Well if I roll three red dice against five green and get two attacks through anyway then the stealth device was largely a waste of points.

It's not hate but a simple fact on low agility ships you'll lose the device quickly and you can spend the points better, buy a bigger gun upgrade the hull there are simply better options.

Well if I roll three red dice against five green and get two attacks through anyway then the stealth device was largely a waste of points.

It's not hate but a simple fact on low agility ships you'll lose the device quickly and you can spend the points better, buy a bigger gun upgrade the hull there are simply better options.

Well, that's the point. It wasn't a waste if it helped to prevent al least one single damage point to your ship, which is equivalent to your ship enduring one more point of damage (= Hull Upgrade, 3 points).

People somehow has developed the wrong mentality that "If you don't keep the stealth device up for the whole match, it has been a waste". I don't share that opinion.

The only scenario which truly makes Stealth device a waste, is when you roll all blanks in your first defence roll of the match.

With Roark in play, and Jan w/ Swarm Tactics, I'm not sure if you really need Veteran Instincts on Kyle. I would try to rejigger things a bit to get him a different EPT. Heck, even determination or adrenaline rush would be better with that build IMO. Hawks aren't super maneuverable, so changing a red to a white could be useful, and Determination could save the day in a 3 ship list.

Here's my suggested version:

Jan + Blaster + Swarm + HU + Recon - 37

Kyle + Blaster + Wingman + HU + Recon + MC Title - 36

Roark + Blaster + Chewie - 27

Total - 100

Everybody shoots at PS 12.

19 total hit points after two hull upgrades and chewie.

Kyle has wingman to get rid of Jan's stress.

Roark will be the heavy hitter. He will take a target lock (hopefully) then get focus from kyle and extra attack dice from jan.

I have yet to see a list that has trouble killing a HWK 290 per round. Are you sure you will deal enough damage in 4 rounds?

are you talking about an average statistical number of firing rounds within a timed tournament match?

I'd dare only do this at a casual game where we have a little time. Also, some of the damage hopefully will come from asteroids a little bit. though... i think having the blaster turret would be nice.

Honestly... i feel like blaster turret would be plenty balanced currently if they took off the using-up of the focus to do the attack.

it creates opportunity gain by letting you take any crew and honestly 4 points for a range 2 3 dice attack on the already expensive HWK or Y-wing seems fine.

I never play timed. For me, the autoblaster calls for a recon specialist. The trouble with the HWK is, that it is utterly predictable so you always fight on the worst possible terms.

It looks like it would be fun to fly, but don't expect the fun too last that long. The problem with the HWK is that they die fast, too fast. I would at least change the SU to HU to give you a bit longer longevity. Also, this squad isn't going to be putting out a ton of hate. A huge drawback is the inability to do any damage at range 3. Usually your first engagement is at range 3. After that engagement you are going to have an uphill battle. Maybe an engine upgrade here or there to close the gap.

The reason the 3 elite X-wing lists are somewhat viable is that they can kill a ship usually before most of your opponents get to shoot. With this build you aren't going to be killiing most ships in a round.

Maybe with scum you might be able to run all HWKs, and it be a viable list.

I don't know why so much hate against stealth devices.

As long as you roll even one single evade result (which is likely Rolling 3 defense dice counting stealth) in your whole defence roll, the stealth device has already been a total success. That single evade result IS the stealth device... Because without it, you'd have rolled all blanks. Even if you lose it by being hit with the very first attack, that single evade result already has already paid off as much as a 'hull upgrade' which BTW has the same cost.

And if you invest in your defense by saving one focus token, (easy with Recon specialist or Moldy Crow title) a Stealth device can easily repay you by double or triple its original value. Everytime you negate all damage keeping the device, is like recieving a 'hull upgrade card' for free in the next round.

It's not hatred towards it since it is a good upgrade, you just have a better chance of getting to keep it and not get it knocked off the 1st round of shooting if you put it in a ship that has 3 defense die already. Putting it on a 2 die ship is seriously going to see it get taken away very early most likely. Again it's a good upgrade when put on the right ship. I forget the site that does the numbers but if you were to input a 3 dice attack against a 3 dice defense you'll see the probability of a hit getting through is pretty good. Now compare it to 3 attack against 4 evade and you'll see it's a lot better odds of a hit not getting through. There's so many variables but generally you don't put a stealth device on a 2 dice ship or lower because it most likely will not do much good for you.

How about the following.

Kyle, Predator, Blaster, Moldy Crow, Recon Spec, Engine Upgrade 38

Jan, Swarm Tactics, Chewie, Ion Turret 36

Roark, Blaster, Recon Spec 26

100 pts.

Interesting idea, but I think Jan wants that Engine Upgrade more than Kyle. He has to take a Focus action to keep his Focus token reserve high. Jan is forced into green maneuvers most of the time, so the Engine Upgrade really helps her to reposition.

The writeup for this is awesomely hilarious. I'm not sure how well a list of 3 shorter range softer punchers would do, even with the 360% arc, but it would be fun!

...I honestly want to eat a list alive with this just to say Rec Spec. wasn't a requirement.

So here's a 100% HWK-290 list I put together... And I think it's preeeeetty nasty..! But I wanted to ask you guys about it.

NOTE: I was working 100% with cards I own, and nothing else.

Roark Garnet: 19, PS4

Recon Specialist: 3

Stealth Device: 3

Blaster Turret: 4

Jan Ors: 25, PS8

Ion Cannon Turret: 5

Stealth Device: 3

Swarm Tactics: 2

Nien Nunb: 1

Kyle Katarn: 21, PS6

Blaster Turret: 4

Moldy Crow: 3

Saboteur: 2

Veteran Instincts: 1

Stealth device: 3

Point Total: 99 (Retaining that initiative!)

You may just be working with what you have and I haven't read everything else but here's my short take on things:

1. Stealth Devices should be traded for Hull Upgrades. Even with the SD the HWK is likely to get hit and lose it so rarely is it better than a hull upgrade. Adding hull upgrades has the bonus of putting the ship above the Stress level for Flechette Torps as well.

2. Where is the Recon Specialist for Kyle??? He NEEDS Focus tokens both to fire his Turret and to pass out to others. When he's got three ways to lose Focus (give it away, fire turret, or spend normally) I don't know how the Crow will ever get ahead to have any tokens in reserve.

3. While I can't really complain about Roark (besides that SD) as he's got the Blaster+Recon synergy going I sometime will wonder if that's going to be enough.

Kyle doesn't need Rec. Spec. He can get tokens via actions. Fly the list slowly for two turns.

On Roark, no need. But for Kyle, he needs to be stacking that focus. Blaster Turret is what demands Recon Specialist because it chews through focus tokens for ammo. He uses two focus tokens a round, one to shoot, and one to use his ability, and that's assuming he doesn't focus his hits and defence rolls.

Without Recon Specialist, you're spending your focus token every round just to shoot. Kyle's ability, Mouldy Crow's stacking ability, once you hit combat they're completely wasted. Focus Factory Kyle's over 30 points but without RecSpec you might as well just take a Blaster Turret Rebel Operative. Saboteur does nothing for you, you need that RecSpec on Kyle if he's got a Blaster Turret.

As long as you roll even one single evade result (which is likely Rolling 3 defense dice counting stealth) in your whole defence roll, the stealth device has already been a total success. That single evade result IS the stealth device...

Or either of the HWK's two natural dice. The bonus Stealth Dice could be either of those two blanks. If you want to see what that stealth dice is doing, roll it separately.
For Stealth Device to pay off, it has to eat two points of damage where the basic agility wouldn't: the Stealth Device is the probability gap between evading a hit with your base dice and with your extra die. It's main advantage is the psychological impact it has on the opponent.

I don't get why saying SD on a low agility ship means i hate it.

I think some folks are missing that this isn't designed to work with what's been proven to work and what everyone else does.

I'm trying something different on purpose.

I love me some HWKs, usually for mods I put shield upgrade on them, I'm not a huge fan of ships with 1 shield, the more the merrier.

As long as you roll even one single evade result (which is likely Rolling 3 defense dice counting stealth) in your whole defence roll, the stealth device has already been a total success. That single evade result IS the stealth device...

Or either of the HWK's two natural dice. The bonus Stealth Dice could be either of those two blanks. If you want to see what that stealth dice is doing, roll it separately.

That's not possible because Stealth Device ups your agility value. As long as the HWK has SD equipped, its agility value is 3... Not 2+1.

So, as long as 1 evade result is present in those 3 dice, it is Stealth device which made it possible... Since it changed the probability outcomes of your defence roll from the start.

Saying: 'This one is the die from Stealth Device' is only mind-cheating yourself into false result readings.

Sometimes it's good to defy "metagame wisdom" but Blaster Turret Kyle needing Recon Specialist is just plain common sense. Without it, he's using two focus a round and gaining one. Surely you can see the problem there? He might stack one or two before he hits combat but he'll run out very quickly, and then he's got a choice between an unfocused Blaster Turret shot or using his ability and shooting with at best his primary and at worst not at all. Suddenly, Mouldy Crow is 3 points wasted: he's not stacking focus tokens and doesn't need it. If he wants to stack focus tokens he's got to spend rounds doing nothing but shooting with his 1 dice primary. He's flying a HWK so that Saboteur is useless: no sane pilot will go to Range 1 of him deliberately and everything up from a Y-wing can easily outmaneuver him. It's not a case of him not being "optimized", it's a case of him rapidly turning into a deadweight with his only advantage over Rebel Operative with just Blaster Turret being pilot skill. I don't know about you but I wouldn't spend ten odd points on going from PS2 to PS8.

Without Recon Specialist, Blaster Turret Kyle does not have enough focus tokens to fuel his abilities, let alone to modify his dice (which is a major advantage of the focus tower.) Drop Blaster Turret or add Recon Specialist. Otherwise you're looking at the equivalent of Echo equipped with Munitions Failsafe and Expose: wasted points.

That's not possible because Stealth Device ups your agility value. As long as the HWK has SD equipped, its agility value is 3... Not 2+1.

So, as long as 1 evade result is present in those 3 dice, it is Stealth device which made it possible... Since it changed the probability outcomes of your defence roll from the start.

Saying: 'This one is the die from Stealth Device' is only mind-cheating yourself into false result readings.

If you were rolling one big dice, sure, but you're rolling 3 different random number generators here. I'll explain why you're wrong here when I get back unless someone else does it for me.

I'm a huge fan of the HWK's and Kyle Katarn. I try to squeeze him into my lists when I can. You need to realize that this list has some incredibly HARD counters. 1st up is dark curse. When he is on the board your blaster turrets are useless. So now you're left trying to plink at him with your 1 attack dice primary. Second is Carnor Jax, When he is in range 1 he neuters kyle and makes the turrets useless.

Like I said, I very, very rarely get to play XWMG. It might actually be some number of months before I get to even try this list.

Weave through the missiles. ^^

... (Crosses fingers for an ace combat fan) "oh just weave through the missiles. What are you, nuts?!"

I wrecked that quote. I'm on mobile. Apologies.

I wrecked that quote. I'm on mobile. Apologies.

*force chokes* apology accepted Nikk whyte.

I think you should go with "A Parliament of Owls." With three ships it's more like a scuffle than a murder. Besides, you stole my name for my interceptor list.

Kyle doesn't need Rec. Spec. He can get tokens via actions. Fly the list slowly for two turns.

Kyle gets 1 token per action. He can EASILY use FOUR per turn by handing one out, firing the blaster turret, using a focus to modify the attack results, and then using at least one focus defensively each turn which I'll admit becomes a bit more likely when you have the SD equipped. "Fly the list slowly" just doesn't work that well if Kyle is trying to bank Focus tokens one at a time.

I should also point out that Saboteur is also COMPLETELY in opposition of what your stated goal for Kyle is. If he spends the action for that it will mean no action for Focus which in turn screws him that much more. When you play Kyle he basically has only one action that he should perform and that is Focus. If he has a Blaster Turret that is even MORE important that he use Focus while also hoping he has some way to get ahead in the token count.

I think some folks are missing that this isn't designed to work with what's been proven to work and what everyone else does.

I'm trying something different on purpose.

If you are just trying something different to be different then I'm going to tell you there is no need to come around here asking for advice or trying to brag about your "new" creation. The advice you are getting is all designed to improve the squadrons normal performance and that is based on stuff that is "proven to work" better than what you're currently using. If I could put it another way say you're raising an army; what you're doing is outfitting it with antique rifles instead of getting them the assault rifles which would dramatically increase performance even if everything else stayed the same.

As long as you roll even one single evade result (which is likely Rolling 3 defense dice counting stealth) in your whole defence roll, the stealth device has already been a total success. That single evade result IS the stealth device...

Or either of the HWK's two natural dice. The bonus Stealth Dice could be either of those two blanks. If you want to see what that stealth dice is doing, roll it separately.

That's not possible because Stealth Device ups your agility value. As long as the HWK has SD equipped, its agility value is 3... Not 2+1.

So, as long as 1 evade result is present in those 3 dice, it is Stealth device which made it possible... Since it changed the probability outcomes of your defence roll from the start.

Saying: 'This one is the die from Stealth Device' is only mind-cheating yourself into false result readings.

It's true that SD ups your agility value but it only marginally increases the PERFORMANCE of your agility dice. Roll 2 dice and you have 6/16 Evade Results while throwing 3 increases that to 9/24 results. Adding a die doesn't increase the chances of rolling an Evade on any given die although that 3rd die does give you three chances at it instead of just two. Occasionally, it will be that "extra" die that gets you the result you need to pull through but there are plenty of other times where it is just one more die getting thrown to no effect.

To say that Stealth Device is effective if a ship rolls ANY evades while it is equipped must mean the ship has ZERO defense dice to begin with. Otherwise you're saying that when shooting at a SD equipped Interceptor at R3 and through an obstruction if that interceptor only rolls one Evade is HAD to come from the SD and all of those other 5 dice are always ineffective meaning the ship would always get hit if it didn't have a SD. I think most people have see 5 dice roll a single evade to know that it can happen even without a SD present. Similarly, there are people who still roll all blanks despite having a SD.