My group are, frankly, power gamers and munchkins. Without my firm hand of GMing to keep them on the straight and narrow who knows what insanity would ensue.

However they don't own many of the supplements beyond the core rule book. I have most of the books. The question came up, could a marine given unlimited experience points and whatever equipment they wanted ever get to a point where they could take on a Bloodthirster in a one on one fight? (no elite advances though).

The only restrictions are that the weaponry had to be man portable, so no vehicles and no dirty tricks like calling in a Lance strike. I suppose Bikes are allowed at a pinch as would simple emplacements like Tarantulas.

I guess in terms of distance lets say a maximum distance of 500m seperates the two adversaries and there is average cover for both combatants (not withstanding the size disparity).

Personally I am not a power gamer and don't hugely have the mindset to trawl the rule books for the 'perfect' combination. But I did promise to put the question to the community....so is it possible?. Can a single marine ever hope to prevail against Khornes finest?

(I'll brace myself for the horror and madness of munchkinisim that will come forth).

Offhand, I'd say no. Bloodthirsters are supposed to be the top tier, so unless the Marine is a Grey Knight Grand Master or something else suitably heroic, he's going to need help from his mates to last more than a round. The whole "unlimited experience" thing makes it sort of a toss-up, but even the most experienced Astartes will never be a Primarch, much less a equivalent to a GK who is conditioned and trained to fight demons for his entire centuries-long career. Focused man-portable lascannon fire alone might do it, providing the monster started far enough away and the Astartes hit him constantly on the way in, but once it closes, he's toast.

But, you're the GM. Put your put down and tell them no. Bloodthirsters are too hard, and even Marneus Calgar would need divine intervention to beat the crap out of one.

*looks at the Lifting & Throwing table* How much does a Bloodthirster weigh?

On a more serious note, wasn't there some crazy way how a Space Wolf or Blood Angel could get score several dozen points of damage with a single axe-swing? I recall this being talked about in a thread several months ago.

You can do some impressive stuff with Fate Points, Demeanours and Solo Mode in DW.

Obligatory: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dougie_McIsaac

Accurate concussion missiles could in-theory keep him stun locked while knocking his health down steadily.

Add in a jump pack to keep your distance and it should be a fairly straight forward smackdown.

Offhand, I'd say no. Bloodthirsters are supposed to be the top tier, so unless the Marine is a Grey Knight Grand Master or something else suitably heroic, he's going to need help from his mates to last more than a round. The whole "unlimited experience" thing makes it sort of a toss-up, but even the most experienced Astartes will never be a Primarch, much less a equivalent to a GK who is conditioned and trained to fight demons for his entire centuries-long career. Focused man-portable lascannon fire alone might do it, providing the monster started far enough away and the Astartes hit him constantly on the way in, but once it closes, he's toast.

But, you're the GM. Put your put down and tell them no. Bloodthirsters are too hard, and even Marneus Calgar would need divine intervention to beat the crap out of one.

Feel free to use a Grey Knight character if that would help. I suspect there is no way of inflicting enough damage though.

Fluff wise, the Space Marine is toast. Mechanically, any game which uses random chance can't ever make it impossible for an inferior force to win out against a superior one, just exceedingly unlikely. In terms of Tabletop rules, even, a Space Marine of any of the kinds used in the Deathwatch rule system could take one out, if it got lucky. It's fairly obvious, too, that a Space Marine in Tabletop is the equivalent of a Rank 1 Space Marine in Deathwatch, so by the time you get to deep rank 8, yes, they definitely and clearly "could" take out a Bloodthirster.

If you are asking if you can make a space marine which can take out a Bloodthirster with statistically average rolls, while the Bloodthirster takes proper advantage of cover during his approach, that's a very different thing. And in terms of that, I would like to say yes- given the hypothetical situation you gave, the 500m is the saving grace, and I can probably whip up a character who can do it. In fact, why not, I'll get right on that for you, using the stats from Black Crusade Tome of Blood for the Bloodthirster, of course. But be aware that such a situation would *never* happen- the Bloodthirster, by very definition, would not be alone, the Space Marine would *certainly* not be both alone *and* uninjured, with full supplies, and they would not plop down 500m away from each other and engage in arena style fighting, both of them aware of the other's presence, and going to town at the same time. This has no benefit other than theorycrafting for the sake of doing so.

Still, I love doing this kind of thing, so I'll be back. By "average" cover, I assume you mean 8-12 points? That's what I'm going to go with, and I'll shoot for taking him down with 12, but I'll accept victory with 8.

Never mind Bloodthirsters are supposed to be escorted by up to a score of bloodletters and the fact they generally only appear in great warp invasions....

Yeah, one on one really isn't a thing with these guys.

Fluff wise, the Space Marine is toast. Mechanically, any game which uses random chance can't ever make it impossible for an inferior force to win out against a superior one, just exceedingly unlikely. In terms of Tabletop rules, even, a Space Marine of any of the kinds used in the Deathwatch rule system could take one out, if it got lucky. It's fairly obvious, too, that a Space Marine in Tabletop is the equivalent of a Rank 1 Space Marine in Deathwatch, so by the time you get to deep rank 8, yes, they definitely and clearly "could" take out a Bloodthirster.

If you are asking if you can make a space marine which can take out a Bloodthirster with statistically average rolls, while the Bloodthirster takes proper advantage of cover during his approach, that's a very different thing. And in terms of that, I would like to say yes- given the hypothetical situation you gave, the 500m is the saving grace, and I can probably whip up a character who can do it. In fact, why not, I'll get right on that for you, using the stats from Black Crusade Tome of Blood for the Bloodthirster, of course. But be aware that such a situation would *never* happen- the Bloodthirster, by very definition, would not be alone, the Space Marine would *certainly* not be both alone *and* uninjured, with full supplies, and they would not plop down 500m away from each other and engage in arena style fighting, both of them aware of the other's presence, and going to town at the same time. This has no benefit other than theorycrafting for the sake of doing so.

Still, I love doing this kind of thing, so I'll be back. By "average" cover, I assume you mean 8-12 points? That's what I'm going to go with, and I'll shoot for taking him down with 12, but I'll accept victory with 8.

Well the conditions are kind of arbitary. The blood Thirster stats I was using were Mark of Xenos (simply because I don't have the Black Crusade stats).

500m and cover is for the benefit of the marine more than anything (i.e if there was some crazy Raven Guard tactic which relied on repeated hit and run attacks etc). If you can come up with some marine build but it gets nerfed because Blood Thirster can hug cover then feel free to ditch the cover.

Or to put it another way within reason feel free to add or remove environmental effects if it is necessary for a tactic to work

My thinking was that the Bloodthirster would have the clear advantage so any victory for the marine counts.

Obviously this is complete nonsense in terms of an actual RP scenario for all the reasons given.

Accurate concussion missiles could in-theory keep him stun locked while knocking his health down steadily.

Add in a jump pack to keep your distance and it should be a fairly straight forward smackdown.

Presumably would need to burn through the Touched By Fates as it could ignore the first couple of stuns otherwise? But this does have some promise.

Nope, won't work.

A Bloodthirster is The Stuff of Nightmares. Page 135. They cannot be stunned.

Back to the drawing board!

I want to try to make a character of each class that can bring him down, but obviously it is *much* easier for some classes than others. Without having actually made them all, I'm considering the degree of difficulty for each class to be something like (from easiest to hardest) Devastator, Librarian (since it doesn't have a collar of khorne), Techmarine, Tactical Marine, Assault Marine, Apothecary. Going to go from easiest to hardest, so without further ado, here is the obvious choice, the Devastator Marine

Imperial Fist Devastator Marine (Immovable Warrior)

WS - BS 70 (3200 XP) Str - T - Agi 60 (2250) Per - WP - Fel -

Skills n / a

Talents: Eye of Vengeance (1000), Hip Shooting (500), Marksman (500), Rapid Reload (500), Signature Wargear (Master) Lascannon (1000), Signature Wargear (Hero) Master Crafted Lascannon (1500)

Wargear: Mk VI Corvus Armor, armor history: n/a; Master Crafted Lascannon; Astartes Targeter (25)

Deeds: n/a

Distinctions: Master of Arms (Felling)

Totals: Spent XP: 10,450; Requisition used: 25; Distinctions Needed: 1;

The Battle: It does not matter who goes first. Every round, the Bloodthirster advances towards the Devastator, and ends his turn behind a giant rock, which somehow hides his entire massive frame, providing a new set of cover (12) to all locations. Every round, the Devastator uses Hip Shooting to fire a single shot at the Bloodthirster, and moves away from him, to a new position of cover as well.

Thanks to the Imperial Fist solo mode ability, the Devastator ignores half the cover bonus the Bloodthirster enjoys, treating his cover as 6. Thanks to the Felling special quality, his lascannon shots ignore 6 points of Toughness bonus from the Bloodthirster, reducing it to 12. Firing a single shot qualifies it for the eye of vengeance, and since he is testing against 130 (70 + 30 (massive) + 10 (Red dot sight) + 10 (Signature Wargear) + 10 (Devastator ability Immovable Warrior)), and can re-roll atacks against the Bloodthirster should he somehow miss, he never misses during the course of this battle, and getting an average of 7 degrees of success, ignores an additional 7 points of armor. With a base pen of 10, that means the total damage is reduced by 14.

Each shot, having the proven (3) quality and automatically confirming Righteous Fury, deals an average of 6.4 damage per die, for a total of (6.4x5+10 (lascannon) + 2 (mighty shot) + 2 (master crafted)) 46 damage per hit. When hit, the Bloodthirster suffers d5 wounds (average 2.5) not reduced by Armor or Toughness, as a result of not having any other targets or weapons with greater than melee range, thus being unable to fulfill the conditions for avoiding damage from Warp Instability. As it's only a single shot, the Bloodthirster can attempt to dodge every time, and has a 40% chance to dodge (base 50 - 10 for the targeter), with no protection fields or other defensive countermeasures in play. This results in an average of (46 - 14 = 32 damage per hit, +2.5 (warp instability), x 60% success rate) 20.7 damage per round.

With 195 wounds, it takes 10 rounds of fire to bring the Bloodthirster down, which means the weapon must be reloaded once (taking one full round action to do so). The Bloodthirster, running every turn, closes 48 meters per turn. The Iron Fist, hip shooting, adds 14 meters to the distance between them each turn, excepting the turn he spends a full round action reloading. After 11 rounds of combat, the Bloodthirster has closed 388 meters of the distance between them, leaving 112 meters remaining.

Alternately, the Bloodthirster can fly each turn, moving 60 meters with his run action instead of 48, but losing the benefit of cover. Doing so results in him taking 24.3 damage per turn, requiring 9 turns of firing to slay, thus taking 10 rounds of combat, which means he ends having closed 474 meters of the range, ending the turn before he would have been able to charge (even if he went first, his last turn he has closed 488 meters using his run action, not quite there).

It should be noted that the Bloodthirster does have one method mechanically for an assured win in this scenario. As a flyer, he can move up to High Altitude as early as its second turn (long before it has suffered a significant amount of damage), and traverse the remaining distance entirely immune to attack, moving down to hovering altitude during its charge once it is directly over the devastator, and allowing it to engage in melee after having suffered a maximum of 3 hits (2 initially, 1 from overwatch). However, though I know the altitude rules are a carry over from tabletop, I reject them, as it means the Bloodthirster is somehow closing from beyond 1200 meters (extreme range for lascannons) to melee range with a single charge action (which would normally have a distance of 48m). Even accounting for speed from diving, that is exceedingly unrealistic. As a result, I am not taking that method (or those rules) into account in my simulations.

The Librarian. Note that I really should have picked this one first, apparently. I should have known better than to expect a Librarian to not automatically be the best at any task, even this one.

Dark Angel Librarian

WS - BS - Str - T - Agi - Per - WP 60 (700 XP) Fel -

Skills: n/a

Talents: Warp Conduit (800), Psy Rating 10 (9200), Favored by the Warp (800), Rite of Sanctioning (400)

Psychic powers: Hellfire (1000)

Deeds: n/a

Distinctions: n/a

Wargear: n/a

Totals: Spent XP: 12,900; Requisition Used: 0, Distinctions needed: 0;

The Battle: It does not matter who goes first. On every one of his turns, the Librarian simply pushes Hellfire (resulting in a psy rating of 14), and then walks closer to the Bloodthirster. As it affects an area with a radius of 28 meters, it cannot be dodged by the Bloodthirster. Nor is it opposed, nor can it be resisted. There is nothing the Bloodthirster can do about it, and it deals 14d10 damage (average 84), which after accounting for armor and toughness, does 53 damage to the Bloodthirster. It takes only 4 rounds to destroy his foe. With an effective range of 728 meters, the Bloodthirster doesn't even have time to flee.

Note that while pushing, the Librarian would need to roll an 85+ twice in a row to suffer perils (2% chance), and otherwise suffers the psychic phenomena set via Rite of Sanctioning, which is presumably harmless. There is thus no realistic chance anything negative happens to him as a result of this, especially with only 4 rounds of combat.

The Tactical Marine: I've been struggling pretty hard with the Techmarine, so I'll come back to him later. It's not that it's impossible, but the only way I've been able to do it is to build a character that I don't feel would be viable in a normal campaign, and to me that feels like failure. Meanwhile the Tactical Marine is clean, elegant, and simple. So, without further ado, here he is!

Iron Hands Tactical Marine (Bolter Mastery)

WS - BS 75 (5000) Str - T - Agi - Int 70 (5000) Per - WP - Fel -
Skills: n/a
Talents: Mighty Shot (500); Marksman (600); Bolter Drill (1000); Signature Wargear (Master) Master Crafted Storm Bolter (1000);
Wargear: Master Crafted Storm Bolter (0); 1 clip Kraken Rounds (0); Astartes Targeter (25); Motion Predictor (20); Mk VI Corvus Armor with either None Shall Escape His Wrath -or- Helm of Mordicus
Cybernetics: n/a
Distinctions: Mental Ascenscion (600)

Totals: Spent XP: 14,700; Requisition: 45; Required Distinctions: 1; Cybernetics: 0 (but you know he has some, it is Iron Hands after all)

The Battle: The Tactical Marine spends his first turn activating Suffer no Weakness, and using one of his rerolls from Mental Ascenscion to make it based off an int bonus of 14, providing a total of +7 to damage against the Bloodthirster. In following turns, the Tactical Marine goes into Overwatch with his Storm Bolter, and fires whenever the Bloodthirster is outside of cover, using Kraken Rounds. Testing against 140 (Base 80 + 30 for size + 10 for Motion Predictor + 10 for Signature Wargear + 10 for Bolter Mastery), the Tactical Marine has a 60% chance of hitting with 10 shots (60 or less) a 20% chance of hitting with 8 shots, and a 20% chance of hitting with 6 shots, for an average of 8.8 hits.

The Bloodthirster will attempt to dodge, of course, and has a 60% chance of dodging 0 hits, and a 10% chance each of dodging 2, 4, 6, or 8 hits Meaning all told he dodges 2 hits on average. As a result, on average the Tactical Marine hits the Bloodthirster 6.8 times. The Bloodthirster gains no benefit from cover. In addition, the Storm Bolter has a Pen of 8, and is dealing 1d10 + 9 + 7 (Suffer no Weakness) + 2 (Mighty Shot) + 2 (Bolter Mastery) + 2 (Master Crafted) = 1d10+22 damage, which is reduced by the remaining armor and toughness by 23 points. A shot with Tearing deals on average 8.309 damage after accounting for Righteous Fury (you'll have to trust me on that, the math is too complicated to demonstrate quickly), but since on the 1% chance both die results are a 1 he does 0 damage, the average damage per hit ends up being 8.299.

Hitting 6.8 times, that is on average 56.4332 damage per round. After adding in the 2.5 from Warp Instability, it is 58.9332. In 4 rounds the Bloodthirster falls, regardless of if he's flying or running from cover to cover. Since the shooting starts around when he hits the 400 meter mark, he has time to close to around 160 meters away before he falls.

The Librarian. Note that I really should have picked this one first, apparently. I should have known better than to expect a Librarian to not automatically be the best at any task, even this one.

Dark Angel Librarian

WS - BS - Str - T - Agi - Per - WP 60 (700 XP) Fel -

Skills: n/a

Talents: Warp Conduit (800), Psy Rating 10 (9200), Favored by the Warp (800), Rite of Sanctioning (400)

Psychic powers: Hellfire (1000)

Deeds: n/a

Distinctions: n/a

Wargear: n/a

Totals: Spent XP: 12,900; Requisition Used: 0, Distinctions needed: 0;

The Battle: It does not matter who goes first. On every one of his turns, the Librarian simply pushes Hellfire (resulting in a psy rating of 14), and then walks closer to the Bloodthirster. As it affects an area with a radius of 28 meters, it cannot be dodged by the Bloodthirster. Nor is it opposed, nor can it be resisted. There is nothing the Bloodthirster can do about it, and it deals 14d10 damage (average 84), which after accounting for armor and toughness, does 53 damage to the Bloodthirster. It takes only 4 rounds to destroy his foe. With an effective range of 728 meters, the Bloodthirster doesn't even have time to flee.

Note that while pushing, the Librarian would need to roll an 85+ twice in a row to suffer perils (2% chance), and otherwise suffers the psychic phenomena set via Rite of Sanctioning, which is presumably harmless. There is thus no realistic chance anything negative happens to him as a result of this, especially with only 4 rounds of combat.

Collar of khorn negates psionics. (though vortex of doom still work?)

also to the above point of immune stun. Concussion also does knock down.

Collar of khorn negates psionics. (though vortex of doom still work?)

also to the above point of immune stun. Concussion also does knock down.

Very true, but neither in Mark of Xenos, nor in Black Crusade Tome of Blood, do Bloodthirsters have a Collar of Khorne, to the best of my ability to discern.

To the Assault Marine!

Black Templar Assault Marine

WS 75 (3200) Agi 70 (3200), Str 70 (3200), Fellowship 40 (0)

Crushing Blow (600), Slayer of Demons (1000), Signature Wargear (Master) Exceptional Executioner's Axe (1000)

Kill Marine (1000)

Deed: Lone Survivor (100xp) - Hatred (Demons)

Mk VI Corvus Armor; Dilation Field (45), Exceptional Executioner's Axe (0)

1d10+13 pen 8 felling (-17), 1d10+13 + 16 (Str) + 2 (crushing blow)

+2 (slayer of Demons)

Totals: Spent XP: 13,300; Requisition: 45; Distinctions used: 0; Advanced Specialties Used: 1

The Battle: The Assault Marine enters Squad Mode during his first turn. On subsequent turns, he runs towards the Bloodthirster, pacing his movement carefully to where at the end of the Bloodthirster's turn, he will be within 24 meters of the Assault Marine. If necessary, at the appropriate time, he delays his turn to ensure this occurs. Note that the Assault Marine is faster than the Bloodthirster, so he can completely counteract any of the Bloodthirster's own attempts at superior positioning. It does not matter, either, if the Bloodthirster ends closer than 24 meters, as long as he ends more than 10 meters away, so there is significant wiggle room for the Assault Marine as well.

(Example: The Bloodthirster, fearing this marine who has done nothing discernable at this point, for no apparent reason, stops 60 meters shy of the Assault Marine, getting ready to charge the next turn. The Assault Marine moves 20 meters further away. Annoyed, the Bloodthirster moves to 50m away. The Assault Marine moves 25m further away. Accepting that he wants to kill this puny mortal, the Bloodthirster moves his full 60m, ending 15m away from the Assault Marine, and eagerly awaiting the carnage that will begin shortly.)

The Assault Marine then activates the Dilation Field at the end of the round. On the beginning of the next round, the Assault Marine goes first (it is at this point impossible for him to not be first in the initiative order), and makes a half move up to the Bloodthirster. As a free action, he activates Holy Vengeance, and he makes a standard attack.

As the standard attack cannot miss (75 + 10 (slayer of demons) + 10 (Hatred) + 10 (signature Wargear) + 5 (Exceptional Weapon) -10 (Dilation field)), he gains an additional attack with each attack made, up to his Agility Bonus (currently 15). Each of these attacks deals 1d10 + 13 (weapon) + 16 (Strength) + 2 (Crushing Blow) + 2 (Slayer of Demons), has a pen of 8, and ignores 6 points of Toughness, meaning it is reduced by 17.

Each attack does an average of 22 damage, and only the first one can be dodged, so the attacks do 308 damage to the Bloodthirster, quite thoroughly killing it.

These are awesome if slightly scary.

Each shot, having the proven (3) quality and automatically confirming Righteous Fury, deals an average of 6.4 (from the lasconnon on the devestator

You're math is slightly off. A normal d10 has the results of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 summing to 55 -divided by 10 gives an average of 5.5.

A proven 3 has the results 3,3,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 summing to 58 giving the average of 5.8. Remember the errata changed proven from a reroll.

As for the tearing quality, using the same method, the 100 outcomes sum to 715/100 for an average of 7.15 +5.5/10 +5.5/100 for RF (and we'll truncate there as the odd of hitting a 3 RF make its contribution to average damage neglibile) give you 7.85 not the 8.47 you mentioned.

edit. I ran a monte carlo and am getting 8.31 instead of 8.47 so really close.

Yes, except you forgot the Righteous Fury in there. It's actually 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 16.444(repetend). If it makes you more comfortable with the math, it's similarly 5.8+.58(RF, 5.8*1/10))+.058(2xRF)+.0058(3xRF) etc, I just summed the RF results and added them into the 10, as that's when they occur. 5.8 instead of 5.5 for RF rolls due to proven (3) still applying, to the best of my knowledge, to RF rolls. If you don't believe Proven (3) applies, it's 6.4111(repetend), which still truncates to 6.4, so it's kinda a moot point.

In terms of the tearing math, I highly recommend this website http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php as it can help calculate die roll probabilities with minimal fuss. Your correct summation tells me you can figure it out just fine without this, but this is more so those following along at home can easily keep up.

Basically, what you missed there was that the incidence of RF on the initial die roll is 19/100, not 1/10. 6.1 repetend (the sum of RF in this case) *.19 is 1.159, +7.15 (the correct average, absolutely) is 8.309. My math was off, definitely. I think I had been applying tearing probabilities to future RF rolls as well, which is absolutely incorrect, or something silly like that. I don't think the .17 I was off impacts anything, but I'll go back and correct those numbers.

Edit: They have been corrected! Thankfully didn't impact anything big picture with that scenario, but it actually makes me feel good to have had someone double check my math. Thanks!

This post is both monstrous AND totally unsuprising...thank you Jerrion Quinn

Glad to have been of service. Thanks for the link.

I feel like these are the kinds of discussions that Tech Marines have before giving their analysis of the applicability of different weapon loadouts of Devestators and Vehicles to the Company Cpt.

There are a lot of things you are NOT taking into consideration for One on One fights.

1: The librarian is at -40 WP. The Bloodthirster has Fear(4), space marines do not roll on fear charts but they suffer -10 per fear level when not in squad mode if they would be affected by a character's fear.

2: The Bloodthirster gains +10 to his Agi test to avoid ALL damage from the psychic power from resistance. (Akin to rules for bonuses for avoiding normal flame weapons.)

3: As a flyer, the Daemon may "run" for 60.

4: If the Bloodthirster is alone, so is the Astartes: no Squad Mode. If your kill-team is there, the Bloodthirster's army is there.

5: Suffer no Weakness specifies: unmodified Intelligence Bonus

6: Realistically in game, if a Bloodthirster is there, it's either from a psyker blowing himself up (and therefore close enough to engage you very easily), or there is a massive warp invasion and the daemon has no need for Warp Instability tests.

7: All Astartes in Solo Mode are at -40 WP when 'fighting' the daemon, and are -65 WP when within 25m.

8: Bloodthirsters come with an enterauge.

9: Bloodthirsters can parry (Actually, EVERYONE can parry).

12: ALL attacks CAN miss. 96+ = FAIL.

13: A daemon didn't become a Bloodthirster by standing out in the open and letting an enemy cast psychic powers at it from 500 meters away.

1) When pushing (+14) the psyker has +70 to his focus power tests from his psy rating. With a -40 from the fear rating (it's to willpower tests, not to willpower, there's a difference) his focus power tests need to result in anything under a 90. If it makes you feel better, he can take a psychic hood, or another rank in willpower advances (there's no reason he wouldn't have maxed it by then, but honestly he doesn't need it), but for my feelings on it, see 12

2) Actually, in terms of the rules for avoiding area of effects, "when dodging an area effect weapon (such as a flamer), a successful dodge test moves the character right to the edge of the area of effect, as long as it is no further away than the character's agility bonus in meters. If the character would need to move further than this to avoid the attack, the dodge test automatically fails". It affects an area of a 28 meter radius. His agility modifier is 5. Thus why the attempt automatically fails. He could have a +50, and thus (almost) automatically succeed on his dodge, it would still automatically fail.

3) I've actually taken that into account in every single one of my scenarios, such as "Alternately, the Bloodthirster can fly each turn, moving 60 meters with his run action instead of 48, but losing the benefit of cover", or "In 4 rounds the Bloodthirster falls, regardless of if he's flying or running from cover to cover. Since the shooting starts around when he hits the 400 meter mark, he has time to close to around 160 meters away before he falls." (240 divided by 4 being 60), etc.

4) The only character who has used squad mode is a killmarine, for whom "This unique ability allows the Killmarine to enter Squad Mode (see page 219 in the DEATHWATCH Rulebook) without the support of another Battle-Brother.". Before you say I didn't take into account the cohesion damage caused by the creature with the fear rating, I did, he starts with 6 cohesion points, so even if he loses 4 (which he would) from fear, he has the two he needs to activate his one ability.

5) Sure does. And mental ascension specifies that "Alternatively, he may use a re-roll to instead double a Characteristic Bonus based on one of these three Characteristics for the purposes of a single test or effect", so for the purpose of this single test or effect, his unmodified intelligence bonus *is* 14, which divided by 2 is 7. If you disagree, feel free to get a rules clarification ;-)

6) And yet, the rules don't specify that.

7) Whom, other than the psyker, has made willpower tests? How is that relevant? And again, it's -40 or -65 to the *test*, there is a difference, it's important.

8) Yep, but the scenario posited specified that it was alone.

9) Yep, only once per turn. I actually gave the Bloodthirster a free success on his reaction being used to parry the first attack from the Black Templar, but he only has one reaction per round, so the other 14 hit. Holy Vengeance actually specifies that it takes place whether or not the damage is inflicted.

12(where are 10 and 11?)) Sure can. Having a 5% chance of failure, combined with having a pool of fate points to reroll those failures (even if you only give them one) leaves them a .25% chance of actually failing. The chance of multiple failures occurring during the time period we're involved with is similarly statistically negligible. Personally, I was giving them the same number as the Bloodthirster, at 3, but honestly again it just hasn't even been worth mentioning. If any damage figures I've used (final, average damage) multiplied by the 99.75 chance of success, ends up being inadequate to get the job done, let me know. In terms of the psyker failing his focus tests, a 1% chance of failure (10%*10%) over the course of only 4 tests is similarly statistically irrelevant.

13) True enough, but a) as you specified earlier, the bloodthirster does not necessarily have control over the circumstances of how he is summoned, and b) we've already specified multiple times, we know this is completely useless for any and all considerations, as it would never happen. It's just for fun, try to have fun. This is a game after all.

Edit: Sorry for the delay in getting the Apothecary and Techmarine done, I plan on finishing them sometime before the end of the week.

In the case of the Apothecary, it's *really* tough to get it done with cover unless he's using a lascannon, which as you may have noticed, I'm trying to avoid recycling gear, distinctions, abilities, or methods, which makes his job absurdly tough. I may have to accept defeat and remove the cover from consideration (he is massive, after all, how many rocks twice the height of a land raider do we really have laying around here?!) for the purpose of the Apothecary, in order to avoid recycling.

In the case of the Techmarine, I can do it while running scared, but playing a Techmarine myself, I feel that I owe it to the class to do it "right"- being able to stand there and take the hits, soaking damage as only they can do. Being able to soak 50+ damage in melee (thus no benefit of cover) is quite challenging though, and even then, average damage figures from tearing dice being distributed how they are, the damage per round still ends up creeping up there.

I take herichimos point that the scenario has little relevance in a real Rpg session but I knew that from the outset. Frankly I am amazed that any marines are up to the task. I would say that I would likely homebrew a bloodthirster in a real game following this demonstration to give the PCs a challenge.l

Still off.

2: Targets hit by Hellfire must take agi tests. If they fail, they take damage. If they succeed they don't. Resistance to psychic powers would add to the agility test. Thus the daemon tests on 60 to avoid ALL damage from your psychic power.

4: A killmarine may ONLY use the following Squad Mode abilities when using his Solo Squad Mode special ability: Bolter Assault, Dig In, Fire for Effect, Furious Charge, and Regroup.

5: Wrong. Unmodified means NO doubling and NO adding, from any source, function, ability, or talent. That's the definition of unmodifed.

9: There is no way a solo marine can be using Holy Vengance.

10-11: Bloodthirsters are made of chaos baby!

12: Probability is not what actually happens. William M. Briggs has, does, and will continue to attest to that.

13: The likelihood of any daemon being summoned into an open area 700+ meters away from a character munchkined specifically to beat him is absurd. Engineering situations where you will obviously win (such as saying the character won't simply fly away) does not make for an appropriate consideration of a situation. In each of these cases the marine has EVERY advantage available (and some not available), the daemon is put in the most disadvantaged of positions. It is only fair to consider it the other way around, with the daemon having all the advantages and the marine having none.