the tournament coverage, but also casual games by players whenever they appear. I have also experimented with weird stuff that could be a possible solution that no one has thought of yet.

But the more I delve, the more I come to the reality that you really need specific counters against these new upgrade cards (not ships).

Now, take 3 Xwings or 4 TIEs vs an ACD phantom and you are completely screwed with no (mathematically reasonable) chance of winning at all.

Does the Phantom roll green dice? Yes.

Can those green dice fail to roll evades? Yes.

You have a 15% chance that four green dice will not roll an evade symbol.

That is mathematically reasonable.

It's contradictory when lots of threads complain about how poor green dice are, but then threads like this complain about how great green dice are when they're rolling for a Phantom...

Lately I have noticed that there is an increase in complains directed towards mathematically impossible scenarios, such as:

>>Certified walking dead Falcon with C3PO + MF title vs 1x TIE, heck 2x TIEs and there's still no problem

>>Any Xwing + R2D2 vs anything with 2 atk dice, especially TIEs. You could throw in Luke Skywalker Xwing or any Ewing for fun as well.

>> 1v1 ACD Phantom vs any non turreted ship of lower PS

Uhhh...why would you *expect* either of the above to be balanced?

Any named Falcon - say, Chewie - with the MF title and C3P0 is at nearly 50 points.

If the enemy has 50 points on the table, and you've got 12...you lost that round a long time ago.

Ditto Luke + R2D2. Point-wise, that's a match for nearly *three* TIE Fighters. If you are down to a single one...uhhh...again, you lost that match a long time ago.

When you start a round, take a look at what the enemy has on the table. If you see something that you know is going to be a pain in your backside during the late-game...make sure that is the first thing you kill. I'd say, lacking specific details from your post, that is the only GENERAL advice I can give that would apply. Try to plan out the entire round - even at a general/high level - as soon as you see what is on the table. Have a sense for what of your ships the enemy is likely to target (IE., plan out when you will be losing pilots), and what the difficulty would be in each of his ships surviving to the late game with what YOU expect to have in the late game...then set your targets accordingly.

Your opponent is not an idiot, and would consider the exact same thing from your POV. Moreover, most of these scenarios come about due to snowball effects from wins and losses in various skirmishes as the game progresses. Ideally, yes you can match your opponent with the perfect counter which your squad may or may not have packed, like some pokemon game , but on the table this just doesnt happen. Sometimes your opponent is good, and keeps luke R2D2 shield all the way at the back of the table at range 5 doing doughnuts while the rest of the battle rages on. Other times your Roark gets taken out by an ill fated hit hit crit crit into blank blank double direct hit on the first combat turn. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and you have to improvise.

unfortunately, that "improvisation" part seems to be increasingly diminished as the game releases progress

Now, take 3 Xwings or 4 TIEs vs an ACD phantom and you are completely screwed with no (mathematically reasonable) chance of winning at all.

Does the Phantom roll green dice? Yes.

Can those green dice fail to roll evades? Yes.

You have a 15% chance that four green dice will not roll an evade symbol.

That is mathematically reasonable.

It's contradictory when lots of threads complain about how poor green dice are, but then threads like this complain about how great green dice are when they're rolling for a Phantom...

you have 4 rookie Xwing. You maintain a formation when going in to make his movements more predictable and prevent him from picking your ships off 1 by 1, but keep them slightly spread at different angles to cover firing arcs. You can even consider attempting to block off his decloaking possibilites to restrict his movements or force him onto rocks. You always setup TL+F situations. You avoid getting shot at by flying close to his landing points, especially with low hp Xwings, to try and spread damage. Every turn you have 2-3 very nice TL+F into strings of 3s against it. you deal it 2 damage on the first few combat rounds, and you feel that you have some chance against it. After some attrition, you lose 1 Xwing. It's ok, you still have 3Xs, you can still go about business as usual. But now your number of attacks drop to about 1-2, and he starts to dodge your shots. ok nice, you landed a crit that manages to annoy him for awhile, but after a bit more exchanges you are now down to 2 Xwings. Now if you are lucky, you can get in 1 attack against him every turn, where he is cloaked with some tokens maybe. You may or may not have your TL+F setup, but it's ok. Then your Xwing dies, and you are left with your final Xwing. Then you realize that you cannot catch him within your firing arc at all anymore, even when you and him and playing with dials face up and with discussion between both parties.

then your Xwing dies, and you realize you still have not yet accounted for the remaining 50-60 odd points of his list.

Rinse and repeat for most combinations and lists suggested, with players swapping sides. I play nearly 4-5 hours every 3 days per week at 3 different FLGS / playgroup invites, and at home I play left hand vs right hand for 2-3 hours without fail every single day, on top of viewing Xwing related materiel on at least 5 different forums. Yes, I know dices do fail, I have a lot of fluke wins and fluke losses, I have personally experienced most jokes and impossible situations that people talk about IRL multiple times given the amount of Xwing I play. I have enough knowledge of math to appreciate the numbers and charts that the other users have came up with, as well as the limitations and implications of those models. I have also tried some of my own, but they are very rudimentary and the end results are very close to those models provided by other helpful members after accounting for inaccuracies in the tests and my own lack of knowledge anyway, so yeah.

I really do not think a lack of experience is an issue here.

Here's another mathematically impossible scenario: a single academy pilot with 1 HP left against Fel at full HP. THIS IS BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE FIXED. NERF OVERPOWERED INTERCEPTORS.

Sometimes your opponent is good, and keeps luke R2D2 shield all the way at the back of the table at range 5 doing doughnuts while the rest of the battle rages on.

Then you slaughter your opponent's other ships with 100 points against their 60-70 points. Keeping expensive ships out of the fight is a very good way to lose the game.

Here's another mathematically impossible scenario: a single academy pilot with 1 HP left against Fel at full HP. THIS IS BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE FIXED. NERF OVERPOWERED INTERCEPTORS.

Sometimes your opponent is good, and keeps luke R2D2 shield all the way at the back of the table at range 5 doing doughnuts while the rest of the battle rages on.

Then you slaughter your opponent's other ships with 100 points against their 60-70 points. Keeping expensive ships out of the fight is a very good way to lose the game.

I've seen that game won by the TIE fighter twice actually, both under casual gaming conditions. It is relatively easy to predict Fel's movements generally speaking, and by attempting a block I managed to make Fel clip an asteroid after he failed a hard turn 2. 1 lucky crit, then a K3 (or hard turn 1, cant remb) from the TIE on the next turn with a lucky 2 hit into blanks killed the fel. Fluke win of course, but still a win i suppose?

The other situation was similar, we were at the map corner and my hard turn 2 was blocked, causing my final landing position to be off the map

Of course, I lost count of the number of times where Fel emerged victorious under those conditions, but what I am getting at is that it was still possible, unlike the current issue I have with the phantom

EDIT: as for your 2nd point, what do you think I was trying to do with my list and the rest of his list until I had only a pair of TIEs left?

I saw it happen today. This evening had an E-wing with R2-F2 and I was at range 3. Was hit with 3 hits, rolled 5 defense dice...... only one evade. And that was the second time in the same game that E-wing had that happen.

Of course, I lost count of the number of times where Fel emerged victorious under those conditions, but what I am getting at is that it was still possible, unlike the current issue I have with the phantom

And you can get the same fluke wins against a phantom or tank Falcon. Nothing has changed, there have been endgame situations where you can only win by sheer luck and/or stupid opponents since the day the game was released.

EDIT: as for your 2nd point, what do you think I was doing with my list and the rest of his list until I had only a pair of TIEs left?

Then you just had bad luck and/or skill. If you get that kind of situation where you can focus on an outnumbered opponent then you need to exploit it and reach endgame with more of your list intact. The odds are in your favor, so most of the time you should finish with more than a pair of TIEs left.

Sorry, but if you can't kill a phantom in two turns, 3 tops, you just need to get better at the game.

Phantoms have just as much survivability as a z-95. You just have to be a better pilot than your opponent.

Of course, I lost count of the number of times where Fel emerged victorious under those conditions, but what I am getting at is that it was still possible, unlike the current issue I have with the phantom

And you can get the same fluke wins against a phantom or tank Falcon. Nothing has changed, there have been endgame situations where you can only win by sheer luck and/or stupid opponents since the day the game was released.

From my POV, the 2 scenarios I mentioned seemed to be more focused on the maneuvering aspect, as opposed to rolling dices at each other and hoping for extreme luck. With ACD phantoms, the maneuvering aspect is heavily slanted in favour of the phantom, even more so than a PTL TIEint.

as for the 2nd point, im sorry i suck at Xwing.

Duraham, It seems like there's some back and forth with you and a few others in this thread, and for a bit I wasn't sure how to respond. On one hand, I agree with some of your point, but there are a few where I find your stance shakey at best. However, there does appear to be one piece of advice not yet provided, so rather than a patronizing lecture about quoting statistical outliers as evidence, I have to ask you:

How are you planning your asteroids?

Seriously. I see advice for movement, targeting, squad analysis, blocking and focus-fire… but no pre-game flight plan or asteroid placement. What you should be doing is learning the ins and outs of that. Many people I've played against, met, or talked to on this forum seem to just follow a sort of casual, "toss 'em wherever" attitude. And that's fine. But if you're struggling against certain lists or ships, then maybe it's time for you to create a set of asteroid placement tips. For instance, I myself like to place more asteroids on my side of the board, with only 1-2 really important ones on my opponent's side to force them into certain approach vectors. I do this by using my asteroid placement to force their asteroid placement. I want them mostly on my side so that when our two squads meet, i'm mostly clear of obstacles, while my opponent has to suddenly worry about what angles they can turn to come back at me because most of the clutter is now in their way (since I'd say about 90% of games have their initial engagement zone in the middle of the map). I can then use my maneuverable ships to come about easily while shaving my opponents off my tail (this involves positioning myself close to asteroids during the initial attack, so that any straight or bank vectors my opponent might be able to take in pursuit end up overlapping an asteroid). This usually gives me another turn while they have to waste time clearing the obstacle, or at the very least forces them to move slowly and gives me cover for a round.

Anyway, as a start (and if you haven't already) you can likely find some very good articles on asteroid placement, one of which I know is on the FFG newsfeed for X-Wing. Not sure which of the world champs wrote it, I don't remember. Important thing is that it's very helpful. Anyway, good luck and hopefully you'll develop an anti-phantom or anti-whatever style that works with what ships you like to fly (because this game is still much more balanced than you seem to think it is).

We need new subforum in here -"Sky is falling", very much

Duraham, It seems like there's some back and forth with you and a few others in this thread, and for a bit I wasn't sure how to respond. On one hand, I agree with some of your point, but there are a few where I find your stance shakey at best. However, there does appear to be one piece of advice not yet provided, so rather than a patronizing lecture about quoting statistical outliers as evidence, I have to ask you:

How are you planning your asteroids?

Seriously. I see advice for movement, targeting, squad analysis, blocking and focus-fire… but no pre-game flight plan or asteroid placement. What you should be doing is learning the ins and outs of that. Many people I've played against, met, or talked to on this forum seem to just follow a sort of casual, "toss 'em wherever" attitude. And that's fine. But if you're struggling against certain lists or ships, then maybe it's time for you to create a set of asteroid placement tips. For instance, I myself like to place more asteroids on my side of the board, with only 1-2 really important ones on my opponent's side to force them into certain approach vectors. I do this by using my asteroid placement to force their asteroid placement. I want them mostly on my side so that when our two squads meet, i'm mostly clear of obstacles, while my opponent has to suddenly worry about what angles they can turn to come back at me because most of the clutter is now in their way (since I'd say about 90% of games have their initial engagement zone in the middle of the map). I can then use my maneuverable ships to come about easily while shaving my opponents off my tail (this involves positioning myself close to asteroids during the initial attack, so that any straight or bank vectors my opponent might be able to take in pursuit end up overlapping an asteroid). This usually gives me another turn while they have to waste time clearing the obstacle, or at the very least forces them to move slowly and gives me cover for a round.

Anyway, as a start (and if you haven't already) you can likely find some very good articles on asteroid placement, one of which I know is on the FFG newsfeed for X-Wing. Not sure which of the world champs wrote it, I don't remember. Important thing is that it's very helpful. Anyway, good luck and hopefully you'll develop an anti-phantom or anti-whatever style that works with what ships you like to fly (because this game is still much more balanced than you seem to think it is).

Yes, I have considered Asteroids too, but it is quite difficult to put concepts that are more spatial based into words, and I find that the effects of asteroids tend to be slightly more influential in the deployment at the start of the game, as well as affecting the flight path of my opponent. Although it is fun to place asteroids such that they severely limit the possible decloak options of the phantom (for example), the impact is not as immediately evident as opposed to other more tangible aspects of the game, like deckbuild or dice luck, so it can be quite hard to attribute win/lose etc to specific asteroid placements.

Asteroids do help a lot in fighting falcons though, you can restrict their boost / roll options a lot more effectively, making that C3P0 falcon easier to chase down with multiple low PS ships

EDIT: In more detail, I actively consider things such as setting up "Bermuda Triangles" and creating spots where I want the battle to take place, as well as the advice and ideas mentioned in those articles. Ideas like influencing opponent to counterdeploy asteroids based on symmetry, placing asteroids at range 3 / etc ranges to deny further placements of asteroids in the same spot, 45deg and off angle placements and rotation of asteroids to create "optical illusions" that a large ship / bunch of small ships could enter but actually couldnt, sequence of the 6 asteroid pieces that you should use them and what impacts the different shapes have at different angles, etcetc. But on the whole I'm not very confident about their impact in actual gameplay, and I thus rarely bring up the topic of asteroids in most ordinary game discussions

That One Guy, could you share your insights regarding the areas where you disagree with? Would like to consider your thoughts.

maybe you could also briefly mention the areas that you are in agreement with as well, so I can see where I'm on the right track

Reading some of the replies here I think it's not fair to dump the "regular" advice on Duraham. I don't know him personally, but I see his posts(replies pop up on some threads form time to time, and so far he seemed quite experienced in the game and it's mechanics (from my point of view at least); in fact that's the only reason why I read this very post here, it was started by someone I consider "worthy" to be read.

Aside from ThatOneGuy with the asteroid placement, everything else sounds like lame advices, like copy and paste from other posts. This is not a complain post about the Phantom or any other ship, it is about certain upgrades. Really, the ACD is like a no-brainer, FFG could just as well have the effect incorporated into every Phantom and have it's points be 4 higher. Given, the low PS can't make use of it, but nobody plays the low PS Phantoms (I tried a few times, not good).

I played something like 100 - 120 games so far, I win more often than not. I have not lost a single game when used the Phantom. In some games the Phantom was killed, but the opponents dedicated so much effort and firepower to that it was easy to finish him off with the rest of my squad.

I came to the point where I don't play the Phantom in friendly games anymore, because it's a one sided game then. So I see Durahams point, and I believe he is right! Certain upgrades/crews etc move the game into a "corner".

Really, the ACD is like a no-brainer, FFG could just as well have the effect incorporated into every Phantom and have it's points be 4 higher.

But they didn't because they wanted it to use up the Modification option.

No matter how you dress it up, this is just another 'Sky falling - Phantom is OP' thread.

Really, why doesn't someone spell it out for us. Who is Duraham, and what is his claim to good flying?

(not that I dont think he's good, but lets stop beating around the bush here).

I think the better question is this:

4 ties vs decked out Whisper. Can they win?

3 x-wings should win vs Fat Han - escorts.

There are higher point values vs a lower, instead of the sily 2 ties vs falcon concept.

yeah, i agree, at that point, you've lost the game already.

Really, why doesn't someone spell it out for us. Who is Duraham, and what is his claim to good flying?

(not that I dont think he's good, but lets stop beating around the bush here).

I disagree with a lot of what Duraham has to say. But he's been around this game longer and demonstrated far more ability than the vast majority of the twits around here whose only canned response is "Learn2Fly Noob Derp!"

Let's not beat around the bush - who is Blail Berg, and what's his claim to good flying? Who's z0m4d, and what's HIS claim to good flying? Who's nikk whyte? Redblock? Why aren't you making snide comments and demanding to see THEIR credentials? I think we need to have one massive uberthread where everyone who ever wants to post on the board can lay out their entire history in the game and be judged as worthy or not by the community.

Or maybe we can just leave it to your punctuationally-challenged self, since that's really your point there, isn't it?

Did anyone else giggle at the thread title?

"Much" is mathematically impossible to measure. I don't normally care too many ( ) about the difference between qualitative and quantitative, but the irony of the title got me.

Well like Theorist predicted back when the Phantom dropped, the game has devolved into pretty much anti-Phantom and Phantom builds. In the subset of anti-Phantom builds the Falcon is the strongest build (probably too strong due to C3P0). We just have to wait for the meta to evolve again past Wave 5 (Decimators are the strongest hard counter to Phantoms to the point where I think they'll disappear completely from the competitive scene.)

At very least, what the Designers intended, the end of the TIE swarm, has come to pass.