Could you please direct me to where it is canon that the Nightsisters don't use the force?

They call it magick is my interpretation. And it's their point of view.

If Mother Talzin says it is 'magick' and not the force is because she thinks it, not a confirmed objective fact.

But if there is another source, please point me in the right direction?

Could you please direct me to where it is canon that the Nightsisters don't use the force?

They call it magick is my interpretation. And it's their point of view.

If Mother Talzin says it is 'magick' and not the force is because she thinks it, not a confirmed objective fact.

But if there is another source, please point me in the right direction?

Canon is the Star Wars films and the Clone Wars series. In the CW series Mother Talzin explains that she does not use the force, it's magick. It also looks nothing like the any force powers we've ever seen.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/mother-talzin

"strange magicks of the Nightsisters"

Nightsister use a HIGHLY ritualized form of the force, supplementing their mastery of the force with ritualistic focuses that they hav called "magick" to intimidate and mystify their peers on Dathomir.

And Cade brings ... azlyn?... back to life in the legacy comics, after she is dead, and she hates him for it. she ends up being horibly scarred and trapped in a cybernetic aparatus like a certain dark lord we know.

unnatural doesn't mean evil. For instance, unleash in the book is unnatural because it breaks the laws of thermo dynamics. Note only the truly cruel use (the mastery upgrade of force lightning) is the one that truly must draw on the darkside.

IMO, denying dark side characters access to heal doesn't match the lore of the SW universe on a larger scale, and also doesn't contribute to the game. it railroads a character. where as changing heal/harm to light/dark side pips only makes both a more specific choice. a light side character can't just harm some one, but must draw on the dark side to do it.

I'm only discussing from a canon perspective here, not old legends books and comics.

from a canon perspective, the nighsisters don't exist.

And the book of the Sith (2014) has many interesting notes from the nighsisters about their use of the force, and how mystifying it as magick gives them an edge over the "uninitiated,"

And the Legacy comics aren't old. they are actually very recent.

If you want to restrict yourself to canon, there is no healing. point blank. so that is a somewhat fruitless basis for this discussion.

from a canon perspective, the nighsisters don't exist.

And the book of the Sith (2014) has many interesting notes from the nighsisters about their use of the force, and how mystifying it as magick gives them an edge over the "uninitiated,"

And the Legacy comics aren't old. they are actually very recent.

If you want to restrict yourself to canon, there is no healing. point blank. so that is a somewhat fruitless basis for this discussion.

Yes, the Nightsisters do exist in canon. See my link above. Canon is the films and the Clone Wars series. It contains Nightsisters.

I wasn't emplying the Legacy comics were ancient, I was saying they're out of date with current canonical continuity.

I believe Obi-wan was using heal in ANH because of what it looks like he does and what it says in the script. So no, there isn't "no healing. point blank."

Could you please direct me to where it is canon that the Nightsisters don't use the force?

They call it magick is my interpretation. And it's their point of view.

If Mother Talzin says it is 'magick' and not the force is because she thinks it, not a confirmed objective fact.

But if there is another source, please point me in the right direction?

Canon is the Star Wars films and the Clone Wars series. In the CW series Mother Talzin explains that she does not use the force, it's magick. It also looks nothing like the any force powers we've ever seen.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/mother-talzin

"strange magicks of the Nightsisters"

Yes exactly, that's her view of it. Until someone else, like a Jedi master or Sith lord states that it is not the Force, it is most likely just a point of view.

Could you please direct me to where it is canon that the Nightsisters don't use the force?

They call it magick is my interpretation. And it's their point of view.

If Mother Talzin says it is 'magick' and not the force is because she thinks it, not a confirmed objective fact.

But if there is another source, please point me in the right direction?

Canon is the Star Wars films and the Clone Wars series. In the CW series Mother Talzin explains that she does not use the force, it's magick. It also looks nothing like the any force powers we've ever seen.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/mother-talzin

"strange magicks of the Nightsisters"

Yes exactly, that's her view of it. Until someone else, like a Jedi master or Sith lord states that it is not the Force, it is most likely just a point of view.

On the site it reads from a narrator point of view and calls it "strange magicks of the Nightsisters". We've really no reason to think otherwise.

It's totally up to you what you personally believe though.

You could also take a bigger-picture view and say that there are some strange magical forces in the Galaxy which can be harnessed in various ways.

The Force might be one aspect of those forces, whereas the Nightsisters' magicks might be a different aspect.

Demigonis: I understand your POV, but for as long as the nightsisters have existed, in all the sources, canon or not, they have referred to their particular use of the force as magick. there are several reasons for it, as I have described above. It mystifies it, culturing sense of fear about the powers. It's ritualized, utilizing a prescriptive method of instruction (as opposed to the jedi's relatively descriptive and individual method). If we look at this through the lens of canon then we need to review all the scripts for the clone wars cartoons to see what the production notes, stage directions and etc. say about their supernatural effects. Since I don't have access to that, or the time to devote, I think it's more fruitful to view their powers through the lens of the force, not only for this discussion, but also for consistency of the universe.

As to obi-wan's use of healing in ANH, the script and the visuals don't specifically state healing, they state that luke comes around. The script could just as easily have been referring to smelling salts. Even in the clone wars cartoons (the newer CG ones of course) that I can remember, no one ever heals with the force. Healing is a concept that has grown from the EU and from video games, at least as anything other than helping someone regain consciousness. so again, for a fruitful discussion, I think incorporating the concepts from the larger EU is better suited for discussion of this power, as that is where the origin of this power really comes from.

For all we know, Obi-wan may have just been assisting Luke in a hard headed check.

I'm fine with including some amount of EU. But for me personally I stray away from including EU stuff that directly conflicts with canon. I know that in all the old books/etc the Nightsisters and "witches of dathomir" were known as "force witches" and a lot of people are used to that and like that. But now, Nightsisters are actual canon and it's explained that they don't use the force. If you want to assume that they actually do use the force and it's just some ruse to seem special or mysterious like it was in the legends books/etc, that's fine. If you like the old stories from the books/etc, that's fine. But I think, technically, in canon right now the Nightsisters do not use the force, they use magick. (Until it is explained otherwise in a canon source that it's actually the force.) Again, in your game, do this however you want, Star Wars is interpreted a little different by everybody and it's all fine and good.

I think in ANH it's implied that Obi-wan at least helped Luke regain consciousness and maybe helped him avoid a concussion. I will agree that a lot of the 'stronger' more physically literal instances of healing have been brought on by EU and video games and such. Although now that I think of it, I think I recall an episode or two of the Clone Wars that included some force healing, but I could be wrong. I'll investigate that. (and I'm not referring to talzin 'healing' maul or opress)

I think regardless of how Mother Talzin is presented, she uses a discipline that is neither Sith Magic nor Jedi trained force use. However, given how she interacts and effectively creates Savage Oppress, "heals" Darth Maul, and mentors Asajj Ventress, it is clear that what she does interacts with the force, and by simplification, is an extension of it. I also don't think it practical to introduce an additional "magic" mechanic to the game when it can be easily described with the force rules.

I think Talzin's approach is she wants to distinguish herself and the Nightsisters from either Sith or Jedi. The underlying energy field she manipulates and interacts with is an aspect of the Force, with some pretty heavy dark side leanings.

As I've said earlier, I've not had a chance to read the rules as written in terms of heal/harm. If it indeed indicates that dark side users can't heal, then I would provide feedback disagreeing with that because of some canonical (films/TV) references where dark side users appear to make use of healing when it suits their purpose. Healing someone does not necessarily mean it is done altruistically. Plus healing doesn't need to be accompanied by some glowy effect (Obi-Wan/Palpatine).

Demigonis: Can you cite your source where it's said that Talzim does not use the force? If you can point me to the episode, It gives me a good reason to watch it on Netflix tonight.

Demigonis: Can you cite your source where it's said that Talzim does not use the force? If you can point me to the episode, It gives me a good reason to watch it on Netflix tonight.

I do not remember off the top of my head the episode, but I can try to look it up and I'll get back to you.

Edit: This isn't at all the source I was looking for, but I ran across it so I thought I'd put it here while I look for the other. Okay, in the Clone Wars episode "Massacre", Season 4 Episode 19, Count Dooku tells Grievous to "follow the witch's magick, it appears as a green mist. Follow it to its source; eliminate Talzin." Again, not the reference I'm looking for, but Dooku refers to it as Magick as well.

Edit 2: Found it, "The Disappeared (Part 2)" Season 6 Episode 9. Mother Talzin explains:

Mother Talzin: "... I am not a natural force wielder like the Jedi or Sith, I use Dark Magick to achieve power."

I don't want to be too outright spoiler-y right here about the plot of the episode because it only came out earlier this year and some may not have seen it. Does this forum support spoiler tags/etc? I don't see the option.

I didn't even know this until today, but supposedly Dave Filoni (the director of the Clone Wars) was quoted as saying she doesn't use the force in an interview or podcast. I'm trying to find the exact source for that.

That does seem more necromantic then a description of healing, but in game terms what might be the difference? I suppose you could say the Sith couldn't heal Wounds like the Jedi, but could actually bring people back from actual death. This wouldn't be healing of the living, but raising of the dead so-to-speak. This could be an interesting lost art of the Sith to reveal. A secret discovery of the Jedi was the ghost form after death. A secret power of the Sith could be a twisted version where a person could be ressurected into some sort of ichy "undead" Sith liche. After a quick googling it looks like the EU has beat me to it with the "Korriban Zombie" and "Sith Undead".

Not sure if you caught it, but check out the Mastery upgrade for Heal/Harm. The Harm version is basically necromancy, killing someone to bring back a character who previously died in the encounter. 10 Conflict for both the Force User and the Healed person plus whatever other conflict you gain from killing others. Narratively there's a lot one could do with that...

That does seem more necromantic then a description of healing, but in game terms what might be the difference? I suppose you could say the Sith couldn't heal Wounds like the Jedi, but could actually bring people back from actual death. This wouldn't be healing of the living, but raising of the dead so-to-speak. This could be an interesting lost art of the Sith to reveal. A secret discovery of the Jedi was the ghost form after death. A secret power of the Sith could be a twisted version where a person could be ressurected into some sort of ichy "undead" Sith liche. After a quick googling it looks like the EU has beat me to it with the "Korriban Zombie" and "Sith Undead".

Not sure if you caught it, but check out the Mastery upgrade for Heal/Harm. The Harm version is basically necromancy, killing someone to bring back a character who previously died in the encounter. 10 Conflict for both the Force User and the Healed person plus whatever other conflict you gain from killing others. Narratively there's a lot one could do with that...

I did catch that, Harm however limits them to resurrecting something that has died very recently and they must take life force from a living subject to do it. The powers the Nightsisters wielded (in the Clone Wars episode "Massacre", Season 4 Episode 19) were distinctly different, resurrecting people long dead, with no life force required from a subject, and ressing them as controlled animated corpse zombies, not as the individuals they once were.

So I got a chance to watch those, and I see where the confusion/differentiation we've spoken around is coming from.

Which means we're at an impass. I have been a big fan of the Night sisters for a long time. They were founded by a jedi that was exiled from the order and stranded on Dathomir. They began to ritualize their force use, and the night sisters of course turned to the darkside. their ritualization meant that to learn the force required their instruction. They even refered to it as magick, but that was a lie that they told to prevent understanding. The book of the Sith confirms this, written from the POV of Talzim herself.

That of course, is hard to explain from a strictly canonical view, which, does not repute the above sources, but does not support them either.

So we are at an impass.

That being said, I still feel that the power is both more balanced and less rail road-ish if the healing aspect could only be fueld by lightside points, and the harming effect could only be fueled by darkside poitns. It tones down the power's balance on both sides (making healing less powerful, and harm less powerful, bringing it more inline with bind and unleash).

Thanks for reminding me of those episodes. I'd seen them, but given the context of when talzim said that line in s6e9, I assumed she was trying to intimidate the target of that comment, and less that it was the "truth."

But truth in star wars, well, lets ask old obi-wan about that.

"from a certain point of view..."

It's an interesting situation. To me it seems like her magick is so much different from the Force we know. The Force is never (nearly if not always) physically represented, it is always an 'invisible' force that is never shown. Everything having to do with Talzin's magick is surrounded by bright neon green mist and light. She conjures physical objects out of nothing. She can teleport. She can turn into a mist form. She can possess someone's body. (apparently that happens in the comics that continue the part of the Clone Wars that got cut when they turned Season 6 into a half season to start making Star Wars Rebels to synergize better with the new film trilogy coming out) She creates what is essentially a voodoo doll of Count Dooku. She causes herself to appear to him from another planet. She has her Nightsister elder animate the dead into undead zombies. She brews neon green potions to turn Ventress into the Predator. She utilizes the "water of life", a bright green bubbling liquid to do stuff to Opress. The witch analogy is pretty literal, she's almost not even missing a cauldron. Trying to remember if there's anything I'm forgetting...

And no problemo about reminding you about those episodes. It's clear we're all passionate fans of Star Wars that want this game to be really good.

Those are all examples of what sith alchemy is capable of in the broader EU. For better or worse. exar Kun expiraments on and mutates a massassai to be ferocious and intelligent. Can't remember his name, but that guy also survived like 4000 years in suspended animation.

Yep. I HIGHLY recommend the Book of the Sith, as in it Talzim talks about how ritualizing the force allows the mastery of feats not possible through the "SIth" methods. In the older d20 editions Dathomiri magicks were represented with force powers taking longer to activate, but with a decreased cost, making them more repeatable over time.

Even the jedi's use of the force was refered to as magic by a number of primitive cultures (Ewoks anyone) and both the Jedi and Sith would adopt this image from time to time as it served them.

I think the main reason these magicks seem like something else is that the Jedi, believing in knowledge above all, treated the force as something classifiable and not mysterious. At least not in the incomprehensible way. The actively promoted the idea that understanding the force was an attainable goal with discipline and dedication. This made them inclusive. The nightsisters are not inclusive. Neither are the rule of 2 sith. They guard their knowledge and actively interphere to prevent others from acheiving their same level of greatness. So for Talzim, it's simple theatrics blended with the force that allows her to accomplish these mystic feats. Not that manifestign a force weapon isn't impressive. But it's more likely a trick, of her drawing a concealed weapon and imbuing it with the force at the same time. But that wouldn't be half as impressive as creating a weapon from the force.

It's all about lies, misdirection, and the unnatural. yeah, I've enjoyed the Witchs of dathomir since they were first written about.

I do understand where you're coming from. I think a lot of that stuff is pretty cool. Much of it just isn't confirmed canon. Which matters to some more than others. I try to stick to stuff that at very least doesn't contradict canon. I'm not sure if sith alchemy is mentioned anywhere in the Clone Wars. I almost feel like it might have been, maybe not in those words, even if it was a small off-handed comment somewhere. I'd be curious to see...

Yes! there was that creature at the end of season 3... that was IIRC a creation of sith alchemy from many centuries back.

Let me see if I can find that episode.

Edit: it's s2e18-19. the zillo beast. I'm going to watch those now, but I'm fairly sure that they mention it was a creature of the darkside/sith alchemy

Also, I forgot about this, but remember the Mortis arc near the end of season 4. Those are force using creatures and they possess asoka, change their physical structure to morph into other shapes... lots of strange things the force can do.

Further Edit: Sadly I was wrong. It's been years since I had watched the episode, and it's just a "natural" predator. Le sigh.

If it's any matter, the wookiepedia has this to say about nightsisters:

" The Nightsisters was both a clan and an order ^[1] of Force -wielding females who lived on Dathomir , a planet bathed in dark energies . ^[2] By tapping into the magical ichor of that flowed from Dathomir's depths, they could use their arcane magicks. ^{[3] "}

^and

^" Religion and philosophy

By tapping into the magical ichor of that flowed from Dathomir's depths, the witches could harness a power ^[3] they referred to as "magicks." ^[2] The most powerful of them could use that ichor to summon objects out of the thin air ^[8] , transform people into ghostly versions of their true forms ^[4] , or even reanimate the dead . ^{[5] "}

^{So in a way, we're both right. Apparently the planet is now magical, and the nightsisters are force sensitive.}

In the lost episodes, Palps and Dooku used what looked a hell of a lot like "Sith Alchemy" or "Magicks" to scry on Yoda and interfere with his spirit quest.

" The Nightsisters was both a clan and an order ^[1] of Force -wielding females who lived on Dathomir , a planet bathed in dark energies . ^[2

The source that wookieepedia gives for this line is this page from the Star Wars official site: http://www.starwars.com/databank/nightsisters

The official source does not mention the Force even once. Only "The sisters ruled unchallenged, gifted with the power to wield dark magicks ."

I guess the question is "do you think there is a magick separate from the force?"

I don't (I think that's obvious) as that is inconsistent, and bad writing. but with lucas gone now, I suppose all bets are off.

I guess the question is "do you think there is a magick separate from the force?"

I don't (I think that's obvious) as that is inconsistent, and bad writing. but with lucas gone now, I suppose all bets are off.

Inconsistent with what? Only with non-canon material to my knowledge.

It's non-canon material that you like (and there's nothing wrong with that), so I understand... but still, non-canon.

I don't think the existence of any 'supernatural' power outside of the Force is bad writing at all, I think that's super dismissive. And Lucas was heavily involved in every storyline in the Clone Wars.