I'm not sure why it took me this long to fincally consider the logistics of the local Imperial Navy and its civilian counterparts, but...

A sector fleet is supposed to be 50-75 ships. On the "average" I'd say that's probably 10 battleships, grand cruisers, and/or battle cruisers, 20 cruisers and/or light cruisers, and 40 escort vessels for most sector fleets, with a lot of caveats and exceptions.

Watch Est-27, or "Battlefleet" Koronus is supposed to have several battle cruisers, a dozen cruisers (with Lunars dominating), several light cruisers, and several squadrons of escorts.

That would mean that "Battlefleet" Koronus would contain most of the ships of Battlefleet Calixis. Of course, Calixis, being close to the Eye of Terror, and given the additional duty of watching The Maw, might be considerably reinforced. Then again, it has been stated that the Battlefleet was severely depleted by the Margin Crusade. All in all, it would seem that Battlefleet Calixis is quite a bit larger than it should be.

Also, the Imperial Navy is only about 11% the size of the Merchant Navy. I don't recall the relative size of Rogue Trader fleets as a percentage of the Merchant Navy.

So the Sector Fleet "should" have 50-75 vessels, and the Merchant Navy should ahve about 500-750. Of course, Calixis is rather distant from Terra, on the opposite side of the Eye of Terror from Terra, and has only beeen settled for a couple thousand year. This would probably mean that Chartist Captains are a smaller number than the "average."

So what does all this mean? Well, FFG sources put the number of Rogue Traders in the Koronus Expanse in the hundreds, and at least 3 of those Rogue Traders have considerable fleets.

These numbers just don't jive. Anyone care to take a shot at the problem? In another recent thread, many of us were comfortable with the RT fleets of Koronus numbering around 500. Given the size of an "average" sector fleet, these numbers also don't jive.

It definitely gives me food for thought for the next game I might run.

I don't really see the problem? Battlefleet Koronus is intended as a pro-active defense for things that could make it into the Calixis Sector through the Maw, and providing overwatch for the Jericho Reach gate. Acting as a watchdog for Rogue Trader fleets makes the whole deal of being a Rogue Trader somewhat redundant.

I was comfortable with Chorda/Winterscale having fleets around 70/120, but they had been engaged in a cold war for a very long time and had been buying up other Rogue Trader's services for their own pointless paranoid ends. Also they don't get Battleships, which are ridiculously powerful on their own.

A sector fleet is supposed to be 50-75 ships. On the "average" I'd say that's probably 10 battleships, grand cruisers, and/or battle cruisers, 20 cruisers and/or light cruisers, and 40 escort vessels for most sector fleets, with a lot of caveats and exceptions.

Anyway, clearly those numbers are out of whack as you mention, like so much else in this setting, but I was wondering if there's a simple fix:

That's the number of Capital ships (cruisers and above).

Who counts escorts (raiders/frigattes)?

When people say Merchant Navy i hope they aren't considering these to be 100% Rogue Traders? Ships operated by those outside the Imperial Navy will include:

• System defense and transport ships (non-warp capable)
• Mechanicus supply, transport, utility and 'exploration' vessels (i.e. fully capable of combat)
• Chartist ships, that is those without Navigators and Astropaths that travel only in real space and take decades or even centuries to complete their trade routes
• Inquisitorial vessels such as Black Ships, transports, scouts etc
• Astartes operate their own vessels and while they aren't technically allowed a fleet beyond 'transport ships' they get around this by making their transport ships the size of cruisers or bigger and massively armouring and up-gunning them.

When people say Merchant Navy i hope they aren't considering these to be 100% Rogue Traders? Ships operated by those outside the Imperial Navy will include:

• System defense and transport ships (non-warp capable)
• Mechanicus supply, transport, utility and 'exploration' vessels (i.e. fully capable of combat)
• Chartist ships, that is those without Navigators and Astropaths that travel only in real space and take decades or even centuries to complete their trade routes
• Inquisitorial vessels such as Black Ships, transports, scouts etc
• Astartes operate their own vessels and while they aren't technically allowed a fleet beyond 'transport ships' they get around this by making their transport ships the size of cruisers or bigger and massively armouring and up-gunning them.

Astartes are also allowed ships for "necessary support". How that is interpreted varies wildly amongst Chapters, but is usually interpreted quite broadly.

I have to admit, I'd always interpreted (and seen it interpreted) the 50-75 ships as capital ships/ships-of-the-line, rather than total starships.

Under the 40k definitions, that would make it 50-75 ships of Light Cruiser size and up (with maybe a 2-4 ship division of battleships at the core, maybe another of Grand Cruisers, a couple of 6-8 ship squadrons of battlecruisers, and then the balance in cruisers and light cruisers), with say, a squadron of escorts (either frigates or destroyers) per cruiser division (possibly even per ship), and fleet train of tankers, colliers, freighters and personnel transports in proportion (an aggressive force mix actually requires more capital ships, destroyers and support ships than a "peacekeeping", which will be heavy on light cruisers and frigates for patrols).

Granted, much of the fleet auxilia is going to be drawn from the Merchant Navy, with really only munitions colliers and dedicated troop transports likely to be directly part of the Imperial Navy.

All of that is ignoring the Reserve fleet, too, which may well represent anywhere between 30% of the total tonnage in a Sector to 2-3, hell even 4x the number of hulls on active duty. And the reserve will be mixed between airless-but-intact hulks in graveyard orbits, through mothballed ships with a skeleton caretaker crew to a ready reserve flotilla which should in theory be ready to set off to join or support a regular fleet at a moments' notice (needing only to top off fuel bunkers and other consumables). How well theory stands up to practice is a wholly different matter, of course, but that's always the case.

The fluff in BFG supports a similar interpretation - they seem to count everything by "ships-of-the-line" which means Light Cruisers or larger. So I'd go with what Alasseo posted.

Merchant Navy is a more difficult question, because it's not really defined much of anywhere. If we assume they're using something roughly akin to how it's used in the United Kingdom, then it's "Imperial Registered Transport Ships" So this would include Charter Captains, Free Captains and Rogue Traders, but not PDF, Astartes or Inquisitorial ships (not cargo) and not Mechanicus ships (Not Imperial Registry). Likewise, it wouldn't include transports that are actually part of the Imperial Navy.

Of course, if it's 10x the size of the "Navy", then its 10x the number of ships of any kind, rather than just ships of the line. This could easily be in the several thousands, though the way it's described, the vast majority of these are closer to frigate tonnage then cruiser tonnage.

[Aside: For my own game, I said there are about fifty Rogue Traders "operating" in the expanse, although because of obligations/ship repair/other opportunities there's typically only about a dozen present at any given time. I also said that the majority of them have less than a dozen ships, not including sub-contracted free captains.]

Tenebrae, that number comes from somewhere in BFG, but I don't recall exactly where, and a quick perusal didn't enlighten me any. It's been some years since I've played it.

And of course, anyone is free to interpret that 50-75 number as capital ships, but I don't think that's the general consenus, at least not on other forums I've participated in or even read. The quote is something like "50-75 ships of varying size," and that doesn't sound like "only capital ships" to me, though I suppose the argument can be made.

And of course the Merchant Navy isn't composed entirely of Rogue Traders, but then system ships and monitors also wouldn't be considered in those numbers, as it would only count warp-capable ships or at least those making interstallar runs (because it certainly does count those taking decades or even centuries to complete their routes).

I think Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisitorial ships are an insignificant fraction of the total, which is why they're discounted in the sources.

Tenebrae, that number comes from somewhere in BFG, but I don't recall exactly where, and a quick perusal didn't enlighten me any. It's been some years since I've played it.

And of course, anyone is free to interpret that 50-75 number as capital ships, but I don't think that's the general consenus, at least not on other forums I've participated in or even read. The quote is something like "50-75 ships of varying size," and that doesn't sound like "only capital ships" to me, though I suppose the argument can be made.

Actually, the consensus not to long ago on this very forum was that the 50-75 ships were capital, as it made more sense. See this link for further details.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109360-star-ship-build-times/

Actually, maybe that isn't the correct thread. Maybe this one.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/98039-scaling-the-imperium/?hl=%2Bcapital+%2Bships#entry969374

or this one

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109360-star-ship-build-times/ (same as first link)

However, the middle link with capital in it seems to be the correct one. Hit control F and search for 50-60 will skip to the part where it's quoted from BFG. The last link isn't too relevant, but I thought it was interesting and it could help persuade an argument for either issue.

I seem to recall reading about the Merchant Navy along with BFG's Heavy Transports. I think there was a whole Rogue Trader section somewhere there.

So it can't just be ten times the line ships, it's ten times the total warships. Which makes sense considering the sheer scale of the galaxy.

That might the middle link above. Somehow though, I saved over one of the links above and have two of the same thing. *shrugs*

The BFG Document you're looking for is called Fabric of the Imperium , which details the use of Rogue Traders in the game. Of course, It only details Rogue Traders and their escorts. Also doesn't say much on size other than "millions" and "vast majority of ships"

Heavy transporters, IIRC are in the Ships of the Imperium. I have the file on my home computer, somewhere. All I remember at this time is they count as 2 transports in the game, and they're kinda cheesy if you play Mechanicus (which I do ). Neither of which helps the conversation at hand.

Personally i ignore most of the fluff from BFG sources - now that its a discontinued line any contradictions in more recent materials supercede it. I mean BFG was a game focusing on large-scale, high-end capital ship warfare whereas RT is a game that if it focuses on it at all tends to focus on small-scale, low-end capital ship warfare.

Nameless, you mention the consensus here on this forum, and I said the consenus on other forums. I probably shouldn't have used the word consensus as there's plenty of arguments on other forums, too. The 40k wiki uses the capital ship interpretation for the 50-75 number but that doesn't jive logistically.

First, there's the size of the Imperium. IF, the "average" sector is a 200 ly cube, then the galaxy contains some 10 million sectors, which any map of the 40k galaxy shows is mostly Imperium "controlled." Yet, plenty of fluff alludes to a mere million, or sometimes millions of, inhabited systems. Another way to look at the problem would be to ask how many systems are in an average sector. I've heard numbers between 50-200 bandied about before, with a median around 100. With a mere million inhabited systems in the galaxy that would mean around 10k sectors, or .001 of the main galactic disk. Something is wrong here, either the numbers or the map.

Of those, how many are forge worlds, imperial worlds, or simply worlds industrial enough to build a capital ship? Please don't bring up the single example of a primitive world building a cruiser. The thought of that being sustainable is preposterous. Let's stick with real numbers. Now, if a sector has, say 20 worlds capable of production (and that seems quite high, as it doesn't leave enough agri-worlds to sustain the forge and hive worlds), and that output is 50 capital ships per century, how will the Imperial Navy maintain its numbers, even in the face of a miniscule attrition rate of .02? I mean, the loss of one capital ship per year is breaking even, and that's allowing for a very high production rate. What's now building the merchant ships and escorts?

Nameless, in the threads you posted there, some people were even making the suggestion of vast fleets of patrol vessels making stops at uninhabited systems, deep space trade lanes, common warp stops, etc., on top of visiting the inhabited systems. If anyone has ever played a naval wargame with similar concepts then they know that patrol ships are the first thing to get gimped in the face of heavy losses. After that, it's a constant juggle between battle squadrons and escort squadrons.

The Imperium is in a constant state of war. How many crusades are being fought at any given time? Some of them just disappear in their entirety (e.g. Margin). I don't really want to sit down and figure out world types and percentages, production rates v. attrition rates, total coverage, etc. It's just that the 50-75 figure for sector capital ships seems unsustainable.

If you have different figures, then please enlighten me.

One part of those threads I really liked is the notion of "a million inhabited worlds" being just a figure of speech. I've always considered that figure ridiculously low. I'd settle for a million inhabited systems "officially on record" (I consider that low but within a magnitude of error), but most developed systems are going to have multiple inhabited planets, moons, asteroids, etc., and that "million worlds" figure flies in the face of what is reasonable.

Oh, and thanks for the above links Nameless. They are good reading. I must have missed them while travelling this summer.

First, there's the size of the Imperium. IF, the "average" sector is a 200 ly cube, then the galaxy contains some 10 million sectors, which any map of the 40k galaxy shows is mostly Imperium "controlled." Yet, plenty of fluff alludes to a mere million, or sometimes millions of, inhabited systems. Another way to look at the problem would be to ask how many systems are in an average sector. I've heard numbers between 50-200 bandied about before, with a median around 100. With a mere million inhabited systems in the galaxy that would mean around 10k sectors, or .001 of the main galactic disk. Something is wrong here, either the numbers or the map.

Basically, GW's authors have been pulling numbers out of their rear-most part, even more so in the old days. And it's not an isolated problem, it's a very common trope .

I didn't say you had to agree with it. Was justing providing additional resources in case you were leaning one way or another. Anyhoot, the fluff changes constantly from source to source, so go with what feels right in your game. I always have to remind myself this is a sci-fi game, and as long as everyone is having fun, and not getting brain aneurisms due to things not making sense, then I'm doing something right.

P.S. Just accomplishing my good samaritan duties for the week. But your welcome anyways

On a note on ships and whats been written in the RPG material...

I saw somewhere mention that there is a Charter, List, or Record (in Port Wander) of all the Ships that have gone out from Port - and if a ship is no longer on said list - then it doesn't exist anymore and is deemed as lost or destroyed (again I read this somewhere) - can anyone point me out to what I actually read - Ive been trying to find it since last weekend lol

Thanks

Morbid

I've never heard of such a thing but would be equally interested in seeing it. Bean-counting is one of my many hobbies.

A lot depends on the scale you want to play at - if you interpret everything at the lower end of the numbers individual ships become more important - at the other end you are encouraging the players to form fleets which are poorly handled by the rules and the ship combat system.

In my interpretation I had about a dozen naval ships based at port wander with regular exchanges with a few ships at footfall. In the major systems in the maw you might see a patrol once a month and beyond that you will barely see a naval ship except at the Jericho sector gateway.

I can see battlefleet Koronus gradually diminished over time as they are re-assigned to the meat grinder that is the Jericho reach - the Koronus sector just isn't important enough or under enough threat to rate rapid replacement from fleet command - it will become increasingly lawless and the Rogue Traders will have an ever greater role to play in how the sector evolves.

No worries - I keep digging - when I do find it - I'll post it up for you guys to see - it was pretty cool as far as "horror" goes

Morbid

Docentthat go against that ships have been assigned to Battlefleet Koronus so they can't be easily stolen for the crusades and that both have seen growth as exploration of the expanse.

I think "Battlefleet Koronus" is stupidly safe from the risk of being hijacked for the Angevin Folly; no matter how badly they need ships to fight in the Reach, the Koronus Battlefleet is mandated to protect this side of the warp gate, to insure it remains hidden, and to be prepared to hold back, and/or destroy anything the Jericho side can't keep in. When the Hive Fleet reaches the gate, they'll need any and every ship on the Maw side, just to blast whatever feelers come through, while they figure out if they can shut it back down, because while I believe that the Expanse could survive some Tau (I'm writing crap for them already getting there), and Chaos is already a standing problem in Koronus, if any real chunks of a Tyranid Hive Fleet were to get through, they'd win and eat the Expanse as surely as they will eat the Reach. Purely my opinion, of course, but I see the Nids as a substantially higher threat than anything else in the Reach, possibly excluding the Necrons, who might also already be in the Expanse (funny, when I know that the Tyranid Codex is currently one of the weakest forces in 40K, due to terrible writing and third party shenanigans).

So yeah, Battlefleet Koronus will be left alone, to insure that this side of the gate remains safe, and in Imperial hands, and to cover anything that has to run through it, or blast anything that tries, without prior authorization. Being so close to the weak Calixis Sector, they can't afford to leave anything vulnerable, with no real Space Marines or Guard regiments to call upon, in the worst case scenario.

I wonder, if I were running 40K RPG, if I could force myself to maintain the "secrecies" of the system, such as:

1. "The Imperium launches wars all over, but this one, in the Jericho Reach, is a secret, and we can't tell anyone."
2. "Warp gates exist, and some people even use them, but this one, that isn't even in real Imperial space, and leads to another such place, we can't let anyone know about."
3. "The Warp is hated and feared, and rightly so, but daemons are real , and we can't let people know that, in a galaxy filled with threats to mankind, this one is really threatening. We have a group to fight them, but no one can know about them even though every bad guy does. Let the Grey Knights remain the greatest secret of all, though only from ourselves. If you see them, it doesn't really matter who you are; you will be killed, be you Guardsman, Adepta Sororitas (they might even wear you as armor paint), or anything less than an Inquisitor or Space Marine. Then you are worth enough to just be mind-scrubbed."

So many of these are just stupid to me, having none of the fear/risk involved, and a nearly omniscient view of their universe, but I'm not sure if I'd let my players know some of some of these things, or try to hide it. People know little of the Space Marines, but they know of them, so what if they might know a bit of one more Chapter? The Imperium decrees that all the galaxy is Humanity's, so what's one more war front? The gate I sort of get, but telling the RTs of the Expanse might get them some very useful assets for their war, if not also some very risky, iffy assets. Luckily, my friends aren't into 40K lore, for the most part, so I'd probably have to tell them for them to know, thus I'd decide what they, the player, know, for a change.

While I'm not sure what the fluff say, or if there is significant fluff establishing the sizes of fleets. However, I generally place the relevant battlefleets are these rough ranges.

Battlefleet Calixis: 50 Capital ships (Cruisers being the lion's share) 4-5 times that amount in escorts. This number may be significantly reduced by losses suffered during the Margin Crusade.

Battlefleet Koronus: 10 Capital ships, 3-4 times that in escorts. The number of escorts may be significantly greater as the Koronus expanse is a deceptively large area of space that is, in essence, the wild west.

The issue of Rogue Trader fleets/vessels in the expanse is a much less specific one. I do not under any circumstances believe that any Rogue Trader has a fleet anywhere near 100 vessels. 50 would be pushing it for even the wealthiest dynasties. Even then, a large chunk of those vessels would be transports that do nothing but trade. Add to that the many, many smaller dynasties whose fleets can be counted on 1 or 2 hands, and the fleets of Rogue Traders greatly outstrip the Imperial Navy presence in the expanse.