Yeah, can't say I'm a fan of the idea of requiring a Force user to split their XP even more than they already have to between talents, skills, and Force powers.

Honestly, I can't see what the huge aversion to allowing a Force user the option of Discipline or Mechanics to upgrade their 'saber crystal really is, or even just the notion of letting them add boost dice equal to their Force Rating as someone else had suggested (and something I even used in my Ways of the Force for the Discipline check to construct a lightsaber).

Aside from all the things we have said...

The talent comprehend Technology is designed to do basically what you're saying. And for LS, this would render the talent pretty null (and to be fair, the artisan would probably be using it a lot on his/her LS.

It's not really a huge deal Dono. But it's power creep. it's a little here, a little from making parry/reflect better. it's a little in making the improved one's better. it's just these little bits of extra where suddenly the force users have a substantial leg up because they can specialize, and not suffer the same draw backs as non-force using characters for that specialization.

But I don't know how much more can be said that hasn't already, except to present alternatives, and maybe one will stick. Because I agree that there should be some aspect of bonding with a saber crystal, but not the full extent of the mods as presented in the book.

Ok, where was I?

Oh, yeah.

I like the idea of both tinkering with a lightsaber to get more oomph out of it, and the narrative aspect of becoming more in tune with your crystal and drawing out its intrinsic qualities (which are only bequeathed to those who are attuned to it).

I can see a character conferring with a master artisan to craft a lightsaber hilt of surpassing beauty, balance and perhaps tweaking the focusing lens to provide for a sharper "blade".

Now, the mechanical aspects are pretty much already covered. However, it would be nice if the qualities of the lightsaber could be had by more than through the crystal. Emitters, focusing lens' have all been mentioned. More options/attachments for personalizing your lightsaber would only increase the individuality of each character's weapon of choice.

For the second part, "becoming one with your crystal", which is related in the expanded literature repeatedly, is more narrative in aspect, and not easily accomplished with credits and die rolls.

Therefor I present:

Attuning a Kyber Crystal

Spend 10 experience to attune your Kyber crystal to yourself. Add a Boost die when wielding a lightsaber with the attuned crystal.

Additionally, every Kyber crystal has additional benefits that can be brought forth with additional experience and further bonding with the crystal. Each crystal lists the kind of benefits they offer. Each benefit costs five additional experience, and may, or may not, require a specific skill check be made to acquire the benefit. (The player and gamemaster are encouraged to come up with their own qualities that can serve as benefits to attuning a specific crystal for the players use.)

Illum Crystal

Base Modifiers: Base damage 6, Critical rating 2, Breach 1, and Sunder.

Attunements: 2 Damage +1, 1 Reduce Critical rating by 1.

Lorrdian Gemstone

Base Modifiers: Base damage 6, Critical rating 2, Breach 1, and Sunder.

Attunements: 1 item Quality (Defensive + 2), 2 item Quality (Deflection + 1)

(The above assumes that some benefits have been offloaded to other attachments (emitter, lens, whatever...))

We could also attach the provision that the benefit is not provided until the character makes a certain ability test (for additional crunchiness). For example, the Lorrdian Gemstone might require a Hard Lightsaber or Vigilance check to gain the benefits (the XP are spent, and the benefit is not there until a narratively made check is succeeded at).

Ok, that's probably not the best explanation, but that's all I'm up for for now.

The only concern here is now the crystal becomes protected as an xp sink. so as i believe Dono noted, it comes to a couple hard issues at the table (like the LS getting stolen, the crystal getting damaged or lost, or just finding a newer better crystal, not to mention it's one more thing to spend xp on).

it's an interesting option, not one that I think I'm fully on board with, but it is another way to model the "special journey" and differentiate the crystal upgrades from mundane upgrades.

Forgot to add -- "if the crystal is irredeemably lost, the character can reinvest the spent experience"

But, yeah -- after writing that all up -- it's getting quite fiddly and adds a bit of accounting that just isn't all that much fun.

However, without something... narrative... to represent bonding with a lightsaber crystal, the Discipline/Mechanics roll just leaves me wanting.

And who says that modifying the crystal involves soldering loose wires or adjusing the energy cells or any other bit of techno-babble?

I just did. You're not going to convince me, I think 99% of the EU is pure bull and hokem (also I haven't directly interacted with 99% of the EU, so there is also that).

I'm against the entire concept of "modding lightsabers" completely. There weren't none of that there nonsense in the Only Three Movie That Matter so...

Yeah, I'll be allowing it, but I don't have to like it. I'll be on my porch shaking my cane at those youngsters modding their lightsabers on my lawn...

Well news flash bub, but when it comes to the game in general, you're NOT the final authority on what FFG chooses to do with this game. In fact, none of us that post here are, thus why threads I've started have been "suggestions" to the design team, as unlike you I don't labor under a delusion that anyone has to accept the alternate approaches I've put forth in terms of the game mechanics. In fact, FFG could very well decide that every posted idea on these boards are complete and utter crap and just keep the book as-is aside from addressing typos and editing errors.

And just because you dislike the EU doesn't mean everyone else does, and in fact FFG owes a large portion of the content that's in their books to the EU, and the design team are themselves pretty major-league Star Wars fans/nerds with a fairly broad enjoyment of the EU.

Knock the EU all you want, but it's still a thing and still very much a resource that FFG will continue to tap as they produce more and more sourcebooks. There are portions of I don't like, and are glad to see removed from the mainstream canon (Yuuzhan Vong and Traviss' take on Mandos being the two biggest), but if FFG wants to incorporate those EU elements that I don't like into their game, the only say I have in the matter is whether or not to buy that particular sourcebook.

As for Comprehend Technology, I'd suggest re-reading what the talent actually does as opposed to what you think it does.

It's fairly broad in it's application, covering not only Mechanics, but also the various combat skills and quite possibly piloting skills (depending on how the GM reads the term "item"). The text in the Talents section suggests substituting Ranged (Light) ranks with Force Rating when firing a blaster pistol, so this same talent could be used to suddenly have ranks in Gunnery equal to the Artisan's Force Rating for using that Heavy Repeating Blaster emplacement they just found or if needing to suddenly man the ship's laser cannons because one of their primary gunners is out of action.

So the idea to allow Discipline to subsitute for Mechanics for a single very specific task (modifying a lightsaber crystal) really doesn't step on Comprehend Technology's toes one bit. And it doesn't tread on Intuitive Improvements either, since that's more about adding permanent hard points to an item.

Perhaps the Discipline idea might meet with less resistance if instead of replacing the Intellect/Mechanics check with Willpower/Discipline, it instead becomes an option of Intellect/Mechanics or Intellect/Discipline.

Since Intellect is still something of a "dump stat" for most Force users (big exception would be Soresu Defenders given they can use Intellect for the Lightsaber skill), it alleviates the concern of most Force users being able to use one of their "awesome" Characteristics (since it provides both Strain Threshold for the LS Form characters as well tying into Force power usage courtesy of Discipline), will still not forcing the Force user to split their XP further than they already have to, particularly if being a skilled mechanic isn 't part of their character concept.

I'd suggest you reread what I posted. I said in relationship to LS (meaning lightsabers). [i apologize, but the quote function is having its customary tantrum and won't work for me.]

Your suggestion grants every force user the ability to essentially replicate comprehend technology on their light sabers for modification purposes for free, and with less difficulty. This strikes me as being bad, for all the reasons that have been said (it is power creep, it favors force users and their chosen weapons over non force users, it diminishes the artisan spec, etc.)

The artisan can use comprehend technology for a lot of things, but it can specifically be used to modify Ligthsabers. And often will. I would expect nothing less. but if comprehend technology exists on a broader level (meaning the designers thought about it) but a similar mechanism doesn't exist in a more narrow way (for force users and their light sabers) it's possible they found the idea ... not suitable.

I've never spoken with Sam, but I don't lean on anecdotal evidence, so I can't comment on intent. I have tried to explain all the reasons why this is probably not a good idea. I also admit it's not the end of the world, but a potential slippery slope for people to abuse and justify why all manner of things should be usable with discipline, rather than designing well rounded and versatile characters, like we have been for the last 2 years.

EDIT: I never mention intuitive improvements, so why did you bring that up? That was a spurious dig, and uncalled for.
also, edited for clarity.

FURTHER EDIT: I'm away from book, but I was under the impression that modifying equipment was one of the applications of comp tech. if I'm wrong then mea culpa. it doesn't change the fact that artisan is diminished by the suggestion, just the extent and that talent remains unaffected and a full signature ability.

Using Comprhend Technology would simply let the Artisan replace their Mechanics skill with Force Rating, which for most Artisans is going to be a losing proposition since their Mechanics skill ranks are going to outstrip their Force Rating without spending several hundred XP to boost up their Force Rating. Discipline has exactly zilch to do with the talent, which as I noted is incredibly broad in what it can be used for; in short, it lets the Artisan use their Force Rating in place of a skill which they may very well not have, and could be incredibly broad depending upon GM interpretation of the term "item", up to and including being used for Piloting checks (though most GMs don't count vehicles or starships as being items, some do).

And as others have noted, it goes very much against the idea of a lightsaber being a very personal item to a Jedi if they simply hand it off to the group mechanic (Artisan or otherwise) to perform the various crystal modifications. We never hear of Luke handing his 'saber off to Chewie and ask him to modify it for a better performance; he simply does so himself, and there's very little to suggest that Luke is a master mechanic. He's certainly capable of at least basic repairs on droids, speeders and moisture vaporators, but nothing to suggest he's a master engineer, which is what a Force user would have to be in this game if they wanted to have a decent shot at adding more than one or two modifications to their 'saber crystal.

And while evileyeore may not give two chits about the EU, the fact remains that the EU exists, that FFG makes plenty of use out of it, and there is a precedence for a Force user using the Force to affect a 'saber crystal and make it suitable for usage as a 'saber crystal, starting with Luke Skywalker doing so prior to RotJ (and covered in Shadows of the Empire) creating an artificial crystal for use in the lightsaber he'd built to replace the one lost at Bespin. And as said to evileyeore, there's NOTHING in the rules text that says modifying a lightsaber crystal is a purely mechanical task, and it could very well be a Force user using the Force to remove minor impurities from the crystal to enhance its performance.

Ultimately, it's a very minor bone to throw to Force users to let them use a skil they're more like to be good at for a personal weapon. Sorry to see that some folks have such a wild hair up their nethers about what's really just a minor thing

Well news flash bub, but when it comes to the game in general, you're NOT the final authority on what FFG chooses to do with this game.

Apparently since I didn't roll over and immediately cave in, you're now upset and angry. Grow up, we're just talking about a game.

Dono, don't get wild hairs up your nethers because people disagree with you about the suggestion.

I will say that the comprehend technology example (my last of several) is not a good example, and I retract that. but the fact is that while I agree that "jedi" should have a "special journey" I (and others) don't think the suggestion is the best way to go about it, as it's consolidating the roles of skills that should remain separate.

Had you suggested know: lore, or know:educ, I don't think I would care as much, as those skills are underutilized, and blend well with a knowledge theme. it's the choice of discipline that I see as questionable.

And I think many of us have said several times it's not a big deal.

Honestly, I can't see what the huge aversion to allowing a Force user the option of Discipline or Mechanics to upgrade their 'saber crystal really is, or even just the notion of letting them add boost dice equal to their Force Rating as someone else had suggested (and something I even used in my Ways of the Force for the Discipline check to construct a lightsaber).

Being highly Disciplined does not allow one to better solder a lose wire.

But that's just my take on it.

So Jedi Knights and Masters who constructed and improved their lightsabers were also master mechanics? With the full range of mechanics abilities that also implies?

Can you show us that they weren't?

I mean, Obi-wan did manage to sabotage a death star, Annikin is widely known as being mechanically inclined... Palpatine rally loved staring at that death star blue print (though I could never see his hands...)

More to the point, in the films and series, we see lightsaber construction being a big part of jedi training. safe guarding your weapon is a big part of the training. I don't remember yoda ever saying to luke that he needed to meditate on the crystal of his saber.

In all the clone wars series, I don't know if they mention meditating and bonding with the crystal at all outside of construction.

How do we judge within the series that one saber is "better" than the other?

The EU is the main source for these, the books and comics. And they can and maybe should be represented, but if we're looking at the series and films there's no evidence to confirm or deny this assertion in either direction. so what we are left with then is it's effect on the game balance and it's narrative importance, in relationship to that balance. That is the core of this suggestion's merit, IMO.

Anakin had mechanical expertise but this seemed like a fairly obvious outlier.

The Clone Wars makes it clear that you need to use the force to construct a lightsaber.

It's similar to holocrons. As they are described you need the force to create one.

Certainly there is a mechanical portion to it but the difficult part is using the force to make the process work.

Using the FFG mod system you don't need to make any check whatsoever to construct a lightsaber or to gain the Base Modifiers of an attachment - you only need to make a check to use the Modification Options on the various attachments.

So narratively you can explain the ability to construct a lightsaber any way you want.

The question is what makes more sense for taking the lightsaber further.

I agree with Dono that Discipline makes more sense than Mechanics because lightsabers flavor wise are a "mystical" weapon and if the Jedi developed these mods (including mods to crystals) it seems unlikely they were primarily mechanical improvements only within reach of Jedi who have devoted themselves to Mechanics (and Mechanics in general) as much if not more than to any other aspect of their training.

And, yes, the movies the The Clone Wars don't indicate that a lightsaber can be modded to the degree RPGs have presented them so if you think a lightsaber is just a lightsaber and modding doesn't fit the style and flavor you want then just build a lightsaber using the F&D system and deem this to be The Lightsaber (maybe allowing for the different handles to be the only way to modify them).

Why is Annikin an outlier? Why do you discount that obi-wan had some mechanical expertise to disable a tractor beam? Even Luke was mechanically inclined to some degree (otherwise why oh why would a farm boy want power converters). You're discounting some principal examples because they are "obvious" outliers, with no reasons provided. could you elaborate?

Is everyone cool with working hard over multiple sessions to find a rare crystal, build a lightsaber, and then fail your first mod roll meaning your hard to replace crystal is stuck at 6 damage forever?

I don't know if I am. The mod system works for lower cost attachments for ship systems or baster add-ons, but crystals are too precious in this setting.

Is everyone cool with working hard over multiple sessions to find a rare crystal, build a lightsaber, and then fail your first mod roll meaning your hard to replace crystal is stuck at 6 damage forever?

I don't know if I am. The mod system works for lower cost attachments for ship systems or baster add-ons, but crystals are too precious in this setting.

Well, it seems some folks are fine with screwing over Force users in some form or another, even if just on their own personal bias.

Although, it's a matter of debate that if you fail a modification check to increase damage that it locks off all further damage modification options. One camp is of the view you posted, that as soon as you fail once, all further damage increase mods are off-limits, the other is the opposite view that you only lose the chance at that particularly modification, and could still attempt further damage modifications.

To my knowledge, there's been no official word on the topic, and I've not been bothered enough by it to ask, though since it could now be an issue, particularly where the Ilum crystal and it's slew of modifications are concerned.

Edit: There's also a very valid point that a crystal attachment is loads more expensive (on top of being Restricted) in comparison to the majority of other attachments. If you screw up on modifying a Forearm Grip to get the Accurate Quality, you can simply strip it out, pay the 250 credits for a new one, and try again. Same with a Spread Barrel to increase the Blast quality, or a Weapon Sling to get that Innate Talent (Quick Draw).

A ligthsaber crystal is going to cost more money than many PCs are likely to see through honest work, and screwing up a modification there carries a much stiffer penalty since replacing it with a new crystal generally isn't going to be a viable option most of the time.

The EU is the main source for these, the books and comics.

Is everyone cool with working hard over multiple sessions to find a rare crystal, build a lightsaber, and then fail your first mod roll meaning your hard to replace crystal is stuck at 6 damage forever?

Well, it seems some folks are fine with screwing over Force users in some form or another, even if just on their own personal bias.

Cry me a river.

Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

Now, having ranted above...


I can see why people would want to base Saber modding on Discipline (or Knowledge: Lore which I'm partial to), they're caught up in the romance of the Blade, the inherent mystical connection of a Samurai and his Katana Jedi and his Lightsaber.

As such I'd be totally cool with an optional sidebar rule for those folks.

Why is Annikin an outlier? Why do you discount that obi-wan had some mechanical expertise to disable a tractor beam? Even Luke was mechanically inclined to some degree (otherwise why oh why would a farm boy want power converters). You're discounting some principal examples because they are "obvious" outliers, with no reasons provided. could you elaborate?

Well, Obi-wan Kenobi flipped a switch. He didn't need great mechanical expertise to pull it off. He just pushed the button.

Luke needing power converters? It's a sci-fi setting so interacting with technology is normal - being able to create your own technologically advanced devices from scratch or kit bash on "standard" device models is something else entirely.

I can do some very basic repairs on my car and do some maintenance but I have almost no mechanical expertise. Just because I can install a new head light doesn't mean I can rebuild an engine.

As I stated you can add attachments without any check. If one doesn't think that the setting justifies a lot of lightsaber modification by Jedi then they can just use the base mods in their games.

But utilizing the option modifications gets very difficult quickly - far beyond what we see demonstrated in the movies (the most mechanically minded characters in the movie are Han-solo and Chewy) and far beyond what a typical Jedi is going to be able to pull of in the FFG system. Making it a Discipline roll means that they have a chance - making it mechanics means it's way too expensive for most characters to attempt (on their own).

If the final rules stick with Mechanics then GMs could house rule it to use Discipline or provide mentors, holocron instruction, etc that make the roll easier or an auto-success if they wish.

My main problem with making it a Mechanics check is that it seems like hardly any Jedi will use it because the cost of being that good at Mechanics probably isn't worth it when you have force powers, lightsaber talents and more force-focused talents to buy.

Well, Obi-wan Kenobi flipped a switch. He didn't need great mechanical expertise to pull it off. He just pushed the button.

I can do some very basic repairs on my car and do some maintenance but I have almost no mechanical expertise. Just because I can install a new head light doesn't mean I can rebuild an engine.

My main problem with making it a Mechanics check is that it seems like hardly any Jedi will use it because the cost of being that good at Mechanics probably isn't worth it when you have force powers, lightsaber talents and more force-focused talents to buy.

* Was it Donovan Morningfire? Why yes, yes it was.

Isn't there some kind of middle ground here? I've seen it on both sides of whether you should have another mod a lightsaber, but in KoTOR II that old chick tuned the crystal for you. The rest of the benefits were from your alignment. I don't like the idea of giving my special sword to another to upgrade it, but that is one precedent I can think of for it.

Otherwise, I haven't actually play-tested this, but it seems like it might work well enough.

Isn't there some kind of middle ground here? I've seen it on both sides of whether you should have another mod a lightsaber, but in KoTOR II that old chick tuned the crystal for you. The rest of the benefits were from your alignment. I don't like the idea of giving my special sword to another to upgrade it, but that is one precedent I can think of for it.

Otherwise, I haven't actually play-tested this, but it seems like it might work well enough.

I suggested a bit earlier that a Force user be allowed to use the Discipline skill , but that the check be made using the Intellect Characteristic instead.

That would be a fairly good middle ground that doesn't step on any spec's toes, since the few talents that allow a substitution are restricted to changing which Characteristic is used for that one roll, or substituting Force Rating for skill rating in the case of Comprehend Technology.