I gotta say. I really love the logical and thoughtful responses on this thread. Thanks for being awesome, people.

I've got a ton of things I wanted to respond to.

This is where you contact you TO before the tourney. Confirm is he going to be strict or not. Reason I say this is cause it would suck not to use something that you would want to use cause you haven't bought it yet and then see someone get away with it because the TO thinks it is ok.

That said I prefer strict, that way you don't have the Altered text issues.

You know, I was gonna say I wouldn't care (I don't see why someone with more money is entitled either to more fun or to a better chance of winning the event), but you make a good point. If some people have avoided using things they don't own and others haven't then that isn't fair. Mind you, it's not fair when someone without the disposable income I have has fewer toys than me either.

I think this is a big thing. People who are interested i this type of hobby tend to come from the at least middle class group. Some players will just be poor. And that's sad. I do want them to have just as good of a time.

Also, the majority of the demographic of this game is older (OT enthusiasts), white, male, and American/Western. This demographic tends to have stable jobs and not too much of a problem finding something. (tends).

There's enough problems being poor that I don't want them to worry about spending hard earned income (because, honestly, at minimum wage, that is a lot more hard work than a decent salary) to play a game.

I would just say, that we should try and do our best to help out by lending cards to friends and things.

Define shape? Is it profile? Top down? The model itself was modified, but it "kept it's arms and leg inside the vehicle at all times" so it could go either way

Exactly. Hell, in the last tourney I played one of the guys I played against played most of the game without the model 'cause it was getting in the way.

As long as the base is there and proper, I personally wouldn't care if he had a rubber octopus on a peg and said that Vuffi Raa was attacking me.

The more customized ships, the better.

This is absolutely golden. I'm gonna that one day.

Also, props to you for playing the game without the model too and getting down to business.

I'll point out that the individual didn't own the original cards.

I hate that this sort of thing bothers me. I'm just torn. because I for one, was running 3x Black Squadron with Predator, and a 4th Black Squadron with Outmaneuver. I WOULD have run 4x Predator, but I only own 3 predators and not really willing to buy another defender just for that upgrade. Hell, I don't like the Defender at ALL, the ONLY reason I bought the 3 that I did, was simply for the upgrade cards. So from THAT perspective, it annoys me that someone else can just up and print his own cards for free and use them in the same tournaments as me.

However, I also feel like a ****** for thinking seriously about trying to get this guy disqualified simply because he doesn't have enough money. I mean, he fielded MANY of his own cards. I think he only printed 4 homemade cards. The guy is TRYING to actually pay for the game, I can tell because about once a month I see him actually buy a ship.... so I dunno. I think I'm just gonna let him play and deal with it.

The ONLY time I'll complain out loud if if he prints stuff from future waves that nobody else has access to yet. (Which actually happened one time and I called him out on it).

A lot of people nowadays have a sense of entitlement about entertainment products, and it's wrong and it's unethical.

If you want a card, or a ship, or a CD, or a TV show, or a movie; GO BUY IT.

Fancy a band? Don't steal their hard work, buy it.

Want to keep enjoying this fantastic game we play? Don't print off cards from the internet, buy them.

Stealing movies and television shows is wrong. Stealing cards is wrong too.

The concept is so so simple, but a lot of foolish people nowadays believe that if something's easy (i.e. stealing something without having to physically shoplift it), it's not wrong. It's just another way our society's pretty dumb. Don't contribute to the stupidity, buy your entertainment media!

I really really really agree with this also. To a certain extent.

If its casual fun, I don't think its really a big deal. Good artist innovate, great artists steal. - Stravinsky.

--

Personally, I'm a music composer and I was hoping to write for video games and film.

Part of the unerring stress of being a musician is simply making ends meet. It's so difficult with today's value of music that its virtually impossible. If you want some first hand, graphic opinions of artist and musicians, simply go to Humans of New York and check out the various quotes in there.

Here's two paraphrased:

When bankers meet for dinner, they talk about art. When artists meet for dinner, they talk about money.

My father seemed to have the right idea about art. He had this boat he was always slowly working on. When he had some spare time, he'd polish off the next little bit, and go back to his life. I think he had it right: He had disengaged the enjoyment of the art from the need to finish it (to pay for his meals/housing).

Everyone in this modern age thinks its completely fine to simply download every song that they want. Its complete and utter selfishness. Complete and total. These people usually have no concept of how much effort and literal money goes into making that sound file.

They also tend to have no real obligation to the concept of property. You see this attempt at fixing income disparities allowing for entertainment a lot with social justice people. They're so concerned with equalizing and protecting their rights that they have no clue that they don't care at ALL about anyone elses' rights (Even though most musicians fall under the very people they're trying to protect). They also tend to have very little understanding of how government works.

Our US Constitution was literally created to stop most of the branches of government from falling under the control of the people and the poorer group, as they tend to act within their own self-interest to a high extent. See Federalist Papers.

My personal opinion is that we should look to restructure our society to value post-religious moral and ethics more. Downplay the concept of "me/ego" "have it your way" "my personal etc etc".

This, along with better copyright infringement enforcement, could bring about a shift in tendency to make things less easy to get away with. Not impossible. That's a bad idea. That's the real prohibition argument. Just hinder.

If its all in casual fun, I don't see why you can't print some cards. Or even pretend you have a ship you don't have. Heck, I practice anti-falcon with a shuttle model.

Same thing for music in my opinion. Sure, download a song or a movie once in a while. When you have the money, and you like something enough. Make a purchase. Go for purchases you can see being useful in some way. For example I collect movies in physical form and then show them off in my guest room. They start conversation. They show what kind of person I am. (Apparently I like Studio Ghibli a lot). They're movies I would watch many times. Basically, they're purchases like cars. Part of it is for giving off an ideal persona.

Compared to some rule sets of other games, x-wing is quite simple.

I have no problems with the rules as they are and I don't need to re-interpret them either, and I fail to see why people have to reinterpret the rules, have they not read and understood them? They are quite clear on how to play and what to do when playing in tournaments.

I also have no problem with printed cards in casual games, so long as they are exactly the same as the originals. It doesn't hurt to check.

I also have no problems lending my cards to players for tournaments, so long as they give them back in the same condition they went out in (mine also have all yellow edges to help me identify them (legal)). I have done so for a player from here, he owned the ships he needed, but didn't have the cards he needed, as he hadn't yet purchased the ships which had the cards he required. I would have played as well, but work comes first. He finished up just outside the top eight here, and I got my cards back. no worries.

I used to do a lot of work writing contracts and policies. When writing policies you have to be very precise. When writing an exception to a specific condition/clause your wording has to be very precise. With this in mind, it is easier for everybody if there are fewer exceptions. Therefore, my view would be:

Home: Determined by players. A printout of your list builder may suffice.

Club: Determined by players.

Tournament: Legitimate cards only. No exceptions.

I saw a comment regarding the player possibly lacking the funds to purchase the cards. Tough. I want to be a Nascar driver .. should I be surprised when I turn up to Daytona with my Toyota Prius and am not allowed to race?

People who are interested i this type of hobby tend to come from the at least middle class group. Some players will just be poor. And that's sad. I do want them to have just as good of a time.

Also, the majority of the demographic of this game is older (OT enthusiasts), white, male, and American/Western.

So we're predominantly middle class, white, male westerners. Dunno why, but I find that idea kinda uncool (not doubting it, mind you). Might be partly because cos I'm adding "fat" and "bearded" into the description subconsciously. Oh well.

Substitute ships though, I'm not happy about them. I'm not saying I'd make a fuss, but part of the fun for me is seeing the cool ships on the table - when people use horrible Micro Machine models for example, it's a big turn off.

Couldn't care less so long as the text was accurate.

But then you have to check each card to make sure it's accurate, and so will everyone else who plays that person.

Which wouldn't take a huge amount of time. I'm pretty easy about this sorta thing.

I'd be okay with things. I run legit myself... but it's kind of ridiculous that you need to buy multiple Slave's in order to get stealth devices and whatnot. X-Wing is supposed to be about flying skills, etc... not how much money you have. FFG really needs to start selling packs of cards that you can buy to fill out your fleet, even though it isn't in their best interest. That being said, I'll contradict myself by saying that I want the player to at least have real ships. I don't want them sticking a piece of gum on a flight peg and saying it's a Tie Fighter. I want my game to look like X-Wing, not Gum-Wing.

If you don't want to buy multiple Slave 1's, don't run a list that needs Stealth device. It's not a hard concept, and in no way stops you from

a) being able to play

b) being able to be competitive.

I personally own 3 shuttles. Why? Because I wanted to run 3x B-Wings w/ Adv Sensors.

If I was unwilling/unable to buy the shuttles, I would have to have run another list - which still has every chance of being competitive.

There is no entitlement in this game. It is pay to play - much less so than every competitive miniatures game I can think of, but it is paying for entertainment. It is not your right to have access to everything.

In response to the OP, I would report it to the TO and not give it a second thought. They are cheating, and that is affecting my experience at the tournament.

In response to Punning Pundit - I have absolutely no quandry about someone printing a card with a FAQ/Errata correction, as long as:

a) the original card is in the sleeve underneath

b) I can match the errata'd card to the latest errata (which every tournament player should have in front of them.)

Well said.

I'd be okay with things. I run legit myself... but it's kind of ridiculous that you need to buy multiple Slave's in order to get stealth devices and whatnot. X-Wing is supposed to be about flying skills, etc... not how much money you have. FFG really needs to start selling packs of cards that you can buy to fill out your fleet, even though it isn't in their best interest. That being said, I'll contradict myself by saying that I want the player to at least have real ships. I don't want them sticking a piece of gum on a flight peg and saying it's a Tie Fighter. I want my game to look like X-Wing, not Gum-Wing.

If you don't want to buy multiple Slave 1's, don't run a list that needs Stealth device. It's not a hard concept, and in no way stops you from

a) being able to play

b) being able to be competitive.

I personally own 3 shuttles. Why? Because I wanted to run 3x B-Wings w/ Adv Sensors.

If I was unwilling/unable to buy the shuttles, I would have to have run another list - which still has every chance of being competitive.

There is no entitlement in this game. It is pay to play - much less so than every competitive miniatures game I can think of, but it is paying for entertainment. It is not your right to have access to everything.

In response to the OP, I would report it to the TO and not give it a second thought. They are cheating, and that is affecting my experience at the tournament.

In response to Punning Pundit - I have absolutely no quandry about someone printing a card with a FAQ/Errata correction, as long as:

a) the original card is in the sleeve underneath

b) I can match the errata'd card to the latest errata (which every tournament player should have in front of them.)

Well said.

Agree, well said indeed.

(That said, kids and young adults might not be able to afford everything us old-timers can... I wouldn't want someone to not play 'cause they had to eat... But then again - Borrow real cards).

This may not be "fair" but it is how life really is. Being poor sucks and that's just how it is, but I'd also say that most of us here, if we knew someone who wanted to play in a tournament at the LGS but didn't have enough or even any ships, we'd loan ours to them so they could play. Hell I myself have enough I could almost run a 8 person tournament with nothing but my own ships.

But on the other hand, there's nothing wrong about 'living within your means' and building lists based on what you have, and not what you want or what the latest netdeck is.

Which wouldn't take a huge amount of time.

Actually it could, depending on if you have the original cards with you, or they do. Or you have some way of looking them up...

But even then, that's not really the point, it's time you shouldn't have to spend checking their cars, because they are supposed to have the original cards, not homemade ones. At no point do I consider it ok to break the rules, as long as it doesn't inconvenience me too much.

So.. 2 pages later...

Where are those card artworks avail from for DL?

I don't think they are. They were custom-printed cards offered as prize support for some tournaments. More info here:

http://kesselrun.byethost12.com/

I'd be okay with things. I run legit myself... but it's kind of ridiculous that you need to buy multiple Slave's in order to get stealth devices and whatnot. X-Wing is supposed to be about flying skills, etc... not how much money you have. FFG really needs to start selling packs of cards that you can buy to fill out your fleet, even though it isn't in their best interest. That being said, I'll contradict myself by saying that I want the player to at least have real ships. I don't want them sticking a piece of gum on a flight peg and saying it's a Tie Fighter. I want my game to look like X-Wing, not Gum-Wing.

If you don't want to buy multiple Slave 1's, don't run a list that needs Stealth device. It's not a hard concept, and in no way stops you from

a) being able to play

b) being able to be competitive.

I personally own 3 shuttles. Why? Because I wanted to run 3x B-Wings w/ Adv Sensors.

If I was unwilling/unable to buy the shuttles, I would have to have run another list - which still has every chance of being competitive.

There is no entitlement in this game. It is pay to play - much less so than every competitive miniatures game I can think of, but it is paying for entertainment. It is not your right to have access to everything.

I agree with you up to a point, but your access to cards does have an effect on your ability to be competitive. Yeah, I guess that if you are an ace pilot and your dice are rolling hot then you can be competitive, but there is often an established meta in stores. If you don't have the cards to combat the meta then you will not be competitive. Maybe you were smart enough to make the meta call before a tournament so that you can brew a list that will beat them into a pulp, but... oh too bad... you don't own three shuttles that you never intend to run in order to get the cards. You only own two. I guess you have to run something else.

FFG should just sell cards in separate packs and get rid of this whole discussion.

But wait, that would mean less ship sales. Ah well

Then again, I lent a B-Wing dial to a player and haven't gotten it back yet (both his fault for not giving it back and mine for not remembering until the next day that I'd lent it).

I personally own 3 shuttles. Why? Because I wanted to run 3x B-Wings w/ Adv Sensors.

So just just bought 3 pieces of relatively expensive plastic to get 3 pieces of cheap printed paper?

And you don't think there is something wrong here?

I personally own 3 shuttles. Why? Because I wanted to run 3x B-Wings w/ Adv Sensors.

So just just bought 3 pieces of relatively expensive plastic to get 3 pieces of cheap printed paper?

And you don't think there is something wrong here?

I don't... You don't have to have those cards. Supply/Demand.

He can recoup some of that investment on eBay as well.

I agree with you up to a point, but your access to cards does have an effect on your ability to be competitive.

That is simply untrue. The prevalence of the Tie Swarm proves this. So does many of the other lists out there. You don't need a given card or cards to be competitive.

Lot's of people say they would be cool with someone borrowing cards from another player, but that's not really a whole lot different.

Two major differences. One, that person is now playing by the rules. Two there's no questions about if the card has the correct wording or not.

But I agree with your analogy about bumming smokes, if someone wants to play in those kinds of events, they should be willing to pay the price for doing so. If they can't or won't, then there's nothing with playing casual games only.

I don't... You don't have to have those cards. Supply/Demand.

He can recoup some of that investment on eBay as well.

It's not supply/demand. Supply is basically unlimited.

It's just FFG's tournament rules that favor people that are willing to spend more money.

This amount of money is fortunately limited by the size of the fleet you can actually field.

And being able to recoup your money on ebay is a bogus argument, epecially if you factor in that people won't pay full price for an incomplete product, and they will have to pay for shipping as well.

As an aside, FFG continues to reprint cards periodically: Stealth device, for example, will be in the Scyk pack:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/news/scum-and-villainy/M3-A-product-shot.png

As an aside, FFG continues to reprint cards periodically: Stealth device, for example, will be in the Scyk pack:

Advanced Senors were in the E-Wing pack, Push the Limit was in Imperial Aces, so yeah they're doing something to get the cards out to people in less expensive expansion packs and in other factions.

As an aside, FFG continues to reprint cards periodically: Stealth device, for example, will be in the Scyk pack:

Advanced Senors were in the E-Wing pack, Push the Limit was in Imperial Aces, so yeah they're doing something to get the cards out to people in less expensive expansion packs and in other factions.

I appreciate this, greatly. From a business standpoint, they have no need to do this. Yet, we have multiple examples of new ways to get cards that were "expensive" to get in the past. The cost of Advanced Sensors is now half what it was before.

The cost of Advanced Sensors is now half what it was before.

It is, and it's in a Rebel ship, much like how they included two PtL's in an Imperial pack.

I'm hoping they release the Pilots that came with the epic ships in another pack. I was excited to play epic for a little bit, but I haven't really heard many positive reviews about the format. Buying those ships just for a few X-Wing pilots is asking a little bit too much.