The Shii Cho Knight talent "Multiple Opponents" gives you a boost dice when fighting multiple opponents yet no change when taking on just one opponent.

However the Makashi Duelist talent "Duelist's Training" gives you a boost die when fighting one opponent BUT a setback die when fighting multiple opponents.

I don't see that a Talent, which is something that gives your characters advantages, should ever have something in it to give you a disadvantage. And why dose the Talent that is the direct opposite of "Duelist's Training" not give you a setback dice for fighting just one opponent?

I think the setback dice in "Duelist's Training" should be taken out all together and just get the boost for going one on one.

How many other talents through all the EotE and AoR books provide a setback die in certain circumstances? Are there any? If not, then I'd say just the boost die is fine otherwise "Multiple Opponents" should probably have the setback die added.

I'd be more inclined to remove the Setback from duelist, than add one to gang fight.

The setback die on Duelist's Training does fit with Makashi not being so good at handling multiple foes but better at one-on-one fights. After all, Dooku had more trouble dealing with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the opening rounds of their rematch in RotS, but was able to deal with them individually far easier in AotC. Problem for him was that he was already worn down before he was able to remove Obi-Wan from the fight, by which time Anakin's sheer brute power overcame Dooku's finesse-based Makashi.

As for Multiple Opponents, I don't think a Setback die is needed. While Shii-Cho is good against multiple foes at once (such as minion groups), it's not exactly weak in one-on-one battles either, which makes sense as it's the foundation of all the other Lightsaber Forms. Being outnumbered in a fight already comes with a built-in disadvantage, much like fighting in a basement carries the problem that you're fighting in a basement.

Like the Inglorious Basterds reference.

Regarding Duelist's Training, had an idea for how to re-work the talent.

Benefit: When engaged with a single opponent, negate one setback die from any Lightsaber (Presence) checks you make.

This way, you still get a perk when dueling a single foe, but aren't gimped when facing a group, with said perk being especially handy against foes with Defensive weapons, armor that provides a defense bonus, or that have the Defensive Training talent. As I noted earlier, Multiple Opponents already carries a drawback (dealing with multiple foes, particularly if they're not all in a single minion group, and even that could get hairy depending on the number of minions), and works within the notion of Makashi being a dueling style, part of which is identifying and exploiting the flaws in your opponent's own style.

In the pod cast Sam mentioned it was his idea, although if everyone finds it universally unappealing they would consider a tweak.

I prefer it as written... makes a lot of thematic sense, and this RPG is not really designed for Min-Maxers anyway. Also in the order66 podcast, GMPhil mentioned it might only be active when using that form... so if you learn multiple forms, perhaps the setback happens only if the last lightsaber check used Presence instead of another form that uses Brawn/whatever. Wouldn't be too hard to implement, and if you had a higher Presence you might want to use the Duelist form anyway.

I don't think it's good to pay xp for what is ultimately a zero-sum talent.

Either, they should take away the setback die, or make the bonus two boost dice.

I think it shouldn't have a setback die.

It seems more like a flavor element than a balancing element.

Even if you remove the setback die you still have the flavor. Multiple Opponents still makes you better against multiple opponents and Duelist Training only makes you better at one-on-one. It seems like a character with ranks in Lightsaber should be able to instinctively default to basic lightsaber skills and not use specialized dueling skills when they are a hindrance.

If the flavor is that a Makashi duelist isn't as good vs multiple opponents as other focused lightsaber form practitioners...this is born out by each respective lighsaber form practitioner actually sinking XP into their own specialties. Comparatively the Makashi duelist isn't as good vs multiple opponents.

You're also left with the scenario if you've got a double spec build where you've picked up both Multiple Opponents and Duelist Training your lightsaber master cannot pick which "form" he's using depending on the situation.

As for facing off against multiple opponents being inherently more dangerous so Multiple Opponents being used in more risky circumstances than Duelist Training warrants it be a better talent: this is highly circumstantial.

What if the Shi-cho Knight faces off against the stormtrooper minions while the Makashi Duelist faces off with the Inquisitor (Nemesis)?

I don't think it's good to pay xp for what is ultimately a zero-sum talent.

Either, they should take away the setback die, or make the bonus two boost dice.

It's only a zero-sum talent if the number of times the Duelist is in combat with a single opponent is equal to the number of times the Duelist is in combat with a group of opponents. A duelist should try to separate and fight his opponents one at a time to maximize the advantage of his chosen fighting style. That way he will get the benefit more often than he will take a penalty. It's also a fairly cheap talent as far as xp is concerned.

I don't think it's good to pay xp for what is ultimately a zero-sum talent.

Either, they should take away the setback die, or make the bonus two boost dice.

It's only a zero-sum talent if the number of times the Duelist is in combat with a single opponent is equal to the number of times the Duelist is in combat with a group of opponents. A duelist should try to separate and fight his opponents one at a time to maximize the advantage of his chosen fighting style. That way he will get the benefit more often than he will take a penalty. It's also a fairly cheap talent as far as xp is concerned.

It's highly circumstantial as you highlight so why should it cost the same as Multiple Opponents but have an additional drawback.

If the mechanical effect is balanced is should cost 10XP (just like Multiple Opponents).

Is there anything else in the game balanced around the idea of highly circumstantial encounter elements that push characters to maximize their Talent usefulness - not only to achieve the benefit of a Talent but also to avoid suffering a "penalty"?

Is there anything else in the game that indicates a general balance issue between one-on-one fighting vs multiple opponent fighting?

If being able to get a boost to one-on-one combat really is more useful than Multiple Opponents then it should cost more.

And what about a dual Specialized character that has both Duelist Training and Multiple Opponents?

But I don't think this is a balance issue. I think it's a flavor issue.

And either way should we then expect the forms which don't focus on dueling to get a setback die on their Talents when engaged one-on-one?

Is a Makashi practitioner supposed to be weaker at fighting multiple opponents than someone who has no specific form-focused training (e.g., they just have ranks in Lightsaber but no lightsaber form Specialization)?

I think that fluff wise Jedi were trained in Shii-cho as a training and fundamentals form at the beginning of their lightsaber instruction. Having ranks in Lightsaber probably emulates this. Someone who's actually got the Shii-cho Knight Specialization is probably someone who has refined and further developed the form and is mastering it (or mastered it). So in theory the Makashi duelist has had this training - though not as in depth as the Shii-cho Knight - and can choose to not use the Makashi techniques or modify them when confronted with more than one opponent, just like a character with only ranks in Lightsaber and no lightsaber form Talents.

I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above, that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

As always the simplest solution is the best: Drop the Setback die.