Hello all-

The community seems pretty decided on which ships have a “good dial” and which ships do not. It seems universally accepted that the shuttle is like a bus and the A-Wing/Interceptor handle like luxury sports cars (and can be just as finicky and fragile). But what about everything else? How does the dial of a Tie Bomber compare to that of a Y-Wing? How about the comparative maneuverability of an X-Wing and a TIE Fighter?

I decided to find out by creating a system for measuring the effectiveness of each ship’s dial by calculating its capabilities. The first step was figuring out which capabilities I would value (your mileage may certainly very with some of the subjective judgements I made for my objective system).

For simplicity sake, I decided to leave aside factors such as available upgrade slots (advanced sensors on a B-wing can make it a serviceable dogfighter), ship size , or movement-style actions like barrel roll/boost. So for this, I would ONLY look at what was on the dial.

The following is a point system I came up with, below are the maneuvers I'd be looking for, the score they award in my system and a quick justification:

• Turn Maneuvers (total number of turn maneuvers / 2): While the Koiogran Turn is key for any ship, you will likely be using your turn maneuvers even more unless you’re jousting. Being able to zip around asteroids or change your facing to threaten an opponent can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
• Koiogran Maneuvers (+1 point per maneuver): Being able to flip around to face the enemy is one of the key parts of the game. Having only one koiogran on your dial will allow a veteran opponent to block you. On the other hand, multiple distance koiograns will allow you a greater degree of flexibility and allow you to navigate obstacles more easily. Likewise, having no Koiogran maneuvers can be crippling.
• Green Maneuvers: (+1 point per green maneuver): Being able to to have flexibility either coming out of a K-Turn or any number of other situations where you receive stress (flechette torpedoes, shooting at a ship with a rebel captive, the list goes on) is incredibly important. How quickly you can get your ship to be able to take actions/take another red maneuver can be the difference between victory and defeat.
• Non-Koiogran Red Maneuvers: (-1 point per non-koiogran red), It’s one thing to have a red maneuver for a koiogran, where the potential reward of getting the drop on your opponent may outweigh the risk of running without an action for a turn. To take a stress (or alternatively to be prevented from performing this maneuver if you already have a stress) for performing a maneuver like a turn makes the dial worse.
• 1 Forward (1 Point): Being able to slow down and inflict pain on the opponent is a critical part of the game, especially if you find yourself in an advantageous position (like behind the opponent).
• 5 Forward (1 Point): Sometimes your best bet is to just get the hell out of dodge (or cover a long stretch of the game area if you find yourself out of position). They’re also great for setting up alpha strikes early game with missiles or torpedoes, especially if you’re moving second.
• Special Stuff: These items below apply only to one ship each (so far) and are different enough that I feel like they warrant their own look.
• +2 point for a white koiogran: it’s all the reward of a koiogran flip without the risk of a stress token. This is in addition for the point awarded for the Koiogran itself.
• +2 point for a full stop: Anyone who’s flown the shuttle knows how useful this can be. The power is mitigated somewhat by the fact that it’s red, but my system accounts for that elsewhere.

Okay, enough about my methodology. Time for results! Using the scoring outlined above, the results are as follows:

Maneuver Dial Ratings:

So pretty much what we expected at the top and bottom, (the A-Wing beats out the interceptor because of an extra green maneuver).

However there were a few things that surprised me:

• How good the TIE Fighter dial is. Multiple K-Turn options, a wealth of green maneuvers and turn maneuvers make them pretty great. Combine it with a low point cost and you can see why TIE swarm remains a tough opponent to deal with. Even the E-Wing only beats it out by presence of a 1 forward.
• How good the dials on the Firespray and the YT-1300 are. Multiple koiograns, hard turns and no red non-koiograns make them amazing. They’re only really prevented from entering the top tier dials by the comparative lack of green maneuvers. What is even more amazing that these ships don't have to work very hard at all to get someone in their sights (360 turret primary on the YT-1300 and the rear arc on the Firespray). It would take an extremely clever player to stay out of the effective range of either of these ships.
• How close the Z95 is to the X-Wing are in terms of dials. Really the differences are in which maneuvers are green and the distance of the Koiogran. Both of which are situational.
• How god-awful the Defender is, even with my very generous accounting for its white koiogran. For a TIE variant it’s chock full of red maneuvers.

Thoughts? Remember these are just ratings for the maneuver dials. It does not take into account offensive output, action bars, or possible upgrades.

My hope is that the community can use this to help them, guide their choices when selecting a squadron and thinking about upgrades (push the limit on a ship with few green maneuvers is a tougher sell than one with many green maneuvers, for example).

Thoughts? Remember these are just ratings for the maneuver dials. It does not take into account offensive output, action bars, or possible upgrades.

I've thought a lot about the TIE Advanced maneuver dial, and I think your system rates it too highly. Consider that every other ship in the game--so far, at least--has either a 1-straight or a 1-turn. The only ship without either of those options has a severely limited ability to fight at close range.

I'm not sure how you'd revise your system to reflect that, but it might be worth thinking about.

I tried doing something similar here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress

I'm still not sold 100% on all the coefficients, but it seems to work OK. Edit: the standard TIE Fighter is the baseline, so all its values are by definition 0.

I don't really agree with the negative point cost associated with red maneuvers. With that, ships get penalized MORE for having a red maneuver than not having that maneuver at all.

Maybe if you change the reds to a +1 and turn the other maneuvers to a +2 or +3?

Also, I'm guessing you're not counting banks?

I took the liberty of making a version of the list you have in the OP but with R2's movement dial modifications accounted for, ships with it applied will have a * next to them. Also Nien Numb is accounted for the HWK, B-Wing, and YT-1300:

Thoughts? Remember these are just ratings for the maneuver dials. It does not take into account offensive output, action bars, or possible upgrades.

I've thought a lot about the TIE Advanced maneuver dial, and I think your system rates it too highly. Consider that every other ship in the game--so far, at least--has either a 1-straight or a 1-turn. The only ship without either of those options has a severely limited ability to fight at close range.

I'm not sure how you'd revise your system to reflect that, but it might be worth thinking about.

1 banks are the only one maneuvers are the only 1 maneuvers that don't get points awarded, so I feel like my system represents that decently. Points are awarded for turn maneuvers and for 1 forward. The lack of the K-3 and trading in the turn 1s for bank 1s is the only difference between the dials. Hence, a 2 point difference in favor of the fighter, which I feel is fair. Do you feel that the X-Wing has a better dial than the Advanced? Where should the advanced be? In bomber-territory or further down?

I tried doing something similar here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress

Dial

The dial has been broken down into various categories and each category has been given a value. The total dial coefficient is 1 + all the category scores, which are:

Tightest white turn

0: 1 turn

-0.03: red 1 turn, white 2 turn

-0.03: large base ship white 1 turn

-0.04: white 2 turn

-0.05: red 1 turn, red 2 turn, white 3 turn

-0.06: red 2 turn, white 3 turn

-0.06: Large ship base white 2 turn

-0.2: large base 3 red turn

slowest straight (+1 for large ship)

+0.025: 1 forward

0: 2 forward

fastest straight (+1 for large ship)

-0.025: 3 straight, red 4 straight

-0.01: 4 straight

0: 5 straight

K-turns

-0.3: no K-turn

-0.02: 1 red K-turn

0: 2 red K-turns

+0.3: 1 white K-turn

stress clear

-0.06: green on 2 straights

-0.05: green on 4 straights

0: green on 2 straights, 1 bank

+0.01: green on 3 straights, 1 bank

+0.05: green on 3 straights, 1 bank, 1 turn

+0.055: green on 4 straights, 1 bank, 1 turn

specialty

0: none

+0.05: red 0

Resulting dial values

TIE Fighter 1

TIE Advanced 0.94

Firespray 0.94

TIE Interceptor 1.05

TIE Bomber 0.945

Lambda 0.54

TIE Defender 1.19

TIE Phantom 0.99

X-wing 0.955

Y-wing 0.88

A-wing 1.055

YT-1300 0.97

B-wing 0.95

HWK-290 0.66

E-wing 0.995

Z-95 0.955

I'm still not sold 100% on all the coefficients, but it seems to work OK. Edit: the standard TIE Fighter is the baseline, so all its values are by definition 0.

This is pretty **** good. I like the use of one ship as a baseline. Just noting that comparing it to mine, you rate the B-WIng and the Defender higher and the E-Wing lower.

I feel like I may have been a little hard on the defender, but I also don't believe it's the best dial in the game. Do you? I also feel strongly that the E-wing has a better or at least equal dial than the Tie Fighter (1 forward, 5 forward while lacking only a green turn or a 1 turn).

I have mixed feelings about my negative red, positive green system. It may be overly simplistic, but I also feel like the unpredictability you have when you start your turn with a stress by having a lot of green maneuvers is a major advantage, whereas the number of maneuvers taken off the board with a heavy red dial makes a ship predictable.

I don't really agree with the negative point cost associated with red maneuvers. With that, ships get penalized MORE for having a red maneuver than not having that maneuver at all.

Maybe if you change the reds to a +1 and turn the other maneuvers to a +2 or +3?

Also, I'm guessing you're not counting banks?

I had thought about that. My system may be too simplistic. However, generally a generous dial means more generous in terms of green maneuvers and a lack of reds. The only ship where this relationship falls apart is the defender, which has a host of maneuvers to choose from, but also a great deal of red.

However, I am also awarding points for turns, which are the most common red maneuvers that likely wouldn't be present otherwise, so it helps neutralize the effect.

This is pretty **** good. I like the use of one ship as a baseline. Just noting that comparing it to mine, you rate the B-WIng and the Defender higher and the E-Wing lower.

I feel like I may have been a little hard on the defender, but I also don't believe it's the best dial in the game. Do you? I also feel strongly that the E-wing has a better or at least equal dial than the Tie Fighter (1 forward, 5 forward while lacking only a green turn or a 1 turn).

The Defender dial coefficient for the white K-turn is a total crapshoot. No other ship has it, so I don't have a lot of confidence in the number. But the value I choose, I think makes the Defender dial look extremely favorable. Increasing the value any further verges on absurdity. This was all part of a bigger context of trying to value ships appropriately, and the Defender is obviously over costed until considering its dial. Even then it is almost certainly a little over costed.

MJ,

I think your dial value calculation is great, except that you penalize no K-turn too much & reward white K-turn too much. I think both should be in the -0.15 & +0.15 range respectively (although +0.05 for red stop could just be increased to lessen the penalty for no K).

I guess I just don't see the Defender having a better dial than the Interceptor or A-Wing, maybe close to equal, but not better.

Gotta agree, while I like flying the shuttle. its dial is pretty crap.

I don't think the Defender's white K means its better than the interceptor though. But, we have a skewed view of ships because of their typical upgrades. PTL for Ints, etc.

MJ,

I think your dial value calculation is great, except that you penalize no K-turn too much & reward white K-turn too much. I think both should be in the -0.15 & +0.15 range respectively (although +0.05 for red stop could just be increased to lessen the penalty for no K).

I guess I just don't see the Defender having a better dial than the Interceptor or A-Wing, maybe close to equal, but not better.

Bear in mind that having no K-turn is worse on the Shuttle than it is on the HWK, which has a turret. The coefficients above don't take that into consideration. It's hard to come up with dial coefficients when very few ships have that capability (or lack of it).

• Shuttle: no K-turn. No turret.
• HWK-290: no K-turn. But it has a turret.
• Defender: white K-turn.

If some other ship(s) came along that also fit into any of those categories, then it would be easier to put a justifiable value on each ship.

The numbers I was using, by the way, are meant to describe the numerical change in combat efficiency, in terms of attack*defense.

I'd agree with most of your list except:

Shuttle and Hwk are push in my mind. Both require specific tactics but the stall is HUGE and the cost is CHEAP.

Defender is better than that! Equal to the xwing.

Advanced is much worse than that as someone already mentioned. Below bwing for me.

Phantoms is higher because it starts it's maneuver from 4 potential locations. I'd expect it to be just a tich below interceptor

The problem with trying to come up with objective values for a dial is that dials aren't objective. You can do this for jousting numbers because the answer to "which ship will win" is purely based on math. On the other hand, maneuver choices are mostly about personal preference and not everyone values each maneuver the same way. For example, the b-wing is a knife fighter while the x-wing is more of a generalist ship. If I want to get in close in the asteroids then the b-wing's 1-turns and short k-turn are incredibly valuable, while the x-wing's 3-turns are pretty much worthless to me. On the other hand, if I want a fast flanking ship the b-wing's lack of high-speed maneuvers is a big liability and the x-wing's missing 1-turns and long k-turn don't really matter. So how do you assign an overall value to those two dials?

The problem with trying to come up with objective values for a dial is that dials aren't objective.

It is possible, but the methodology is not nearly as clear-cut, and the numerical result isn't as certain as brute-force calculating all probabilities. It can work OK when you have a bunch of ships that share the same kinds of maneuvers. Combining this with the jousting value results in a "total efficiency" value that seems to be pretty accurate for ships with common functionality (including upgrades too, not just the dial).

Droofus: I certainly like your idea though I'm not certain that the values you assign to each manouver is correct. Of course that could possibly be discussed for ages before anyone gets it right. More importantly, I feel you are missing the impact that boost and barrel roll has on ships that gets those actions as standard. The B-wing for instance is far more agile than one might think, in no small part due to its barrel roll.

Put the decimated right up there at the top of the list.

One thing that isn't mentioned. Abilities such as boost and barrel roll. Now I know you are focusing on the dials but those abilities make positioning stronger.

Also you forgot the speed number of maneuvers. For example there are very few ships that have 1 turn, most have 2 and 3 turns. And the B-wing has a 2 K turn which allows it to flip and get back into the fight soon while the Tie Bomber has a 5 and needs allot of room to maneuver. Not a bad analysis but a little incomplete for the whole picture.

Don't leave out banks, there are some ships where banks are red and some which have no green banks. This really does make a strong impact on placement especially when it gets into a tight furball or asteroids.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

I'd also like to thank user Malmer for putting together his awesome maneuver reference sheets here, which I referred to throughout the process.

Droofus: I certainly like your idea though I'm not certain that the values you assign to each manouver is correct. Of course that could possibly be discussed for ages before anyone gets it right. More importantly, I feel you are missing the impact that boost and barrel roll has on ships that gets those actions as standard. The B-wing for instance is far more agile than one might think, in no small part due to its barrel roll.

You're certainly right. And with Advanced Sensors it becomes very very maneuverable over short distances. Which speaks of course to the larger point that maneuver dials are only one part of a ship. Action bars, stats, point value and available upgrades all play a role as well.

However, as Magic Juggler mentioned earlier, to try and account for every possible variable in maneuver itself is difficult enough, when we add in the presence of things like advanced sensors, boosts (whether innate or from engine upgrades), barrel rolls (which again can be innate or from expert handling) or even push the limit (especially in combination with the above two or even the above three), the range of options become such that you've completely outclassed my ability to account for them.

Perhaps it'll be viewed as a cop out, but I think that as long as we're clear that we're ONLY talking about the maneuver dial, we can leave the rest of the evaluation up to the players to make inferences as to what upgrades and actions would have good synergy or mitigating effects with the dial.

One thing that isn't mentioned. Abilities such as boost and barrel roll. Now I know you are focusing on the dials but those abilities make positioning stronger.

Also you forgot the speed number of maneuvers. For example there are very few ships that have 1 turn, most have 2 and 3 turns. And the B-wing has a 2 K turn which allows it to flip and get back into the fight soon while the Tie Bomber has a 5 and needs allot of room to maneuver. Not a bad analysis but a little incomplete for the whole picture.

Don't leave out banks, there are some ships where banks are red and some which have no green banks. This really does make a strong impact on placement especially when it gets into a tight furball or asteroids.

Please see my above comment regarding actions and their effect.

As for the speed, that at least was intentional and has been colored by truths I believe I've discovered in my own personal flying. I have found that distances (beyond the 1 and 5 forward) are VERY situational. I have found myself hamstrung by the 2 K-turn on the B-Wing as often as I've been flummoxed by the Tie-Bomber's 5 K. Indeed, there is something to be said for clearing the scrum completely and I trust you'll agree when I say that there is not much worse than attempting a K-Turn and ending up overlapping. Ditto for the 1 turn. There are times that the 1 is better, and it is certainly better to have as many turns as you can (which my system rewards) but to say that in the majority of situations where you want to turn, you're going to want to do a 1 turn? I haven't found that to be the case at all.

Most ships have all the banks. All have the 2-3 banks, so I don't see the value in assigning points to them. I've already assigned values to green and red maneuvers, whether they are banks or not. As for one banks, they are always green (points) and/or accompanied by a 1 forward (which gives a point of its own). Except for the defender. (The silly, silly defender. Bane of my system. ) However, I still don't think that having a white 1 bank is enough to award any points for.

Thanks for your interesting efforts. i would offer that a 1-turn is one of the best maneuvers in the game.

also, posessing two different k turns is extremely valuable, more so than merely twice as valuable as a single k turn for reasons yoh mentioned.

perhaps a useful approach would be to break each dial down into categories of maneuvers - top speed, hard turns, banks, etc.

Something is really missing in that you're under-rating, significantly, the Y-Wing and B-Wing - they are considered far more maneuverable than the HWK290. I think in general you're punishing red maneuvers too much in your methodology.

The same with the Firespray and YT1300 - I think most people would agree that the falcon dial is the better of the two (as the 1 turn is more useful than 3 turn, generally), but your methodology doesn't capture that.

I think a methodology needs to account for the maneuvers a little more specifically. That is: a 1 turn is an extremely handy maneuver for all size of ships, but a 2 turn is not as much.