Midichlorians may not be liked (although I really never understood the hate), but they are canon. 'Stupid' is a matter of opinion, as with all things SW. I think them being a living organism that resonates and communicates a mystical energy gives them a pretty decent reason to be interfered with by mechanics.

But your world your rules.

Midichlorians may not be liked (although I really never understood the hate), but they are canon. 'Stupid' is a matter of opinion, as with all things SW. I think them being a living organism that resonates and communicates a mystical energy gives them a pretty decent reason to be interfered with by mechanics.

But your world your rules.

If you want to get technical with the canon, I do believe all that's left with regards to it is essentially: It's in your cells, having a lot points towards heightened sensitivity to the force, they're "necessary for life", and they tell you to do stuff - like some sort of crazed, imaginary leprechaun .

So per new canon at least you can freely interpret what midi-chlorians actually do.

I feel like Lucas watched or played Parasite Eve and decided that he really liked the idea of our mitochondria conferring powers upon us.

I feel like Lucas watched or played Parasite Eve and decided that he really liked the idea of our mitochondria conferring powers upon us.

Well as Lucas came up with the idea as far back as 1977 and Parasite Eve was '98 I highly doubt it.

Well as Lucas came up with the idea as far back as 1977 and Parasite Eve was '98 I highly doubt it.

Well as Lucas came up with the idea as far back as 1977 and Parasite Eve was '98 I highly doubt it.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.... you really need to cite that. Because no, no he didn't come up with that nonsense back then.

Perhaps you'd like to contact J. W. Rinzler ("The Making of Star Wars") and inform him that the audio taped George Lucas interviews from 1977 are incorrect then.

Get back to me when you get a reply.

Well as Lucas came up with the idea as far back as 1977 and Parasite Eve was '98 I highly doubt it.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.... you really need to cite that. Because no, no he didn't come up with that nonsense back then.

Perhaps you'd like to contact J. W. Rinzler ("The Making of Star Wars") and inform him that the audio taped George Lucas interviews from 1977 are incorrect then.

Get back to me when you get a reply.

There is no way Lucas came up with midichlorians in the 1970s. There's also nothing in the movies, the only source that matters, to indicate cybernetics have any impact on Force capability. Obviously, FFG agrees with my interpretation.

Well as Lucas came up with the idea as far back as 1977 and Parasite Eve was '98 I highly doubt it.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.... you really need to cite that. Because no, no he didn't come up with that nonsense back then.

Perhaps you'd like to contact J. W. Rinzler ("The Making of Star Wars") and inform him that the audio taped George Lucas interviews from 1977 are incorrect then.

Get back to me when you get a reply.

That quote was actually altered to include the name midi-chlorian. The statement that force-use was tied to genetics is legitimate but the name-drop was added for the book

Correct. The actual word is a modern term, but the concept dates back to '77.

I had another thought (dangerous, I know!)

Vader, specifically, may be a special case regarding (potential) weakened force abilities. In the novel Dark Lord, set just after Ep III, we get a scene where Vader is 'newly born' so to speak. He is having an internal dialogue where he is bemoaning the crudeness of his robotics, and that it is taking a deal of his concentration to even walk properly. He is also in constant, agonising pain.

So it could be that he has less power than when he was Anakin simply because he is having to draw on the force to overcome the crudeness of his robotics, and to suppress the pain. This has nothing to do with the cybernetics affecting force use per se, which is why a single robotic hand didn't slow down Luke or Anakin too much. But with Vader the sheer amount of mechanics is drawing on his concentration to some extent.

Out of interest (never played Saga or WEG) did the earlier games mention this at all?

EDIT:

Just found this. Apparently in Empire of Dreams, Lucas is quoted as saying:

However, after all of his limbs were severed, and he was extremely burned on Mustafar, he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar, he would have been twice as powerful.

So it would appear there is something to the lose limbs/lose force potential after all.

I had another thought (dangerous, I know!)

Vader, specifically, may be a special case regarding (potential) weakened force abilities. In the novel Dark Lord, set just after Ep III, we get a scene where Vader is 'newly born' so to speak. He is having an internal dialogue where he is bemoaning the crudeness of his robotics, and that it is taking a deal of his concentration to even walk properly. He is also in constant, agonising pain.

So it could be that he has less power than when he was Anakin simply because he is having to draw on the force to overcome the crudeness of his robotics, and to suppress the pain. This has nothing to do with the cybernetics affecting force use per se, which is why a single robotic hand didn't slow down Luke or Anakin too much. But with Vader the sheer amount of mechanics is drawing on his concentration to some extent.

Out of interest (never played Saga or WEG) did the earlier games mention this at all?

EDIT:

Just found this. Apparently in Empire of Dreams, Lucas is quoted as saying:

However, after all of his limbs were severed, and he was extremely burned on Mustafar, he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar, he would have been twice as powerful.

So it would appear there is something to the lose limbs/lose force potential after all.

Saga Edition gave PCs a -1 penalty to their Use the Force checks for each cybernetic replacement they had. Luke suffered a -1 for his hand, and Vader was at -4 for his limbs (life support was considered part of his armor). WEG had a PC more likely to incur multiple dark side points based upon Obi-Wan's "twisted and evil" line. I don't recall how OCR/RCR dealt with the issue though.

Interesting, cheers.

Based on the comments, I definitely think that the usage of an "effective" Force Rating could be of value. This EFR would be used for the prerequisites of the Force Powers. Cybernetics would lower an EFR by 1 or 2 points per unit, and this would also allow for reduction or increases in other ways. If an EFR was less than the minimum needed for a force power tree, then the character would lose access to that power until his EFR rose over it again.

Talking about Vader, where does the idea that his cybernetic implants were crude and low quality? i read that many times on wookiepedia and other places but neve found the reason why people came up with that idea. It doesn't make much sense for the emperor to give him lower quality replacements, he'd be much better served to have Vader fitted with the best implants available, to maximize his effectiveness after Mustafar.

And, why couldn't Vader have his artificial limbs replaced with better ones later? we're talking about legs and arms not his lungs and life support.

Also Vader may not have learned force lighting simply cause he didn't like it. Darth Maul was a full fledged sith but never bothers to use it either.

Talking about Vader, where does the idea that his cybernetic implants were crude and low quality? i read that many times on wookiepedia and other places but neve found the reason why people came up with that idea. It doesn't make much sense for the emperor to give him lower quality replacements, he'd be much better served to have Vader fitted with the best implants available, to maximize his effectiveness after Mustafar.

And, why couldn't Vader have his artificial limbs replaced with better ones later? we're talking about legs and arms not his lungs and life support.

If I remember correctly, it was essentially to ensure that Vader was strong enough to still hunt down Jedi and handle any other threat that warrants him to be called in, but still far too weak to take on Palpatine directly - which is something Vader has been wanting to do for a while, but needed the help of Luke, or really any capable but loyal apprentice, to do (Luke obviously turning down the offer to rule the galaxy together).

Talking about Vader, where does the idea that his cybernetic implants were crude and low quality? i read that many times on wookiepedia and other places but neve found the reason why people came up with that idea. It doesn't make much sense for the emperor to give him lower quality replacements, he'd be much better served to have Vader fitted with the best implants available, to maximize his effectiveness after Mustafar.

And, why couldn't Vader have his artificial limbs replaced with better ones later? we're talking about legs and arms not his lungs and life support.

Also Vader may not have learned force lighting simply cause he didn't like it. Darth Maul was a full fledged sith but never bothers to use it either.

In the case of Maul, I think it was noted that he preferred to focus on the physical side of things, with most of his Force usage being directed towards physically dominating his opponents, to the point that he didn't even bother with Dun Moch (which uses verbal taunts combined with the Force to batter and weaken an opponent's will) and instead kept quiet during his fights, relying solely upon his intimidating appearance to make lesser enemies afraid. Beyond a quick bit of telekinesis during the Theed Hanger fight, he really only uses the Force to bolster his physical prowess (Enhance power), and in game terms might only have the basic Move power as his only other Force power.

I totally agree with your assessment about Maul, Donovan, and i imagine that Vader went down that route as well after Mustafar, the big difference would be that he is cunnig enough to use Dun Moch and telekinesis to help him in the fights. But even in the OT Anakin struck me as melee oriented guy, so to me it's not strange that even as a Darth Vader, he never bothered to learn Force lightning.

personal crazy theory: since in the movie we never see Anakin witness Sidious fight with his lightsaber (i'm fuzzy here, maybe he saw the last bit of the duel with Mace Windu) he may believe that Sidius isn't that great duelist and mostly uses his powers because they are his strong point, and so he goes down the lightsaber combatant route to diferentiate form the Emperor and (in his dreams) have an advantage the moment he would challenge him.

Very far fetched theory, i know, but on the other hand i totally see Darth Sidious keeping his saber prowess a secret from him.

As for the theory that the Emperor wanted to keep Vader effective but less powerful so not to challenge him, isn't that against the very idea of the rule of two? Isn't the apprentice supposed become strong enought to kill his master, eventually?

A few random thoughts:

Vader never struck me as particularly weak. Sure his tendency to choke out subordinates might have given him a repuation not becoming his actual power level, but isn't it mentioned somewhere that Vader hunted down and murdered all of the Jedi that were left (and he could find) after Order 66? That would take some skills.

We see, in ESB, Vader casually deflect multiple heavy blaster shots from Han with his hand, apparently without suffering from any detrimental effects (i.e no apprent damage to the hand). Dooku did a similar deflection when Yoda sent his own lightning back at him. That tells me he can still use his cybernetic limbs to channel the force.

It may just be me, but I've always thought that the force is found in EVERYTHING per Yoda: " For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship ." Darth Vader, while maybe not luminous in the light side of the force, still exists and even his cybernetics are part of the force. He also appears to be quite a powerful "sorcerer" in the force. He force chokes someone on a different ship, pretty hard check I would think.

Even though this is now Legends, the Shard's ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shard ) can use the force and operate inside droid bodies. Since they don't have "bodies" does this mean they can use the force as well as someone with a "body?"

Ultimately I agree with the sentiment that it is the GM/PCs discretion as to what makes the most sense in the given situation.