I know that the Z-95 and Phantom were the darlings of wave 4. In my opinion I think the defender is the red headed step child that the shuttle once was. I LOVE IT! I know I know, everyone says it costs to much blah blah blah. The truth is it doesn't. Why is this you ask? Because you do not NEED anything to make it great. I am starting to just add Ion cannon if I add anything to it and it still kicks butt. With 3 evade you don't need to buff that, at 3 attack you are good, at 3 hull and shield you are tough for a small ship. I personally love Vessery. With his ability you really can run him naked and have an awesome offensive force that shoots very accurately. I have little to no trouble keeping anyone I want in my arc either. I think the one speed bank is a great move that keeps you from over Persuing your target. For me atleast it filled that one hole the empire had nothing to fill. A tough hard hitting small base ship that could go toe to tie with the rebels.

I had about the same first experience with it. I quite like it either stock, or with the Ion Cannon as you suggest.

It's a good ship.

It may not need anything to make it great, but it also costs as much as Fel with PTL base. Fel seems clearly better against everything but a Falcon, and even then, I would guess Fel's double focus + evade would make him nearly as survivable as the Defender. But I'm not good at math so don't hold me to it.

I've said this before, but the problem with the Defender isn't that it's not good - it's just not as good as comparably priced alternatives. It isn't really like the Shuttle. The shuttle was always cheap, it just took people getting used to it to make it good. The Defender is already good, and obviously with time may become better, but it's never going to be cheap.

When a new ship comes out, I tend to run a playtest list simply stuffing in as many of the ship as I can to get a feel for the dial and actions of a stock ship, maybe some of the named pilots. I went in thinking the Defender was an ok ship, but I was very pleasantly suprised at just how 3 basic Deltas and/or Onyx pilots actually performs. The PS is a handicap, but I have not found the red turns to be a huge issue, particularly with the sweetness that is a white K-turn. Neither Brath nor Vessery have been overly amazing, but I can see how they could work and be worthy centerpieces.

As a wise person once said embrace the expense.

As I have stated in another post, I feel this is the best platform for the heavy laser cannon (for imperials) to date with its white k-turn and ability to dart to long range with its speed (and yes I know its expensive but I don't care, my bankroll can afford it). I cannot justify putting it on a firespray due to the back arc, nor do I like the idea of putting them on shuttles due to how hard it is to turn the cow around (at least for me, I am out of practice with the void manatee).

Edit: I know lore-wise that the upper wing had an ion cannon in it, but I'd rather shoot them with my three or four damage dice than ion them. Overwhelming firepower and all that.

Two Onyx Squadron Pilots with HLC, and Captain Jonus for support. Simple, clean, AND NASTY. The Defenders have basically a Focus+TL for every attack with the HLC. The only issue is keeping things in range 3, a ship with HLC's favorite range band...

yes! the Defender is SO amazing!!!!!!!!!!

does anyone have any numbers on how good the defender is cost wise?

That endless k-turn had me freaked out though. I split my ships into two waves and was able to catch them in a pincer though.

I like them but am still thinking they are a point or so overpointed. They are so close to being something. Guessing there's some stuff in the tubes to make up for that.

I've only played 3 games with the defender. In two of the three it died SUPER fast for it's agility and hit points, so consider me un-impressed so far.

I do not run the Shuttle now without EU and Adv S. It just does not pull its weight without those two upgrades IMHO. So for me you are at 28 points for the base shuttle or 30 for the base defender. For two points you lose the large base and systems slot but gain k-turn and speed. There are still a lot of games I will want that shuttle because nothing can clog up a lane like it can. I think the defender lasts quite a bit longer then the shuttle for me. It's seems like the opponents I face want to see damage on the board so they are more likely to go for the white whale which they will get hits on instead of the defender which could negate all damage. The whale doesn't last long under heavy fire where the defender can. For me 60-70 points left over seems like quite a bit with the ships the imperials have to field.

I've only played 3 games with the defender. In two of the three it died SUPER fast for it's agility and hit points, so consider me un-impressed so far.

You can chalk that up to either poor rolling (out of your control, sometimes it happens) or being focused down with no support ("Primaried"). Three defense dice is easy enough to overcome if one focus fires, and Defenders, while seldomly seen (at least in my meta, SoCal), are just scary enough to be focused down quickly when given the opportunity.

The opportunity cost starts to feel really steep when you realize you could take an Academy Pilot + an Alpha Squadron interceptor for the same price as a Delta.

I don't think the Delta is necessarily worse than that option, but it's certainly no better. Different uses. Different risks, different rewards.

I've only played 3 games with the defender. In two of the three it died SUPER fast for it's agility and hit points, so consider me un-impressed so far.

Sounds like a clear-cut case of PEBKAC.

I think I want to try Vessery with Cluster Missiles... and possibly Marksmanship. It's a bit of an overkill of 3 points, for essentially one killer missile attack, but it has the potential to slam in some serious damage in one round.

*edit* But more likely, on a bit more thought I'd just drop Marksmanship and take Outmaneuver instead. At least it's useful the rest of the game.

I think I want to try Vessery with Cluster Missiles... and possibly Marksmanship. It's a bit of an overkill of 3 points, for essentially one killer missile attack, but it has the potential to slam in some serious damage in one round.

Tested Vessery + Clusters extensively.

It's fantastic against anything with 1 agility, okay against anything with 2, and mediocre against anything with 3.

More or less what you would expect.

Never considered clusters with his ability! That could potentially do some serious damage.

I think I want to try Vessery with Cluster Missiles... and possibly Marksmanship. It's a bit of an overkill of 3 points, for essentially one killer missile attack, but it has the potential to slam in some serious damage in one round.

Tested Vessery + Clusters extensively.

It's fantastic against anything with 1 agility, okay against anything with 2, and mediocre against anything with 3.

More or less what you would expect.

Did you use it with the same EPT each time? Or did you try different ones?

I think I want to try Vessery with Cluster Missiles... and possibly Marksmanship. It's a bit of an overkill of 3 points, for essentially one killer missile attack, but it has the potential to slam in some serious damage in one round.

Tested Vessery + Clusters extensively.

It's fantastic against anything with 1 agility, okay against anything with 2, and mediocre against anything with 3.

More or less what you would expect.

Did you use it with the same EPT each time? Or did you try different ones?

I tried it with and without Outmaneuver. IIRC, Outmaneuver increases your EV by (very approximately) .5 damage for the total cluster missile attack. *Against a Falcon with an evade token and C3PO.

Marksmanship I did not test.

My feeling is that it would be a bit unreliable to set up a turn with Vessery target lock already available, another target lock already on the target, Vessery's action available for Marksmanship, and the target at range 1-2. Not outside the realm of possibility - just a bit more inconvenient than what I might otherwise be attempting.

I agree. It's not the easiest combination to set up. However, if someone could pull it off successfully, the look on the opponent's face would be well worth it I'd think.

It's probably more points then would be worth it. At 35 I wouldn't want more then maybe 3 points in upgrades.

I'm banging this around on a FB group too... It basically comes down to Cluster plus Marksmanship or Outmaneuver for 7 points total and you keep using the EPT, or 10 points for a combo of HLC + Outmaneuver. It's personal choice obviously. The CM gives you a strong punch one-time and the HLC is a good solid full game option.

Definitely cut Marksmanship.

You are basically never not Focusing or Barrel Rolling with a Defender.

Even taking target locks feels arduous and suboptimal.

Just a quick question - I haven't had the opportunity to use Vessery yet, though I do love Rex with the HLC and Focus. How does Vessery's ability work exactly? Can he acquire more than one target lock on the same opponent, or does someone else need to have a TL for his ability to trigger?

Someone else gets the TL for his ability to trigger - like a Shuttle with ST321 and Weapons Engineer.

He can get a TL for himself if needed for a missile to fire, but it's - as noted - not really needed kind of pointless for his primary or cannon if his target is carrying a red TL from someone else.

*edit for clarification*