I'm not selling my 40k stuff ( Marines and Orks) as I can't bear to after the time I spent painting them. However I've sold off all my spare untainted bits and bobs. Not played for over 2 years and only have 4 th edition book. Hopefully something may come out of GW in the future and I will resurrect the armies.

LotR did well while the movies were out but that bubble burst after the return of the king came out.

It was 2004 when they abandoned specialist games and started to ignore vets in favour of kids it all started to go wrong, because as any burk knows kids don't have money their parents do and trying to convince mommy you need a £50 tank is a very hard sell.

of late its gotten worse as each new release is more expensive than the last like 3 terminator sized meganobz for the same price as 5 terminators.

Epic 40k remains ( IMO ) the best wargame I have ever played. If you wanted a game were marines actually played like the hyper tough mobile super killers they are supposed to be , where Orks were an immense green tide supported by lunatic inventions...and every single decision you made was genuinely important...that game was perfect.

But I suspect it was perhaps to subtle for the marine loving masses and was dropped. I am still gutted.

I can still remember some of the most awesome cinematic and true to the fluff moments I have ever seen in a game and I havnt played a game in nearly 10 years.

For me I like x wing so much because I see in it a sort of spiritual successor to epic40k. Obviously the rules are 99% dissimilar, but something about the way every thing you do counts which feeds into both tension and cinematic moments.

Nothing beats the feeling when a well piloted Fell(for one random example) flys up behind an X wing, barrel rolls behind them and blows them away.

Warmachine/Hordes was less than half the cost to field a force at that time, and it turned out even that was more than I wanted to invest in a minis game. And then it turned out X-wing was less expensive still, and--unlike 40k or Warmahordes--had list-building as a solid an interesting component of the game. Haven't really looked back.

Well, this thread is OT anyway... I agree about the price, but I'm surprised that you didn't find Warmahordes list building interesting. Why is that? What faction(s) and point totals were you looking at?

...

I got into x-wing after a year long hiatus when 6th came out. It's a better game overall.

I want FFG to bring back Battlefleet Gothic. I know they have Armada, but 40k space combat is way cooler than Star Wars.

I actually got BFG stuff before I got Warhammer 40,000 stuff. There is few space military science fiction that does both planetside and space battles. Warhammer 40,000 and Star Wars are 2 of those.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Chairmans-Preamble-2014.pdf

Read it by yourself. It's almost comical.

I find it hard to believe that this memo is not a parody.

But just in case it isn't, and we compare the GW numbers to the FFG numbers we saw (in a distant fuzzy graph in a presentation) at GenCon, then I think the phrase is:

"I'm gonna eat your lunch!"

@Mikael

It isn't a parody.

I know a lot of people who have invested fairly heavily in GW stuff. Lots of money, time, energy... I've never actually seen or heard about any of them playing.

Ever.

I've always liked the idea of 40K. Seems like an amazing idea of a game. The idea of spending all that time painting painting, building, fixing building/painting mistakes, etc... all that needs to be done before I can even start playing. So no. Not worth it to me.

I can't blame Games Workshop too much for doing new editions. And the fact that your current models will still be usable is a good thing. But it sounds like their new editions aren't really ground-up redesigns to make the rules work better and smooth out the player experience. If they're not doing that, then I don't see the point.

Overall, I'm very happy to have gotten into X-Wing. It sounds like too many other companies are doing too much BS.

Just to clarify the hobby of table top miniatures is more than just playing a game. In the "good old days" when they had their games day convention and golden demon conventions sure there were tournaments but the main competition was in the painting of the models and dioramas. Back then Big GW said they were focused on the hobby not the game and that was the right focus. Building your own miniatures and then painting them and give them their own character was the core of the hobby. I knew there were allot of power builders who rule lawyered everything and look only for winning builds and their armies looked like the worst. Half of the models were not even painted (I knew an Ork player who refused to paint his models). That is NOT the hobby. Now both the good and bad news is with more pre-painted miniature games those people will move to other games which will be better for Warhammer 40,000. Unfortunately we might end up seeing those players here in X-wing. Now I can understand if you are not into painting. That's okay I'm not a good painter and I got allot of unpainted models (and unopened boxes). However to be honest I don't like fielding a model without at least some basic paint job that make it look somewhat finished (4 colors at minimum).

Now when GW returns to their roots and realize it is not about the game but about the creativity and character of their models then that is when you can see things turn around. Now it is in recession, and it is a needed recession you will see it back to more of the hobby where people build not to get the winning army but to make something that looks awesome. Where presentation is more important than merely winning. That is the true hobby behind miniatures. So here is a Diorama that won the slayer sword from one of the golden demon conventions just to show you it is not just about the game.

@Mikael

It isn't a parody.

I'll take your word for it. It's just... that a message like that would not have the words 'I resign' in it somewhere.

It's just been such a long time that I've paid any attention to GW that I'm nonplussed by how bad they've let it get, if what you're all saying is an accurate representation of it. Okay nonplussed with a certain amount of schadenfreude, but nonplussed regardless.

Games Workshop eh?

In an era of wooden ships and iron men I fell in love with their books (fluff/background).

"Lost and the Damned" and "Slaves to Darkness" still are worth every cent I spent from my meagre cash back then.

Note that I even *worked* for Games Workshop. At their headoffice in Eastwood. (yeah; that long ago)

Anyhow; as a gamer first and foremost I love a balanced ruleset.

And frankly I have given up my hope they ever will even *try* to *aim* for balance.

But I still own their models. I refuse to sell that many hours I wasted on them.

And it still can be fun with friends. Just not tournaments.

no post like this is worth it without pictures so:

I know a lot of people who have invested fairly heavily in GW stuff. Lots of money, time, energy... I've never actually seen or heard about any of them playing.

Ever.

I've always liked the idea of 40K. Seems like an amazing idea of a game. The idea of spending all that time painting painting, building, fixing building/painting mistakes, etc... all that needs to be done before I can even start playing. So no. Not worth it to me.

I can't blame Games Workshop too much for doing new editions. And the fact that your current models will still be usable is a good thing. But it sounds like their new editions aren't really ground-up redesigns to make the rules work better and smooth out the player experience. If they're not doing that, then I don't see the point.

Overall, I'm very happy to have gotten into X-Wing. It sounds like too many other companies are doing too much BS.

Just to clarify the hobby of table top miniatures is more than just playing a game. In the "good old days" when they had their games day convention and golden demon conventions sure there were tournaments but the main competition was in the painting of the models and dioramas. Back then Big GW said they were focused on the hobby not the game and that was the right focus. Building your own miniatures and then painting them and give them their own character was the core of the hobby. I knew there were allot of power builders who rule lawyered everything and look only for winning builds and their armies looked like the worst. Half of the models were not even painted (I knew an Ork player who refused to paint his models). That is NOT the hobby. Now both the good and bad news is with more pre-painted miniature games those people will move to other games which will be better for Warhammer 40,000. Unfortunately we might end up seeing those players here in X-wing. Now I can understand if you are not into painting. That's okay I'm not a good painter and I got allot of unpainted models (and unopened boxes). However to be honest I don't like fielding a model without at least some basic paint job that make it look somewhat finished (4 colors at minimum).

Now when GW returns to their roots and realize it is not about the game but about the creativity and character of their models then that is when you can see things turn around. Now it is in recession, and it is a needed recession you will see it back to more of the hobby where people build not to get the winning army but to make something that looks awesome. Where presentation is more important than merely winning. That is the true hobby behind miniatures. So here is a Diorama that won the slayer sword from one of the golden demon conventions just to show you it is not just about the game.

Why exactly can't you have both ? By the way, the hobby is what you make it out to be, not what somebody elses tells you it is. And the "hobby" is right now aimed at collectionists anyways.

I used to work for Games Workshop, and I'll tell you in one sentence why their seemingly insane price hikes keep happening:

"Games Workshop consider themselves a luxury niche product provider people desperately want."

Not a games company, not a toy company. I sat through an hour long training session where a member of the design team made this crystal clear. They feel that the amount of effort they put in to a product determines the value, not Supply and Demand. It was the most unbelievable hubris I had ever heard, and the guy was dead serious.

The massive prices are because GW is a massive operation with massive costs. They have full-time employees who do nothing but paint models to professional quality for glossy photo shoots. They have a bloated middle-management. They have shareholders. They need to be making millions just to sustain this.

They honestly believe that their Nagash mini and book are worth the asking price because of the effort they took to produce. They honestly believe they don't need to prioritize balance in their games, in the same way that Ferrari doesn't prioritize fuel economy or luggage space.

The problem is, Miniatures =/= status symbols in our culture, and have zero practical utility (unlike a Ferrari). Also, Ferrari DO deliever what they promise, i.e. a very fast, stylized mode of transport. GW doesn't. Their models aren't head and shoulders above their competitors in terms of quality, and their game isn't head and shoulders above in terms of fun.

Basically, GW offers nothing you can't get cheaper elsewhere, except a brand. And I'd argue that unlike sports car consumers or fashion consumers, hobbyists are far more concerned with affordability and fun gameplay than brand.

/rant

@Mikael

It isn't a parody.

I'll take your word for it. It's just... that a message like that would not have the words 'I resign' in it somewhere.

It's just been such a long time that I've paid any attention to GW that I'm nonplussed by how bad they've let it get, if what you're all saying is an accurate representation of it. Okay nonplussed with a certain amount of schadenfreude, but nonplussed regardless.

Kirby is stepping down as ceo in January I think they are looking for a new one, but and I kid you not they don't want cvs they just want a letter detailing why you'd be suitable, they don't care about experience just your attitude.

Basically people think they are looking for a scape goat to blame the collapse on, these guys are clueless and still living in the 90s.

They've slashed shop staff cut middle management to the bone and it's not working, next year they have no more cuts to make and things will look even worse, gw has a lousy rep in the gaming community now and they are doing nothing but reinforcing that rep.

When you have to drop $150 just for the rules to play a game, there is a problem.

...to play a game which is not, according to GW, even why people buy the models. The gaming aspect is a coincidence and not to be taken seriously and the main thing are the models.

When you have to drop $150 just for the rules to play a game, there is a problem.

...to play a game which is not, according to GW, even why people buy the models. The gaming aspect is a coincidence and not to be taken seriously and the main thing are the models.

Other systems give their rules away, or package them with a cheap starter set.

Not gw £70 for a mini rule book and two forces you can't even use as a starter army.

But try telling that to fanboys all you'll get is the stupid "it's a model company" line, the clues in the name games workshop.

You can't blame the older design team for bailing and starting with new companies they saw the rot set in before we did.

It's like attack wing really good at the start but fast getting ruined by the greed of wizkidz.

I still play Games Workshop games, and I'm sure I will in the future as well, but my spending on said games has decreased significantly. The big issue for me is balance. Sure, I'm mostly a casual gamer, but I still feel bad fielding units that are flat out worse than others. There are too many overpowered units (Riptide), obligatory upgrades (Mindshackle Scarabs), cool but completely useless units (Kommandos), and it's too easy to mix Codices to create some truly awful unfluffy combos. I recently faced a player who used Grey Knight Rhinos, protected by two Imperial Knights, to generate dice for his untouchable jetbiking Eldar Farseer, who sped back and forth summoning Daemons. This was a battleforged list, mind you, so said daemons also had objective secured.

GW rules have been looking for a long time like they have been written by the marketing department. Write in some cool extras for the new minis we push into the market right now. But people play tournaments with that...

Unbound was when I decided to quite, just take whatever you want and sod balance.

Allies was bad unbound is just stupid games design, oh and all those random charts now...

Warmachine/Hordes was less than half the cost to field a force at that time, and it turned out even that was more than I wanted to invest in a minis game. And then it turned out X-wing was less expensive still, and--unlike 40k or Warmahordes--had list-building as a solid an interesting component of the game. Haven't really looked back.

Well, this thread is OT anyway... I agree about the price, but I'm surprised that you didn't find Warmahordes list building interesting. Why is that? What faction(s) and point totals were you looking at?

Yeah, that's a little surprising. Considering unit synergy and caster interaction is supremely important in Warmachine, as far as I can remember.

I've played GW games since the early 80's. I left their core games in 40K3. Their specialist games have always been their best products.

I will admit to being not a "great fan" of GW since they took over the local games store (30+ years ago) and cut off the local supply of Avalon Hill and SPI games (the youngsters among you can go Google)

I also had a traumatic experience when a guy I went to school with who worked in the shop at the time bent my ear about his squint army...I still have nightmares! My third experience with them was about 5 years ago, getting back into wargaming i drifted into the shop to pick up some bits and pieces to paint while I waited for some micro armour to turn up and got a very sarcastic comment from the guy behind the counter when I picked up one pack of high elves.

Fast forward to thurs last week 21/08. I'm in Travelling man, Newcastle picking up my first starter set of X wing. 4 young lads are wandering the shop discussing what their next "thing" will be. Bit of scene setting, Travelling Man is 5 shops or so down from Forbidden Planet. Both of which have "reasonable" stocks of various games. Fast forward to the end of the conversation the 4 lads end up heading for GW.

I doubt the guys have a great deal of disposable income, but they still ended up heading round the corner to GW.

I don't know how many of you are into other figure wargames, but go look at the prices for a metal or resin 28mm +size figure from other manufacturers and the price differential is not so great anymore. I even know of one group who will sell you 20 figures for £80 compared to GW's 21 figures for £70. (based on a blood angels pack) without going into too much detail, the figures are pretty comparable.

In all that 35 years or so since they took the local shop over, the demise of GW has been a constant refrain in the hobby. Whenever two gamers gather, their name will be taken in vain. It's in our DNA :-) They are still here.

Here's another trend for you. At the Other Partizan in Newark last year, I had the same discussion with one of the "smaller" traders but it had grown, it wasn't just about the evil empire anymore.

Not sure why the 4 lads made the decision they did, if I did I'd probably be on the way to being the next boss of GW.

I sold up all of my GW stuff when i left around 2005/6.

I'd spent *years* in the UK studio marketing and events dept trying to get them to do focus groups and the like... the argument i always got back from people like Alan Merrit was 'we dont need to ask our customers what they think, because we *are* our customers...'

You can see the logic but it clearly didnt work. I used to hold informal feedback sessions after events i ran to try and improve future one... that worked

The LOTR thing was a good move at the time but i think it was milked too heavily waiting for 'the hobbit'.

When it came out not many people at Lenton were that behind it as a game but it was a good 'career move' to look like you were and for some people it quickly swung them up the ladder. On the other hand slagging off a game written by Rick Preistly who was a senior member of 'group' wasnt going to do you any favours.

I wish it was popular though. I got about £50 for my easterling force on ebay the other day and its pretty well painted. About 25 models, bolt thrower and a mounted ring wraith...

Simply couldnt sell the rules or my painted fellowship, no one wanted em.

I was always amazed GW never went for the 'game of thrones' licence as it has a lot more 'life/longevity' in it that LOTR and i think given you've got five or six houses (with different looks), an undead element, a barbarian element, nights watch etc ... well you'd have plenty of factions to make armies for.

At the same time i left a good mate was pretty much constructively dismissed and both of us were pretty bitter about GW but still liked the 40k we played as kids.

So these days we only play 'old school' GW, mainly 3rd edition warhammer with loads of lead models (dont like plastic warhammer figures tbh, never have), old rogue trader 40k with a GM and more 'rpg' aspects. The odd game of 90s stuff like BFG, Necromunda and we also play the old board games like 'dungeon quest', 'curse of the mummys tomb' etc and run a 1st edition WHFRP campaign.

The old stuff was just so much richer, more more well written and if you play an old version with mates you just dont have to keep buying new stuff all the time.

Unless you want something old or rare you can get most Rogue Trader era models for between £2 and £5... that's actually cheaper than buying the new plastic ones!

Here...have a look at us having loads of fun with not a new mini in sight!

Vague star wars link in that all my home made scenery in the second battle report uses aurebesh!

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/zoats-vs-imperial-army-deathworld.html

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/battle-of-dogtown-roguemunda-battle.html

@Gadge

Well, longevity is not what comes to mind considering "Game of Thrones". But there are nice GoT minis.

Well given that Martin claims he's going to wrap up the story in the next two books thats what six or seven books worth of solid source material to go on (as opposed to the three LOTR books, Hobbit and a lot of very IMO quite weak stuff like unfinished tales /simarillion etc).

Then HBO, if it continues to get the ratings it does will probably run until it doesnt, they have already made it clear they dont need to stick to the books.

I just think you'd get more 'life' out of backing a westeros wargame than you would out of backing 'the hobbit'.

I've tried to read the simirillian but I just can't it's so dull, I get a third of the way through and give up before I slash my wrists just to feel something again.