I like some of these ideas, but have no clue where to start to attempt an on table test!

If somebody would write out some possible combinations to actually test, Id gladly field some for playtesting!

What if you just played it with the interceptor dial? It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

NA. The TIE Advanced is overcosted by 4 points. Way too large of a deficit to make up with merely adding a couple greens onto whites, and adding hard 1 turns.

I do not buy your 4 points. Not at all.

It is what it is.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/

• The stat line value of 2/3/3/2 is worth almost exactly 16 points at PS1.
• That's 17 points at PS2.
• 21 points (current cost) - 17 points = 4 points
• The rest of the TIE Advanced's capabilities are a complete wash compared to the standard TIE Fighter, so the above math holds for total ship value.

That puts it at 1 point more than the Bomber

1 point for that agility is a steal.

And that 1 point is exactly where it should be. The 1 point for the extra agility is not a steal. The bomber's stat line of 2/2/6/0 is worth around 14.5 points. The bomber's remaining 0.5 points of relative value is made up by being able to carry an absurd amount of ordnance. Currently ordnance isn't cost effective, but that is a separate issue.

Next.

and point less than the Interceptor.

At most it is 2 points overcosted.

The Interceptor is 18 points at PS1. The TIE Advanced's value is 17 points at PS2, or 16 points at PS1. Adjusted for PS, the TIE Advanced should cost 2 less than the PS1 Alpha Squadron Pilot. I guess you want them to cost the same.

Starting at a baseline of 17 points at PS1, what would you rather have?

• +1 PS, +77% boost to durability, Target Lock. Slightly poorer dial than the TIE Fighter.
• +1 cost, +76% increase to attack power, boost action, nearly the best dial in the game.

+1 PS vs +1 cost is essentially +2 points in favor of the TIE Advanced (16 point PS1 adjusted cost vs 18 points for the TIE Interceptor). The increase in durability vs attack are mathematically a wash, but preference is usually given to attack in this game due to the way that target priority works. So you're paying 2 points for maneuverability (dial + boost) and to shift the buff to attack rather than defense. That's a pretty fair trade.

Now lets use your math, reducing the cost of the TIE Advanced by (at most) 2 points. Starting at a baseline of 18 points at PS1, you now have the choice of:

• +1 cost, +1 PS, +77% boost to durability, Target Lock. Slightly poorer dial than the TIE Fighter.
• +76% increase to attack power, boost action, nearly the best dial in the game.

+1 cost and +1 PS on the Advanced is a wash, so the two ships cost the same (19 points at PS2 vs 18 points at PS1). Nobody is ever going to choose #2. Therefore, the TIE Advanced is still overcosted at 19 points by this metric. You do not even need to do in-depth MathWing, it is clearly obvious that the TIE Advanced is overcosted by more than 2 points using your own comparisons.

I get your calculations

I'm not convinced that you completely do, given that your conclusion of max 2 points overcosted fails a basic sniff-test...

you have to look at theoretical balance points. It isn' meant to be as stats efficient as a tie fighter, it has other factors too.

What "other factors" does the TIE Advanced have? Dial? Nope. Target Lock? Nope, that about cancels with the dial being worse than the standard TIE Fighter. Shields? Nope - that's already included in the MathWing jousting value of 16. That's the whole difference between the TIE Advanced and the TIE Fighter. There are literally zero other factors hiding in the mystical ether, so I don't know what points your are grasping at here...

Agreed on not making the TIE Advanced simply the same stats efficiency as the TIE Fighter. That's why my suggestion is to add a "soft" 2 point buff in the form of a free Fire Control System, as a "sweetener". The stat line efficiency increases from 80.7% as it currently stands (21 points at PS2), to 89.3% (19 points at PS2). That's still lower than the X-wing's stat line efficiency at 91.8%. The TIE Advanced would probably get a slight edge over the X-wing in overall efficiency with the free FCS, but that's not surprising and is actually a good thing, given that generic X-wing pilot usage in wave 4 is nearly extinct with the existence of more efficient ships. (B-wings and Z-95s).

I don't think my initial idea should make Vader too powerful. At two agility he would be easier to hit at at PS 9 he would probably be down his focus for an even easier time.

I like your proposal. I shall try it in our group, see how it pans out.

I will try it also, we can post our findings here and maybe FFG will be inspired!

I will try it also, we can post our findings here and maybe FFG will be inspired!

Please clarify the changes you are trying and I will try them at my end as well! I'd really like to get the Advanced on the table as well!

Thanks!

So the solution to the TIE advanced is to make it an x-wing with a free option to sacrifice firepower for agility on turns when it can't shoot anything?

this would make it quite a bit better than an x-wing as you can barrel roll as well. its points costs are pretty even when compared to an x-wing, for the non-name pilots. so it seems reasonable they should be similar in power. i could see this costing a point for the title card. maybe we will get some new tie-adv. Scum pilots?

Somehow I expected this thread to be a graphic depiction of the effects of an X-Acto knife on the Advanced.

I will try it also, we can post our findings here and maybe FFG will be inspired!

Please clarify the changes you are trying and I will try them at my end as well! I'd really like to get the Advanced on the table as well!

Thanks!

The initial "card text" I had come up with. A Tie Advanced title that allows the advanced to transfer power to weapons increasing them by one at the cost of reducing agility by one for zero cost.

I will try it also, we can post our findings here and maybe FFG will be inspired!

Please clarify the changes you are trying and I will try them at my end as well! I'd really like to get the Advanced on the table as well!

Thanks!

The initial "card text" I had come up with. A Tie Advanced title that allows the advanced to transfer power to weapons increasing them by one at the cost of reducing agility by one for zero cost.

Thanks! We'll give it a go and report back!

Somehow I expected this thread to be a graphic depiction of the effects of an X-Acto knife on the Advanced.

You mean the sword of Exact 0? It cuts them to shreds.

Somehow I expected this thread to be a graphic depiction of the effects of an X-Acto knife on the Advanced.

You mean the sword of Exact 0? It cuts them to shreds.

Everything(that isn't the Advanced) is awesome?

I think Knucklesamwich's psudo-Expose title card idea is best, but I might have it cost 1 point. I think the Advanced is only over costed by 1 point as is, but it doesn't really fill any particular role very well to be worth that cost. This fix would make it a versitlie TIE that seems fitting for an Advanced.

I'd like to see a Chardaan Refit type missile upgrade as well, but I'm not sure on the point reduction yet.

A Systems Upgrade title could be interesting also. Again, it give it the ability to change it's role.

Sounds cool to me, have to see it played a few times.

I think the problem is, as others have said that what makes the 'tie advance' *advanced* in backstory is that it has shields and a hyperdrive.

Clearly the hyperdrive has no real function in the game.

Maybe a game rule that lets ships with hyperdrive drop into the board after the games beginning would help? You'd need to slightly randomise this a bit with say a scatter dice to make it a risk but it could be good for outflanking people...

then again nearly every rebel fighter can 'jump' so it might just end up being silly.

Actually, I really like the idea that the controlling player would have to deploy the ship before the end of their third turn. And since we're talking hyper drive, they should be able to deploy it on any side (same range 1 requirement).

The Bomber performs very well as is.

This may be true in your local meta, but it is not true at the competitive level. Check the latest Regionals results.

This is unfortunately pure speculation.

Right, which is why I compared all the differences of the TIE Advanced to the TIE Fighter, and still couldn't find anything compelling.

Again, missiles may be relevant in your local meta, but they still aren't at the competitive level.

I have MathWinged that as well. It doesn't help enough to make up the difference between being overcosted by 4 points vs. 2.

No, the A-wing performs poorly because it is overcosted by 2 points. This will be fixed with Refit.

You mean like Regionals results? Or are you saying that I haven't playtested my own House rules? I'm confused.

Its prolly the most maneuverable ship in a mobility based game. Not to be rude but maybe Vader isnt bring played "like he should". Ergo people deem him weak? Just a thought. Ive been under pressure more than once to his 2 actions....

Its prolly the most maneuverable ship in a mobility based game. Not to be rude but maybe Vader isnt bring played "like he should". Ergo people deem him weak? Just a thought. Ive been under pressure more than once to his 2 actions....

It's not at all the most maneuverable ship--at least not without a bunch of upgrades added to a ship that already has terrible offensive efficiency.

Its prolly the most maneuverable ship in a mobility based game. Not to be rude but maybe Vader isnt bring played "like he should". Ergo people deem him weak? Just a thought. Ive been under pressure more than once to his 2 actions....

Vader was popular during wave 1 when the meta was less, well, competitive, and there were fewer ships to choose from.

He doesn't get taken now though. The Top Tier players are much smarter than me. I'll just point at the Regionals / Nationals results and let them speak for themselves.

Vader doesn't get used, and he has one of the top 5 pilot abilities in the game.

NO.

I've had it up to here with Jedi/Sith crap. We don't need that garbage polluting X-Wing.

Peace Brigade? Stop trying to make Force users not happen, it's not going to happen

Its prolly the most maneuverable ship in a mobility based game. Not to be rude but maybe Vader isnt bring played "like he should". Ergo people deem him weak? Just a thought. Ive been under pressure more than once to his 2 actions....

Vader was popular during wave 1 when the meta was less, well, competitive, and there were fewer ships to choose from.

He doesn't get taken now though. The Top Tier players are much smarter than me. I'll just point at the Regionals / Nationals results and let them speak for themselves.

Vader doesn't get used, and he has one of the top 5 pilot abilities in the game.

Its prolly the most maneuverable ship in a mobility based game. Not to be rude but maybe Vader isnt bring played "like he should". Ergo people deem him weak? Just a thought. Ive been under pressure more than once to his 2 actions....

Vader was popular during wave 1 when the meta was less, well, competitive, and there were fewer ships to choose from.

He doesn't get taken now though. The Top Tier players are much smarter than me. I'll just point at the Regionals / Nationals results and let them speak for themselves.

Vader doesn't get used, and he has one of the top 5 pilot abilities in the game.

Him not being used - is that due to weakness or the new toys simply being more fun and interesting? Ie the fact that he isnt used may not only be due to him being overcosted. Maybe people are more fascinated by the latest waves? Which is fair

Queations is:

Him not being used - is that due to weakness or the new toys simply being more fun and interesting? Ie the fact that he isnt used may not only be due to him being overcosted. Maybe people are more fascinated by the latest waves? Which is fair

5 of the top 7 most successfully used pilots in wave 4 Regionals are from waves 1 and 2, so no, it's not the new shiny.

Its all a role issue, same with bombers, both are ment as ordnance platforms, but ordnance is weak and unreliable so it's rarely used. The Bomber is at least a cheap tanky dogfighter that can swarm, or a bomb carrier, but the Advanced don't fit either of those roles. So what's the point in using it if its main attack is weak, its missles aren't worth using, and it's cost too high to swarm?

Interesting - maybe people prefer pilots that synergize with other ships than a vader that is a solitary character?

Vader with outmaneuver is quite effective but gain the cost is huge for a ship that doesn't always get to use that ability. The problem I see is that the rebels have the lions share of synergistic abilities that would greatly help the tie advanced by giving them focus and TL together. Maybe fleet officer will help but that has a downside where the rebels abilities do not.

MajorJuggler is right, here: the Advanced has a serious problem (although I don't think it's precisely a cost problem), and it's not just that people are uninterested in Vader.

You can try this experiment at your own table: put Vader in an Interceptor, and see what happens. His pilot ability is one of the best in the game. Similarly, put Maarek Stele + Marksmanship in a Firespray. They both have quite effective abilities, so that's not the problem. Now try running a pair of Tempest Squadron Pilots in a list. No one would tell you that running a pair of Rookies would cripple your list, and those are the same age game-wise. See how well you do over the course of a couple of games.

The problem isn't a novelty effect; I think it's important to consider what's new and shiny when you look at the metagame as a while, but as MJ says there are other Wave 1 ships and pilots who are just fine. The problem isn't a faction effect, since the Empire isn't particularly more difficult than the Rebels. The problem isn't a structural effect, because it's not as if there's another ship in the low 20s taking up points in Imperial lists.

The problem is that the Advanced isn't good enough for what it costs you to run it.

MajorJuggler is right, here: the Advanced has a serious problem (although I don't think it's precisely a cost problem), and it's not just that people are uninterested in Vader.

Yeah, it's definitely not just a points problem, because even if it costed 17 points, people would still be scratching their heads thinking "Why would I take this?". But it would at least be well balanced if they did, and they could beef up the rest of their squad elsewhere.

The 2 point reduction with a built in FCS is a really good idea, because it starts to give the Advanced a more unique role. I can't remember whose idea it was originally to add the FCS, I wish I could claim credit for it, it is a great idea. All I did was figure out what cost reduction it needs on top of the FCS to finally be balanced.