Hello,

I didn't have beta access, can anyone tell me if the second edition weapons are going to be more varied than previously?

(1D10 + X, some with extra rules, many weapons that were basically duplicates, with damage types that basically didn't matter).

I'm hoping for a little more to differentiate between the autogun and the lasgun for instance. Less weapons that are more or less the same with everyone in the group aiming for one of the clearly best weapons because most of the weapons are pointlessly similar.

I mean this won't be a game breaker for me or anything, but I've long felt that the 40k rpg as a whole has a massive list of weapons that are very very similar, and don't feel differentiated at all.

Not Really.

"Not really." Is still the correct answer, but the rest is wrong. You're going off of the cancelled beta, now known as Living 2.3. The actual 2nd Edition of Dark Heresy is essentially identical to Only War.

RoF works exactly like it did in 1st Edition Dark Heresy, though the Attack Actions are slightly modified.

So essentially the weapon list i still hugely overpopulated by weapons that are basically the same. (In the above example the lasgun is clearly superior in every way).

That is a shame.

Too bad. But hopefully, they will add a good bit of flair and fluff to the weapons to give them a touch of that individuality that I so crave for my agents of the Inquisition.

Black crusade uses relatively few weapons but has rules for 'bolt-on' modifications, which allows a lot more variation.

I can't remember if this system made it through to the final cut for Dark Heresy, though.

So essentially the weapon list i still hugely overpopulated by weapons that are basically the same. (In the above example the lasgun is clearly superior in every way).

That is a shame.

Variance through pure numeric values is a red herring, and can only lead to certain categories of weapons being strictly better than others.

I don't know if you're familiar with Black Crusade and/or Only War, but ever since these two, the choice between a lasgun and an autogun is demonstrably meaningful, with each weapon offering specific advantages. DH2 keeps the rules that made it so.

Variance through pure numeric values is a red herring, and can only lead to certain categories of weapons being strictly better than others.

I don't know if you're familiar with Black Crusade and/or Only War, but ever since these two, the choice between a lasgun and an autogun is demonstrably meaningful, with each weapon offering specific advantages. DH2 keeps the rules that made it so.

I'm not arguing with you or anything, I'd just like to see the argument, since I feel like I'm a bit blind to it. The only thing I can think of is Variable Setting for select Las-weapons, but that can't be all you're getting at.

Variance through pure numeric values is a red herring, and can only lead to certain categories of weapons being strictly better than others.

I don't know if you're familiar with Black Crusade and/or Only War, but ever since these two, the choice between a lasgun and an autogun is demonstrably meaningful, with each weapon offering specific advantages. DH2 keeps the rules that made it so.

Could you explain why? As in, the specific mechanic that makes you think so, compared to earlier editions.

I'm not arguing with you or anything, I'd just like to see the argument, since I feel like I'm a bit blind to it. The only thing I can think of is Variable Setting for select Las-weapons, but that can't be all you're getting at.

Variable setting is one part of it, the other is RoF. In systems prior to BC, autogun won over lasgun fair and square thanks to variable ammo (at some point, manstoppers are simply dirt-cheap for what they do) and autofire capacity which made even the lousiest shot in the galaxy capable to put at least a few bullets on target.

Post-BC, however, it takes actual skill to effectively utilize autofire. I don't have the exact calulations handy, but IIRC a guy with thirty-something BS taking a half-aim action will on average score the same amount of hits with a semi- and full-auto burst, but with the lower overall chance of hitting in the latter case. For every BS increase that boosts the maximum amount of DoS you can generate, however, full-auto starts to pull ahead again statistically, giving autogun an edge.

When it comes to versatility, variable firing modes give the lasgun an edge early on, since it's tantamount to always having three different types of ammo loaded, and the overload mode is generally better than most SP ammo types - however, using non-standard settings negates the edge of having a greater ammo capacity, and Unreliable isn't exactly the trait you want on the single tool standing between you and the world of hurt. Meanwhile, again, manstoppers are dirt cheap, don't make the autogun unreliable, and they're just one of the many, many types of ammo available for autoguns, some of which may be situationally better than what lasgun firing modes offer.

Overall, if you're a guy whose shooting skill is at best passable, lasgun is your weapon of choice - it's reliable, shooty enough for your needs, can pack a hell of a punch in a pinch and you probably won't need to bother reloading it mid-combat. But if you're a really good shot and can afford some special ammo, you will probably appreciate the versatility and superior RoF of an autogun, and you're likely to have a Talent or two to make up for it's shortcomings (such as rapid reload).

Combat Questions:
How Viable is TWF? Pistols? Melee?

Pistol + Melee Weapon? (This being my Favorite).

I generally like the idea of Scum like characters who can TWF with Pistol and Sword. Or Dual pistols probably for a majority of the time as usually adding the sword takes alot of XP

Did they fix the insta death problem? Fights pretty much ended up if you got hit you were dead ... And then there was stuff that you just couldnt even touch even with the best weapons.

Game Mechanics:
Did they make it so you start with the skills your suppose to? (IE Scum start with stealth skills).

Do we still have class trees? Can we cross class?

How does character creation work now?

Does making a Best Quality Las Gun lose Reliable on overcharged?

Do Tech Priests still get stupid good Implants to start? Do they purchase them via XP?

[...]

Did they fix the insta death problem? Fights pretty much ended up if you got hit you were dead ... And then there was stuff that you just couldnt even touch even with the best weapons.

[...]

What toughness sponge a standard character at best has 4t and 4a and 4 wounds starting

Most of the one shots set you up vs some thing that did like 1d10+8 with t and armor so high you couldn't even touch em

What toughness sponge a standard character at best has 4t and 4a and 4 wounds starting

Most of the one shots set you up vs some thing that did like 1d10+8 with t and armor so high you couldn't even touch em

How in the nine hells did you start with 4 Wounds? At best ?

Either you're talking about the defunct first beta, or you seriously messed up on your rules comprehension. In all previous systems, starting wounds are equal to d5 + X, where X is a "racial" modifier, and it generally doesn't go below six.

Like Morangis said.

In DH 1st you roll d5+modifier (Home world specific). at worst you get, Void born 7 wounds, Imperial & Hive worlder 9 wounds, feral worlder 10. These are if you roll 1.

RT/DW roll d5 + (Toughness bonus x2) wounds if I remember correctly.

Didn't participate in DH 2nd so don't have anything for reference.

I'm glad I'm not hallucinating here, because I can confess that I hadn't peeked at the basic Dark Heresy 1st Ed. rules in a very, very long time, but there was no way I could wrap my head around somehow ending up with 4 Wounds on creation.

One of my main critiques of the WH40k system is Toughness Soak (and eventual bloat). At very low "levels", it's not very noticable, but as a game progresses and the fully natural power creep sets in, it becomes increasingly wonky. This is doubly true for NPC:s, since the favoured way of making things harder appears to be to simply glue more Toughness onto it.

DH2e starting Wounds are still d5+mod where the modifier ranges from 7 to 9. So that's a minimum of 8 starting Wounds.

And of course Blubber of Invulnerability is as bad as ever in DH2e.

Ok, I've a few questions with regards to weapons and what not, and this is for the devs really, unless anyone else has seen a finished copy of the book.

What sort of flavor with the armor and weapons can we expect, background wise? In DH1, Core book, we didn't get much by way of sector or planetary flavor at all, which bugged the HELL outta me. Wasn't until later books where we got that.

With so much detail being devoted to a Hive City/Hive World, can we expect something similar by way of weaponry and armor?

I would think it makes sense in a way, because Hive Cities often manufacture almost everything they'll need save for food (though some rare cases of self sufficiency exist, they're smaller hive cities) and it would be expected that local variations would add some color to the weapons and such. And it would make some sense for acolytes under an Inquisitor to carry local variants of weapons should they want to blend in a bit.

I'll keep my hopes up for laspistols that are essentially hand cannons with energy cells in their normal firing mode and STILL have those nifty overcharge modes that other lasweapons have. As well as autolasguns like we had in the Inquisitor's Handbook, and other books.

Talking about wounds...why does a noble have 1d5+9 ?? Wouldnt 8 or even 7 not be more appropriate ?

Do they have personal trainers or what ?

Talking about wounds...why does a noble have 1d5+9 ?? Wouldnt 8 or even 7 not be more appropriate ?

Do they have personal trainers or what ?

I agree that it's odd, but I think the logic goes that yes, they do. They also get good food, don't have to deal with the smog, and generally just live healthier lives than most others.

I think that's the logic, anyway. Personally, I'd bring that average down, simply because they are as likely to be decadent as they are to be healthy, and as likely to be incompetent as they are to have had personal battle-trainers.

No way, no how, will I accept a Noble having a higher base Wounds than a Feral- or Death-Worlder.

I'm pretty happy with where the weapons are after the last week of testing, mostly because we have that massive list of weapon mods (which really need combined acquisitions or a acquisitions modifier table)

Only thing I don't like and the only house rule I'll be using, is the lack of currency. Probably just my groups preference, but we like playing with cold hard cash, and it really helps slow progression just a little bit, as well as making it more rewarding to earn the bigger and better pieces of equipment. Black Crusade was understandable, because of the power level, but Heresy 2.0 it annoys me that pretty much any item is just one lucky roll away

Anyways, when do you guys think the book is arriving? Q3, and we've been having these weekly developer insights, it muuuust be soon, right? I don't wanna wait til September

Edit: whoops, just saw in the other thread that it's Aug 14

Talking about wounds...why does a noble have 1d5+9 ?? Wouldnt 8 or even 7 not be more appropriate ?

Do they have personal trainers or what ?

I agree that it's odd, but I think the logic goes that yes, they do. They also get good food, don't have to deal with the smog, and generally just live healthier lives than most others.

I think that's the logic, anyway. Personally, I'd bring that average down, simply because they are as likely to be decadent as they are to be healthy, and as likely to be incompetent as they are to have had personal battle-trainers.

No way, no how, will I accept a Noble having a higher base Wounds than a Feral- or Death-Worlder.

The better conditions are a good idea...but isnt that something that makes you less tough in a way...?

I mean...your body isnt really used to have contact with toxins or pollution. And if it does, it should collapse faster.

I would rather give a forge worlder 9+1d5 and a noble maybe even only 7+1d5 (though 1d5+8 should be fine).

Talking about wounds...why does a noble have 1d5+9 ?? Wouldnt 8 or even 7 not be more appropriate ?

Do they have personal trainers or what ?

I agree that it's odd, but I think the logic goes that yes, they do. They also get good food, don't have to deal with the smog, and generally just live healthier lives than most others.

I think that's the logic, anyway. Personally, I'd bring that average down, simply because they are as likely to be decadent as they are to be healthy, and as likely to be incompetent as they are to have had personal battle-trainers.

No way, no how, will I accept a Noble having a higher base Wounds than a Feral- or Death-Worlder.

The better conditions are a good idea...but isnt that something that makes you less tough in a way...?

I mean...your body isnt really used to have contact with toxins or pollution. And if it does, it should collapse faster.

I would rather give a forge worlder 9+1d5 and a noble maybe even only 7+1d5 (though 1d5+8 should be fine).

I think it would be the other way around -- the noble gets good nutrition and panimune vaccinations, while the forge worlder toils for 14 hours a day in terrible pollution.

Back to the original thread topic, I agree with the comparison between the lasgun and autogun expressed earlier. Lasguns also have their own form of "special ammunition" in the single-shot hotshot packs, for those times when you REALLY want something dead.

There is also a difference between long-lases and sniper rifles -- while the latter have access to special ammo, the former have Felling (2), which helps against the (surprisingly many) enemies with Unnatural Toughness included in the beta.

I think it would be the other way around -- the noble gets good nutrition and panimune vaccinations, while the forge worlder toils for 14 hours a day in terrible pollution.

In the sweat and toil of the 41st millennium, if you work in the underhive, the only immunity you build up is towards the smell of sweat, not towards carbon dioxide and ionized lead particles.

Back to the original thread topic, I agree with the comparison between the lasgun and autogun expressed earlier. Lasguns also have their own form of "special ammunition" in the single-shot hotshot packs, for those times when you REALLY want something dead.

There is also a difference between long-lases and sniper rifles -- while the latter have access to special ammo, the former have Felling (2), which helps against the (surprisingly many) enemies with Unnatural Toughness included in the beta.

It's just fundamentally odd to me on multiple levels, and I honestly thought that they'd axed that idea, but sure enough, I check the armoury in Only War, it's still there, and so I'd be surprised if it's not still there in DH2.

I think it would make a lot more sense if a "Hot-Shot Charge Pack" Ammunition instead was a "Hot Shot Charger" upgrade that allowed you to expend the entirety of a Charge Pack (or part of a Power Pack or a Backpack Power Pack) in a single shot.

This would also add to the idea of las-weapons being versatile in mechanical terms, while other weapons would be specialized, which would make sense with both the underlying idea of using las-weapons to begin with (interchangeability and durability) in fluff terms.

And the more I think of Felling, the weirder it feels. I still can't come up with how it's supposed to actually work, but on the other hand, I also never really understood skin-armour to begin with.