I mean inconsistent with the universe of starwars. If the force is all present and the main mystical energy field, it's a touch inconsistent, cluttered one might say, to add a secondary magick into the mix. It cheapens the force and adds doubt to the main moralistic leaning of the genre, that there is a right and a wrong, a light and a dark.

A magick, broadly defined, doesn't adhere to these moralities, and thus complicates the setting greatly.

But again, we're at an impass regarding canon, and that has basically ground the actual discussion about heal/harm to a halt.

At the time the lost episodes and season 6 were being written and recorded, Lucas was planning his departure. So his involvement is questionable.

In any case, my point is that despite the nightsister saying that they use magick, it may not be magick. It's a bit like saying the jedi are evil, because from anikin's point of view the jedi are evil. It was stated by an in universe character so it must be true. Of course that's hyperbole, but all I'm saying is consider the source, consider the internal consistency of the setting, and for my buck it's not magick.

I suppose though, in practical terms, it doesn't really matter. For this discussion, let's ignore the nightsisters, as if the use magick, it isn't modeled in the game.

I agree with a lot you're saying and see where you're coming from, but yes, we simply disagree on aspects and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.

The Force is described by Obi-wan Kenobi as "an energy field that surrounds all living things." I don't think it has ever been described as a "main mystical energy field" or that there are no other supernatural things in Star Wars. I think that's pure assumption. I don't think it cheapens the Force. I think it actually enriches the universe as a whole by saying there are lots of things out there in this vast galaxy, you can't just put it all in a black and white box. The Jedi and Sith are important, as is their struggle, as is the Force itself, but there has never been anything saying it's the only 'mystical' thing there is in the entire galaxy.

If we want to talk about bad writing... Some people believe in Force-suppressing lizards... now I think THAT cheapens the Force.

So it comes back to... should a dark side character be whole cloth prevented from using a particular aspect of the force?

What does that do to the dark side character, and what is the implication for something like that?

As I've said, I find that this railroads dark side characters, is in contrast to the other force powers (such as bind and protect/unleash), and places more emphasis on the morality tracker (I'm not saying this is good or bad).

I think it makes perfect sense that anyone has the capability to use bind/unleash. The dark side is easy. "Quicker, easier, more seductive," said Yoda. Anyone sensitive to the Force can tap into it. It wants to tempt people to use it, embrace it, and fall to it. The light side is hard. It's the difficult, selfless path to walk. I think powers that are distinctly "light" in nature should not be able to be used by the dark side. There is no discipline needed or cost to them. No price. No risk. They can't "fall to the light side." A light side user can tap into and use the easily accessible dark side powers, but in turn they pay a hefty price for it. Sometimes the ultimate price and lose themselves completely to it.

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

So it is acceptable for this one force power to be denied to a dark side character simply because it's written differently?

Put another way, why can't a dark side character fueling the power only with the light side heal? What is our justification besides dark can't heal (which is very questionable in the first place)

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

But what would starbuck be? Metaphysical questions abound.

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

But what would starbuck be? Metaphysical questions abound.

Original Battlestar Galactica? He's a Human Ace of course. New Battlestar? She's an uber-advanced an Droid Ace. She just doesn't know it yet until she runs into her twin Guri.

So it is acceptable for this one force power to be denied to a dark side character simply because it's written differently?

Put another way, why can't a dark side character fueling the power only with the light side heal? What is our justification besides dark can't heal (which is very questionable in the first place)

To me it's because they've fully lost themselves to the darkness, they can no longer find it within themselves to selflessly heal. They have to draw the life force from someone else to do it, because they no longer have the inner tranquility necessary to be able to heal by themselves. That's just how I see it.

Not that this is necessarily anything about it, but I'm not a fan of some of the eu mary sue "grey jedi" that run around mixing the dark side and the light. The light side is good. The dark side is evil. That is made endlessly clear.

So it is acceptable for this one force power to be denied to a dark side character simply because it's written differently?

Put another way, why can't a dark side character fueling the power only with the light side heal? What is our justification besides dark can't heal (which is very questionable in the first place)

To me it's because they've fully lost themselves to the darkness, they can no longer find it within themselves to selflessly heal. They have to draw the life force from someone else to do it, because they no longer have the inner tranquility necessary to be able to heal by themselves. That's just how I see it.

Not that this is necessarily anything about it, but I'm not a fan of some of the eu mary sue "grey jedi" that run around mixing the dark side and the light. The light side is good. The dark side is evil. That is made endlessly clear.

How does that reconcile with being able to heal using dark side results on the die? Are we assuming that the characters morality determines their dark leanings and not the actual result on the die?

I understand what you mean, but I think that focusing on the character as dark sider, and not the actual die results is a flawed focus. it's saying that your past actions dictate more what you're capable of than your present actions.

Although, some people may feel redemption in this version is too easy. certainly this edition has the easiest redemption of any star wars since WEG.

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

But what would starbuck be? Metaphysical questions abound.

Original Battlestar Galactica? He's a Human Ace of course. New Battlestar? She's an uber-advanced an Droid Ace. She just doesn't know it yet until she runs into her twin Guri.

not to get too spoilerrific, but is she even a droid? she just disappears into thin air.

So it is acceptable for this one force power to be denied to a dark side character simply because it's written differently?

Put another way, why can't a dark side character fueling the power only with the light side heal? What is our justification besides dark can't heal (which is very questionable in the first place)

To me it's because they've fully lost themselves to the darkness, they can no longer find it within themselves to selflessly heal. They have to draw the life force from someone else to do it, because they no longer have the inner tranquility necessary to be able to heal by themselves. That's just how I see it.

Not that this is necessarily anything about it, but I'm not a fan of some of the eu mary sue "grey jedi" that run around mixing the dark side and the light. The light side is good. The dark side is evil. That is made endlessly clear.

How does that reconcile with being able to heal using dark side results on the die? Are we assuming that the characters morality determines their dark leanings and not the actual result on the die?

Because it's completely different for someone who isn't a dark sider to tap into the dark side to give their regular powers a little boost when they need it then for someone who has fully embraced the dark side. (30- Morality)

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

That's fine. I'm not at all concerned about "your Star Wars." That's for you to worry about. I'm concerned about canon.

I prefer my "magic" in my D&D and fantasy Warhammer games.

In Star Wars, it's only the Force for me, even if you call it by several different names. Some cultures can still call it "magick" in Star Wars, but it's still that midichlorian-surrounds-all-life stuff. There isn't some other second or third mystical power at work in my Star Wars. I'm going with that was the intention from the get go and sticking with it. If you start straying into stuff like real fantasy world style magic being added to the Star Wars universe (in addition to the Force) you are making your setting into something other then Star Wars in my opinion. To me that's only one step from the Battlestar Galactica arriving above Coruscant having discovered the Lost Colony. Sure it might be fun, but it's something other then Star Wars at that point.

But what would starbuck be? Metaphysical questions abound.

Original Battlestar Galactica? He's a Human Ace of course. New Battlestar? She's an uber-advanced an Droid Ace. She just doesn't know it yet until she runs into her twin Guri.

not to get too spoilerrific, but is she even a droid? she just disappears into thin air.

Well, it depends on your personal interpretation since it was left so ambiquous. And, if you noticed, my interpretation was tongue-in-cheek. Just like my labeling of Coruscant as the "Lost Colony" of BSG. Spoiler alert - that wasn't correct either.

how do you know?

Maybe there's a raptor buried some where in the undercity.

Because it's completely different for someone who isn't a dark sider to tap into the dark side to give their regular powers a little boost when they need it then for someone who has fully embraced the dark side. (30- Morality)

I suppose I don't see that distinction. when using dark side pips, you are tapping into the darkside.

Once fallen, that becomes your default mode, but you still ahve the capacity to access the light side. I don't fully agree that you have a whole piece of the force denied to you, especially if you have the power xps invested.

But I suppose at this point it's beating a dead horse. I think that the power would be better balanced using my suggestion, preventing some of the massive healing and damage I've seen. but the rAW does present a strong limiting factor to the grey jedi (a sort of terminal moment if you wil). I can safely say that one of my players embraced the death side of the force.

Because it's completely different for someone who isn't a dark sider to tap into the dark side to give their regular powers a little boost when they need it then for someone who has fully embraced the dark side. (30- Morality)

I suppose I don't see that distinction. when using dark side pips, you are tapping into the darkside.

Once fallen, that becomes your default mode, but you still ahve the capacity to access the light side. I don't fully agree that you have a whole piece of the force denied to you, especially if you have the power xps invested.

But I suppose at this point it's beating a dead horse. I think that the power would be better balanced using my suggestion, preventing some of the massive healing and damage I've seen. but the rAW does present a strong limiting factor to the grey jedi (a sort of terminal moment if you wil). I can safely say that one of my players embraced the death side of the force.

As long as your player doesn't embrace the 'mary sue' side of the Force, everything will probably be okay.

not to get too spoilerrific, but is she even a droid? she just disappears into thin air.

* Whom is the real hero of the movies.

After watching some of the clone wars cartoons, I realized one of the best examples of "healing" that the darkside accomplishes: Darth Maul. Now I am not saying that Darth Maul surviving obi-wan's final strike is an example of the heal power exactly, but based on Obi-wan's strike and the Placement of Maul's cybernetic legs in the clone wars series, it is obvious that Maul should have been dead. Not simply losing a leg or two, but dead.

Now I understand that the Heal power in general is not what keeps Maul alive after being diced in half (or vader alive on Mustafar for that matter), but clearly the darkside has a method of preserving life in an unnatrual way. Which from a game perspective can be something like heal.

This is the best reason i can think not to restrict the heal power to non-dark side only characters. Resrtict dark siders to only healing them selves, or restrict the heal power to only functioning from lightside pips (so dark side characters must struggle to use it), or even both. But the dark side has the capacity to sustain life in unnatural ways, and not simply by transfering life essence from one target to another, but in a sort of zombified/undead way. Which could easily be the heal power being applied to a dark side character by themselves to prevent death from arriving.

Feel free to disagree. this isn't solid and irrifutable evidence. but if we compare the examples of the dark side sustaining "life" to examples of the light side sustaining life, I think more examples of the dark side can be found.

Well, they added Healing to oneself in the Update, so it's possible it'll get changed to Light points and Dark Points respectively.

As for Maul, he may have just been a badass and survived his life threatening wounds. Also don;t forget Healing Trance and Healing Trance (Imporved) exist and could also explain his survival.

Force powers or not... it's really hard to survive without a lower intestine. I mean, the diarrhea man. Dear... GOD!

It was his "Against All Odds" talent keeping him alive as he kept feeding it Dark Side points every "session." :-P

In all our discussion I forgot one of the best EU examples of a kind of healing... Darth Sion from the KOTOR II game. Again, another non-canon reference, but talk about someone that just didn't care about taking a wound. And it was the dark side that sustained him.

Not that that is evidence one way or another, but I just can't believe I forgot about him.

Ehh... I don't know if I'd really consider what Darth Sion did to be healing. He didn't really heal his body so much as just stopped it from being destroyed completely.

but in game terms, what does that mean?

Understand, I'm not disagreeing with you conceptually, but in game terms he's keeping himself functional despite taking many wounds and critical injuries. certainly his "character would have hard headed, durable, and lots of wounds, but he is also recovering from being stricken down, functioning past the point of death.

In anycase, I had forgotten about him.

In game terms he's a Nemesis-level NPC with a character-specific ability that only he has.

Perhaps it is something along the lines of "Deathless Dark Side Rage." This character can use the "Against All Odds" talent without any session limitation.

Or it's simply fluff and he can't be defeated through suffering wounds until/unless another particular story condition is met.