How come I've never seen anyone try a 6 Headhunter build, carrying 6 cluster missiles?

It would come down a lot to the initial joust, but I mean rolling up to 36 dice on your opponent could be really nasty. Even if they get to shoot first and down 1-2, you still roll 24-30 red dice if you can position correctly.

Maybe a question for a mathwing?

Maybe I just like the idea of cluster missiles too much

Has anyone tried something like this?

While a cool idea, I'm not so certain it will work out as intended. To get all those Zeds and clusters you've got to sacrifice PS, meaning that you might not get a target lock, much less fire, before at least some of them are shot down first.

36 dice sounds like a lot, but it also depends on a couple of other things.

For one, it's 36 dice over 12 attacks. Each time you attack, the other guy rolls defense dice, so depending on the agility of your opponent, it could be 36 vs 36, or 24, or 12 defense dice. 36 dice in 6 attacks would be a lot better, for an unrealistic example.

I also don't like missiles on low-PS ships because you don't always have the chance to target lock in time to fire off your missiles later that turn. It's not as much of a problem with clusters; presumably you can target lock the previous turn or the enemy will be in range for a target lock in time for you to hit the R1-2 range for the clusters.

First, let's assume none of your Headhunters are shot down before they can fire (this is optimistic). Realistically, they won't have a token available to modify their attacks, so let's assume that all the attack dice are naked. Finally, let's say you're shooting against a target with 1 Agility and infinite hit points.

(Note that the higher your targets' Agility value is, the more sharply the damage drops off; additionally, you're going to have to guess before you attack how many missiles to assign to each target. Under real conditions, you don't want to plan on just unloading your missiles all on the same ship.)

So given all of that, the mode of the total damage dealt--the result that is most likely to occur most often--is 14, and the median is also 14. (If your target has 2 Agility, the mode is 10 and the median is 11; if your target has 3 Agility, the mode and median drop to 8.)

Of course there's a lot of possible variance; you could do more damage than that. But given the fact that we didn't assume any Z-95s with unfired missiles, and we assumed none of that damage was wasted, I think it's clear that mass Cluster Missiles as a tactic are at best unreliable, and at worst ineffective.

EDIT: Also worth noting that this is exactly why counting attack dice isn't a very good way to determine a list's offensive power.

I saw lists like this in action on YouTube a while back using a few variations. The one that I thought was interesting was 5 Z-95's with 1 E-Wing (Horn).

The tactic was standard in your face center table control with the swarm, while flanking with the E-Wing. It forces people to split their forces or take the flanking shots from the E-Wing. It seemed pretty effective but he wasn't relying on any missiles.

Its one squad on my to do list.

Yeah, I'm going to run a 6 Z-95 list with engine upgrades on all. One lucky Z will have ion pulse missiles as well. 99 point list.

I plan on tagging a big ship (YT or Firespray) ASAP with the ion pulse missiles and then burning it down with focused fire over the next phase while it's ioned, then breaking formation and scattering.

We will see how it works. The extra HP (4 to 3 over cheap TIES) attracts me to this rebel swarm.

First, let's assume none of your Headhunters are shot down before they can fire (this is optimistic). Realistically, they won't have a token available to modify their attacks, so let's assume that all the attack dice are naked. Finally, let's say you're shooting against a target with 1 Agility and infinite hit points.

(Note that the higher your targets' Agility value is, the more sharply the damage drops off; additionally, you're going to have to guess before you attack how many missiles to assign to each target. Under real conditions, you don't want to plan on just unloading your missiles all on the same ship.)

So given all of that, the mode of the total damage dealt--the result that is most likely to occur most often--is 14, and the median is also 14. (If your target has 2 Agility, the mode is 10 and the median is 11; if your target has 3 Agility, the mode and median drop to 8.)

Of course there's a lot of possible variance; you could do more damage than that. But given the fact that we didn't assume any Z-95s with unfired missiles, and we assumed none of that damage was wasted, I think it's clear that mass Cluster Missiles as a tactic are at best unreliable, and at worst ineffective.

EDIT: Also worth noting that this is exactly why counting attack dice isn't a very good way to determine a list's offensive power.

We can always count on Vorpal to answer mathwing questions

But with that info, the main goal of the build doesn't seem THAT far off... to drop the one heavy-hitter (or point-heavy ship) in the list asap. But the original Howl swarm may still be more effective at that.

If you really love me Vorpal, you could explain the avg. hits of a Tie Swarm with Howl (Assuming Focus and 1 re-roll)

Yeah, I never liked the whole "total attack dice" as a gauge for anything. Tie Fighter has the same 3 agility that he can roll at eight 2 dice attacks. That's not 16 to 3, it's 2 to 3 eight times. It's just not the same.

Fantastic idea.........with Carlist Rieekan.

in an epic game! Think about it.

Just remember that you need to fly well. Dice are nice but ships don't fly themselves.

Yeah, I'm going to run a 6 Z-95 list with engine upgrades on all. One lucky Z will have ion pulse missiles as well. 99 point list.

I plan on tagging a big ship (YT or Firespray) ASAP with the ion pulse missiles and then burning it down with focused fire over the next phase while it's ioned, then breaking formation and scattering.

I'm not sure the pilot of your ion pulse missile carrier would agree with him being called 'lucky'. Giving him that missile all but guarantees he dies first. Quite possibly before he gets his shot off. Unless he's Blount shooting at PS6, I'd put money on him getting shot down before he gets the missile off... and even Blount can have a hard time delivering his missile before death comes for him.

Engine upgrade Zs is something I hadn't thought of. I'm a little skeptical of its potential, but you at least get points for creativity there!

I tried the original posters build twice, Blount with 5 z's, they had clusters, and i just couldnt make it work. Maybe it was the dice, maybe it was being outplayed, but i was beat so soundly i just went back to my tie swarm.

Bonus the list i was against was a falcon and b wings, so clusters should have been amazing vs ships with 1 defence

...I also don't like missiles on low-PS ships because you don't always have the chance to target lock in time to fire off your missiles later that turn...

Funny thing is that I intentionally put my Torpedoes on Low PS so I can have them shoot after I knocked down the shields of my targets.

...I also don't like missiles on low-PS ships because you don't always have the chance to target lock in time to fire off your missiles later that turn...

Funny thing is that I intentionally put my Torpedoes on Low PS so I can have them shoot after I knocked down the shields of my targets.

It can work if you have some mechanism in place to circumvent the target locking problem. Anything that lets you take actions later in the movement phase or gives you free target locks works. Dutch is a good example, and Cracken would work great in this regard. It also helps if you are durable enough to take a few hits and still deliver the missile, or if there are other high-threat targets.

It just seems like a bad idea to have the only missile in your list on one low PS ship that also happens to be pretty fragile.

Perhaps it would be better to fly 5 Bandits with Proton Rockets + Biggs. No need for target locks. Focused 4 die attacks at range 1 against any target you choose. And Biggs helps them survive the initial salvo to get that shot off.

Or fly 6 Talas with proton rockets and give 4 of them Munitions Failsafe.

Yeah, I'm going to run a 6 Z-95 list with engine upgrades on all. One lucky Z will have ion pulse missiles as well. 99 point list.

I plan on tagging a big ship (YT or Firespray) ASAP with the ion pulse missiles and then burning it down with focused fire over the next phase while it's ioned, then breaking formation and scattering.

I'm not sure the pilot of your ion pulse missile carrier would agree with him being called 'lucky'. Giving him that missile all but guarantees he dies first. Quite possibly before he gets his shot off. Unless he's Blount shooting at PS6, I'd put money on him getting shot down before he gets the missile off... and even Blount can have a hard time delivering his missile before death comes for him.

Engine upgrade Zs is something I hadn't thought of. I'm a little skeptical of its potential, but you at least get points for creativity there!

Haha.

Two things:

1. Lucky was sarcastic. He will be the target, but not a huge loss if he does indeed go down first.

2. Engine upgrades will allow them to run and scatter like mice when the lights come on, not to mention having the boosts lets them rejoin a lot of formations after the initial scatter.

I'm running it tomorrow. I will let you know.

I love the idea, did you test in a game???, it's sound great and could devast an enemy squad, greettings.