My bet is that a solid Jack List is always good.

As for the woes of new players that is for them to deal with...

I can't go worrying about the whole world, and neither should any of we Veteran Wingers either.

New people who are as serious as we are will figure it out just like we did.

Ironically, looking at the top regionals/nationals results, Whisper is taken WAY more than Echo, most likely because of the higher PS.

Yes, it's very attractive to have Whisper with he ACD and give your opponent very few opportunities to shoot at you uncloaked. I flew a high-PS interceptor list against Whisper a few days ago. I had the initiative choice. I actually chose to cede initiative to my opponent, hoping to get the better of her by getting to react (with boosts and barrel rolls) to her uncloak, while having to eat the fact that she'd get the automatic recloak.

Point of information: If you have the same PS as Whisper and she has initiative, does she recloak before you get to shoot at her? (We played with the assumption of 'yes'.)

New people who are as serious as we are will figure it out just like we did.

Except, of course, that they (we?) won't. If you've played for a long time, you got to learn each and every piece and card piecemeal as it came out, rather than having it all dumped on you at once.

Yes, it's very attractive to have Whisper with he ACD and give your opponent very few opportunities to shoot at you uncloaked. I flew a high-PS interceptor list against Whisper a few days ago. I had the initiative choice. I actually chose to cede initiative to my opponent, hoping to get the better of her by getting to react (with boosts and barrel rolls) to her uncloak, while having to eat the fact that she'd get the automatic recloak.

Point of information: If you have the same PS as Whisper and she has initiative, does she recloak before you get to shoot at her? (We played with the assumption of 'yes'.)

New people who are as serious as we are will figure it out just like we did.

Except, of course, that they (we?) won't. If you've played for a long time, you got to learn each and every piece and card piecemeal as it came out, rather than having it all dumped on you at once.

Yes, it's always a hard choice for the phantom player to choose to shoot first or move last, when initiatives are tied.

Shoot first (move first) - you get to cloak, but you may end up in firing arcs, especially against high PS interceptors/E-Wings

Move last (shoot last) - you get to see where everyone is going and can avoid arcs better, but against turret ships where you have to take a shot at them or if there's no way to take a shot without getting shot back at, you are risking it with just 2 dice.

Whisper is more of a jouster, in the sense that it's more important for Whisper to shoot first, cloak first, and get that focus for defense if she hits. Her ability to get out of arc is not as strong as Echo (and thus more predictable), so moving first is not as bad of a disadvantage.

Echo needs to get out of arcs as much as possible, since she doesn't get the focus token for defense and usually uses it up for offense (which is why FCS is also such an important upgrade for her, so she has a *chance* of keeping the focus for defense). Plus a lot more people shoot before her with high PS, so it's better for her to just avoid arcs (and predict where the high PS people will go) and shoot when she can.

Regarding new players, yeah, I've had to process a LOT of data from the Wave 1-3 meta and the crazy Wave 4 tsunami. But I've also been a bit obsessive about the game and read a lot online and do a lot of list theory-ing, so I don't think I'm the "normal" newbie who gets into the game.

With friends who are new, I usually just teach them a few ships and 1-2 upgrades max, and just have them play that a few times before introducing them to more. It seems to work

I have found that it is best to go at your own pace, and not get hung up on trying to keep up...

Focus on what you care about.

New people who are as serious as we are will figure it out just like we did.

Wait, we figured it out?

I have found that it is best to go at your own pace, and not get hung up on trying to keep up...

Focus on what you care about.

Very interesting. I have just realized that I have this habit of refusing to play any of the newest ships at tournaments. I don't know what it is. Maybe I'm just trying to be different. Maybe it's that I don't feel I get enough practice in with them, so I stick with the old stuff. But I haven't won yet, so I think it's going to have to change...

Yea I do hope they slow things down a bit.

This year alone there has been 2 huge ships, 2 aces packs, and 4 (soon to be 6) expansion packs.

I have the transport but have yet to play any epic games with it. Also don't own a shuttle, phantom, ewing, or tantive yet.

Not to mention there are many pilots and upgrades for my existing ships I've never tried.

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

I hadn't dropped any significant cash on gaming stuff for a few years. A couple of Kickstarters here and there have been it. I really don't mind dropping the cash on my fleets. The hope is that, when they're a little bit older, it'll be a bonding opportunity with the kids. Get them into the gaming addiction early. Feed that plastic crack habit.

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

I see. Do you win?

Ack! Listen to me, how rude. I sound like I'm a competitive player, but I'm actually a casual player that pretends (really hard) to be competitive. It's all about having fun (though I admit it's more fun when you're winning or at least have a fighting chance).

I agree, flying what you want is the way to go. As long as you get practice against a variety of squads, you're good to go.

A friend just showed me a pretty good counter to the ever present Han + 3 Z's build, and he's trying to convince me to bring it to GenCon, but he has no idea yet how it will do against swarms, and it sounds like people are gearing up for those again. I think I'd rather fly something I'm comfortable with...but then I'm right back to never playing with the new stuff until it's not new anymore. Decisions, decisions.

@OP: You're right, there's just so much to consider. I think we're going to see a lot of tailored lists, like Hothie's Additional Damage, for example. Or KineticOperator's Rebel Convoy. I think there is a lot to be said for breaking the mold.

Another source of disquiet is the seeming rock<paper<scissors<rock (is there a lizard and Spock in this equation?) of the current state of the game. It seems to me that the Phantom is the particular outlier in that if your list is not prepared for it, you're toast, but if you are prepared for it, the Phantom is toast, but that preparation makes you very vulnerable to non-Phantom lists. Is this disquiet just my own pathology, or is it more widespread?

I feel a *touch* worried about that, as that's very much the direction 'Attack Wing' went, and it's a lot poorer for it.

Running pure-Borg lists, you wipe the floor with anyone not running a Borg list, or other 'hard counter' to your list (triple Vor'Cha with flagship is brutally effective).

On the other hand, running a hard-counter to the Borg list means you are easy to cut up by pretty much anyone else at all...even lists that the Borg would have no problem with (anything emphasizing maneuverability and positioning at all, for example - stuff the Borg just don't care about, but Klingons have a hard time with).

Running a 'jack of all trades' list results in the worst possible outcome - ANY of the above lists can defeat you with ease, then, as they can only be themselves taken down by the specialized counter-build to them, and you aren't bringing it being a generalized list.

That said - my feeling is that FFG does a heck of a lot better job playtesting than WizKids does (understatement of the millennia!), so maybe it won't be as big an issue, here. Maybe. Rock-paper-scissors games are no fun (IMHO).

I was thinking about all this when I was walking the dog tonight.

Are upgrades coming out that will scare players into picking, or avoiding, certain squads at Tournaments just in case they run into something that's the counter? You used to fly a seven TIE swarm around Howlrunner? But now you're worried about Ion Torpedos or being rammed by a Decimator? You used to bring all PS 2 Rebel ships but now Predator has you spooked to do that? Or do you just say darn them all, I'll fly whatever the heck I want!

Personally, I think many lists will become give and take. The experienced top tier players will know, more or less, what they can bring and what they can get away with leaving at home. But it will always be a risk that they'll run into a specific counter. If someone is always chasing the "meta build" and trying to counter it, they themselves may become easy to counter...

I like slightly unpredictable squad builds. For my own FLGS serious games, I still tend to bring whatever I feel like. I won the last store championship (at Wave 3) with just Krassis, Jonus and Howlrunner and specific upgrades. I've had good success so far with the Vessery, OGP and Echo squad. I took apart a Defender and Whisper (and something else) build with Roark, Red Squadron, Dutch and Garven.

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

I see. Do you win?

Ack! Listen to me, how rude. I sound like I'm a competitive player, but I'm actually a casual player that pretends (really hard) to be competitive. It's all about having fun (though I admit it's more fun when you're winning or at least have a fighting chance).

I agree, flying what you want is the way to go. As long as you get practice against a variety of squads, you're good to go.

A friend just showed me a pretty good counter to the ever present Han + 3 Z's build, and he's trying to convince me to bring it to GenCon, but he has no idea yet how it will do against swarms, and it sounds like people are gearing up for those again. I think I'd rather fly something I'm comfortable with...but then I'm right back to never playing with the new stuff until it's not new anymore. Decisions, decisions.

@OP: You're right, there's just so much to consider. I think we're going to see a lot of tailored lists, like Hothie's Additional Damage, for example. Or KineticOperator's Rebel Convoy. I think there is a lot to be said for breaking the mold.

To be honest? I've won exactly one time and I've never actually had a full 3x3 table to play on. Measurements have always been off and well, the issue is, I've barely had any time to play. I have a hard time keeping up due to poor finances and really only having half of wave 3 and still missing a lambda. If I had a better source of income I'd buy up every single mini I saw.

Really just not enough practice. But the one time I was compelled to fly my beloved HWK and a couple of Xs against Two squints, a TIE, and Vader, I did win. I'm sure I can do it again.

Had a few close matches though.

That said - my feeling is that FFG does a heck of a lot better job playtesting than WizKids does (understatement of the millennia!), so maybe it won't be as big an issue, here. Maybe. Rock-paper-scissors games are no fun (IMHO).

Playtesting is good, but I wonder to what degree it really helps. I think their our issue is the meta, which is something that FFG can only attempt to forecast. We're probably seeing all these anti-swarm options because that's what was top of the meta when they were coming out of someone's brain. However, between then and now we have the Phantom Menace and the Falcon Strikes Back, and the meta has wholly changed. The faster they put stuff out, the more the lag-time between conception and release is going to be a killer in terms of their ability to steer the ship.

I agree that Rock<Paper<Scissors is not a healthy place to be, because it puts too much of the outcome of any tournament on the accident of combinations. That's not to say that a really good player couldn't beat me with any type of list combination, but most of us are playing against our peers.

As such, I think FFG would be better off not trying to steer the meta. As brilliant as they doubtlessly are - with all the possible combinations that the game now includes, the meta has become a complex adaptive system, which is not easy to anticipate. Small tweaks is better than overcorrections.

That said, I don't want to be one of the doomsayers. I trust that it will all work itself out, and FFG is not going to screw the pooch.

Personally, I think many lists will become give and take. The experienced top tier players will know, more or less, what they can bring and what they can get away with leaving at home. But it will always be a risk that they'll run into a specific counter. If someone is always chasing the "meta build" and trying to counter it, they themselves may become easy to counter...

You're probably right. Still, if you're building your custom squad, aren't you also thinking ahead about what you're going to do when you face a meta squad? Last week (or the week before, I forget), everybody was talking about the Falcon Strikes Back list. So, I started to put together a swarmy list that could take that out. Well, that list didn't fare too well in the games that I've played. (I forgot that few people in my community play with falcons... duh!)

I do think that it's a good idea to get a good list that you know, and learn to fly it well. I had a bomber squad that has worked reasonably well (but not optimally) for me, and I got away from that thinking I'd have some fun with Interceptors. They are fun, but they die too easily.

To be honest? I've won exactly one time and I've never actually had a full 3x3 table to play on. Measurements have always been off and well, the issue is, I've barely had any time to play. I have a hard time keeping up due to poor finances and really only having half of wave 3 and still missing a lambda. If I had a better source of income I'd buy up every single mini I saw.

Wow, I figured with as much as you post, you'd be doing better. I know the one doesn't necessarily correlate to the other, but would have thought that someone who spends a lot of time thinking about something would get some dividend out of that. But, is your local scene just pretty stiff competition?

Sadly no. It's just... limited. I've literally only ever played against my dad, my little brother, and an old boyfriend.

Little brother once to show him he wasn't ready for the game.
Father thrice and only because I pestered him because he promised, despite his love for Star Wars. And investment in XWMG.
Old boyfriend because we were bored one day.

Don't count the little brother game, that was too easy. Though due to how lackadasical I was, he did kill one TIE. I wasn't even trying.

First game with dad, I flew the X-Wings, he flew the TIEs. Both new, he had a numerical advantage that I had no clue how to counter.

Game after that was a Y and and A VS. a Firespray. Went about as well as you'd expect. Then there was the one game I WAXED him on because I actually knew what I was doing.

Game with my old boyfriend was Four TIEs VS I think 2 Xs and a Y. I ended up losing but I was fairly out of sorts.

I'd love to play more, but I just don't have the chances to do so.

My local scene is basically nonexistent. It's off in a town ~20mi away and I live in a town of bumpkins who think AT&T is telling them the truth when they're told they're getting the fastest internet in the country. Not smart people, who probably think Science Fiction is devil worship or something. Circumstances dictate that I stay here for now, long story.

I'd play this game every **** day given the chance.

Can we just talk about how many evades that Falcon had to roll?

New people who are as serious as we are will figure it out just like we did.

Wait, we figured it out?

I have found that it is best to go at your own pace, and not get hung up on trying to keep up...

Focus on what you care about.

Very interesting. I have just realized that I have this habit of refusing to play any of the newest ships at tournaments. I don't know what it is. Maybe I'm just trying to be different. Maybe it's that I don't feel I get enough practice in with them, so I stick with the old stuff. But I haven't won yet, so I think it's going to have to change...

You WILL figger 'em out Pot-nah!

I'd love to play more, but I just don't have the chances to do so.

****, that sucks dude.

It sound like your only hope is some old guy living out in the countryside who might be in need of an apprentice to help him blow up a space station or something.

I'd love to play more, but I just don't have the chances to do so.

****, that sucks dude.

It sound like your only hope is some old guy living out in the countryside who might be in need of an apprentice to help him blow up a space station or something.

You couldn't be more correct. 'Til I move, I'm outta' luck. Should be early next year.

Of course, knowing my luck this old man would talk about binding and penetrating and power or something, which would likely send me briskly walking out the door.

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

DAT!

Same here... I could give a flippy-do about this meta thing. It is like watching a soap opera. I do however appreciate some of the quality post sharing ideas for how to use all of our ships.

To get back on topic....yes there is too much content too quickly. I'm losing interest because I can't get familiar with all the option and it's becoming too much to process. I adore this game, but I also have to do stuff like eat, pet cats, and acknowledge the presence of non-xwing'ers.

I'm just concerned the current marketing strategy is going to alienate new players, but also burn through content too quickly and reduce the game's life. Then middle of road players, like me, have no opponents

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

DAT!

Same here... I could give a flippy-do about this meta thing. It is like watching a soap opera. I do however appreciate some of the quality post sharing ideas for how to use all of our ships.

Oh yeah, that's always welcome. Metas have always bugged me, it's why I tend to not be able to get into MMOs. "No you do it this way!"

Man I don't care how you want me to fly this strike fighter, I can put a radar on it with a 22km range? This muh'f**kas gon be AWACS.

I'd love to play more, but I just don't have the chances to do so.

****, that sucks dude.

It sound like your only hope is some old guy living out in the countryside who might be in need of an apprentice to help him blow up a space station or something.

You couldn't be more correct. 'Til I move, I'm outta' luck. Should be early next year.

Of course, knowing my luck this old man would talk about binding and penetrating and power or something, which would likely send me briskly walking out the door.

Yeah, because he sounds like he would be more at home in a sex dungeon, reading Marquis de Sade.

I'd love to play more, but I just don't have the chances to do so.

****, that sucks dude.

It sound like your only hope is some old guy living out in the countryside who might be in need of an apprentice to help him blow up a space station or something.

You couldn't be more correct. 'Til I move, I'm outta' luck. Should be early next year.

Of course, knowing my luck this old man would talk about binding and penetrating and power or something, which would likely send me briskly walking out the door.

Yeah, because he sounds like he would be more at home in a sex dungeon, reading Marquis de Sade.

We have mutual thoughts on Obi-Wan's use of penetrate, then.

This is exactly why I ignore the meta and fly whatever the f**k I want.

A counter will come to whatever list I engineer anyway, so I might as well build general purpose lists that don't depend on the meta.

DAT!

Same here... I could give a flippy-do about this meta thing. It is like watching a soap opera. I do however appreciate some of the quality post sharing ideas for how to use all of our ships.

Oh yeah, that's always welcome. Metas have always bugged me, it's why I tend to not be able to get into MMOs. "No you do it this way!"

Man I don't care how you want me to fly this strike fighter, I can put a radar on it with a 22km range? This muh'f**kas gon be AWACS.

Right, share ideas and be cool and all, but do NOT tell me I have got to do a **** thing.

Cause... I don-got-tah!

You don't gotta win either, but some people like doing that.

Having recently just started in the game. Im finding buying a single ship for both sides at a time is working well. With each new purchase Im learning more and more and understanding what upgrade and pilot combinations work well. I think if I had had the chance to buy all the waves at once it would have just been too much to take in and completely overwhelming. Here in the UK our local stockists run short very quickly which is great that this amazing game has such popularity, so Im finding a purchase of a ship for both sides at a time a methodical way and my fleets are starting to take shape very nicely. Im finding this method works in being able to play both sides reasonably well. I can see that getting larger numbers of the same ship such as Tie Fighters and X Wings will be required.

I must say the amount of ships and the cards when you start late as I have in Wave 4 is a bit daunting and the need to catch up is and can be very tempting. Discipline chaps discipline.LOL