I literally had to create an account just to post here.....

That is hilarious!!! Welcome!!

This thread:

InvestFDC,

Thank you for making it clear you weren't personally attacking. I didn't take offense. Different opinions is what makes this world turn.

In response to your post, VanorDM already responded pretty much exactly how I would have answered.

It was only the 2nd round of combat. Which means it is much easier to predict an opponents movement. The skill in this game is in fact predicting where your opponent will be. And if you're in a position where you can't predict then you need to be aware that you're using a highly mobile ship and you should exit the fight and come back around. Squints are flankers. If they don't have a clear shot while being outside arcs then they should be playing highly defensively.

Which I THINK he wasn't because he said he was trying to finish off the phantom at all cost.

If the skill is predicting where your opponent will be then how do you apply the skill against someone you do not know? So many different playing styles and opinions and such that wouldn't predicting where your opponent will be just be another case of luck? And suppose you guess correctly 5 out of 6 times and miss every time? And the 1 out of 6 times the opponent guesses correctly where you will go and gets all hits while you whiff the greens? This is a sticking point.

I get the probabilities part - I try to fly a squad that fields a lot of red dice to offset my lack of experience and lack of ability to practice. I think we've all been one-shot at range 3 through an asteroid enough to identify with the OP. As I have said, I go back and forth on the concept and after this exchange I am rethinking the skill camp but it is a long trek back

You don't play the player. You play vs his ships. Ships don't change. Their dials remain the same always. In the case of swarms, you know they typically stay together.

You take all these pieces of information and make a prediction on what his move will be. Skill of knowing the ships, strategies and tactics that are used with those specific ships. You can't possibly know every opponent you play. But you can know everything there is to know about the ships they are using.

That's the skill I'm talking about/

Ribann, in all seriousness, why didn't you leave it at "look at what a horrible experience I had". You could've even invited others to share their bad beats and then it could've been a cathartic thing for everyone. Instead, you're now not doing the one thing you've communicated you wanted to do, make friends and stuff. I'd like to play you in person for funsies. You near the Bay Area, CA? We'll play, you might beat me, I might beat you, it'll be great. But then again, you're always trying to get people on Skype, you must be in the boonies, no?

You ma'am, fail at understand the most basic concepts and I literally cannot help you.

You may want to consider hiring a proofreader before preaching about language. Insofar as books are concerned, might I recommend Trolling For Dummies? Unless you were purposefully trying to make yourself out to be the forum clown, you've done a terrible job at rustling our jimmies.

We're on page 8 heading for page 9. If there's one thing Ribann has done flawlessly, it's rustle our jimmies.

We're on page 8 heading for page 9. If there's one thing Ribann has done flawlessly, it's rustle our jimmies.

If you say so. I don't think I've laughed this hard since the first time I saw Ted.

Let it go, man, unless you enjoy pointless arguing?

I enjoy giving trolls just enough rope to hang themselves.

If you can warn the player before the move and be right most of the time then I would sway back to the skill position but saying it after the fact really doesn't advance the argument.

Well first off, you can. It's not hard to look at the board and decide what the best possible move is. The fact that you don't know for sure what the other guy will do, doesn't change the fact that you can figure out with a fair amount of surety what his best move is, and then what your best move to counter it is.

That really is the difference between a good and great player, how well you can read the board, know the options the other person has, and what you should do with that info.

Perhaps the best move is to run away, perhaps the best move is to k-turn, perhaps you should slow walk and barrel roll...

If someone puts a Tie Interceptor in a spot where it can get shot at with 9 dice, they clearly did something wrong. Because the last thing you want to do with a glass cannon is let it get shot at... Unless doing so let you move other ships into even better positions and the whole thing was on the lines of a gambit.

The fact that so many of us say he did something wrong is not just hindsight, it's that we know he either did something wrong, or was quite simply out played. Although taking advantage of someone's mistake is a huge part of what we call skill.

Again going back to probabilities, it's quite simple to show that the probability of a Tie Interceptor getting killed goes up each attack made against it in a round...

Kinda of on a side note but is it bad to take a risk if the reward is worth it. Had he have gotten the last two hits on Echo then what would the verdict be? I don't recall the particular Interceptor the OP lost but from a tactical standpoint would taking out Echo have been worth the risk had it succeeded? The other issue I have is that the same action need be viewed the same from a strategy standpoint such that if it was bad form to lose an Interceptor to Echo then actually killing Echo should still be bad form. If it is bad only because he lost the Interceptor then the dice are the only variable in the equation.

If you go back to the chess example, the general strategy is to continue doing the best possible moves, that don't leave you at a disadvantage, eventually somebody will make a mistake or the game ends in a draw. Now with x-wing you can kill stuff with luck that you couldn't in chess, but that doesn't mean there aren't correct moves to make in situations. Going outside of that correct move may be unpredictable, but leave you in a worse situation.

The opponent could split a swarm early for example, it would be a surprise move, but very possibly leaves the swarm vulnerable and unable to capitalize on it's strength. Did you predict it would happen? No, you didn't need to, all you have to do is capitalize on the mistake. They could get lucky and get out of the jam, but they've made their task that much harder, and more prone to more mistakes.

Yes, randomness does happen with the dice, some ships are more prone to it than others. It's why hull upgrades are more popular that stealth devices, lower chances of randomness screwing you. That's why falcons are so popular with 3PO, it minimizes randomness in favor of guarantees.

I only respect my own opinion, and as soon as people get critical of me I become hyper-aggressive and lose my mind.

Fixed for ya, brah.

Ribann, there's an old debater's saying: When the debater stoops to personal insults, it's a sure sign that he's (or she's) losing the debate. You will be more well-regarded if you stop being so thin-skinned and defensive. You are consistently the most unpleasant person on this board, and I've just started scrolling past your posts, because they always seem to devolve in the same way: you start name-calling and predicting that you'll wreck everyone on Vassal.

Please stop taking disagreement as a personal attack. And take this in the spirit intended; as the perception of someone who reads these boards, but doesn't often comment. In other words, I have no dog in this fight, and am just telling you what I see.

I like how you white knights come in and try and tell me this. Stop taking the time to actually read my posts and stop trying and coach me on forum etiquette.

I don't care what you think.

I respect other opinions.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I stand with Ribann, the dice are traitors. I wish I was good enough to arc dodge my tournament opponents all game long in a tournament setting. I just have not figured out how to arc dodge falcons or destroy 4 OMGs and a dark curse in a 60 minute game. Someday I will have the skill so that dice are not a factor in playing X Wing, until then I will be a noob that has to hope my dice will win for me.

Post deleted. This guy isnt worth the energy..

I stand with Ribann, the dice are traitors. I wish I was good enough to arc dodge my tournament opponents all game long in a tournament setting. I just have not figured out how to arc dodge falcons or destroy 4 OMGs and a dark curse in a 60 minute game. Someday I will have the skill so that dice are not a factor in playing X Wing, until then I will be a noob that has to hope my dice will win for me.

This

is the end?

I actually have a question for some of you naysayers:

When you play interceptor lists, do you NEVER get shot at? I mean, I've watched Dallas Parker on Vassal play an interceptor list and there are times he doesn't arc dodge. I mean, where do you draw the line?

When YOU ALL play interceptor lists, you can't tell me that you don't get shot at here and there. Isn't that right?

I did the 4 Royals with PtL and got thrashed every time. I started out deployed across the line, I started out in a box swarm, a pn wheel swarm, in two groups of two and one of my ships is always in an arc at some point or other. I turtle and drop blank greens, I dive behind asteroids and drop blank greens. Seems like the safest place is to just fly off the board

The list is viable as others have used it well, I just don't have the time to learn it. Upon the advice of others I have moved to ship lists that don't rely on green soo much. I am an Imperial player but I have started to move to Rebel since anyone can have success with those ships (what I was told, paraphrasing but I know what he meant )

Dice in a game means that there is an element of chance involved, that is a given. Dice or bones or sticks have been used in games of chance for time immemorial. The cool thing about this game and others is that you can hedge your bet as it were through maneuver and other elements. You had a bad run of it and that is all. Look at what happened, learn and get back in the saddle. Yes luck is involved because there are dice, but that is not all.

"People stopped responding to my troll thread, guess it's time to bump it with another trite, non-substantive post."

Dice still determine most games.

Lists don't even matter....perhaps 10-15% of the actual game.

Dice determine approx. 50% of the game.

Movement the other 35-40% of the game.

The meta has now shifted to: "How can you roll better than your opponent?"

You have to set yourself up to roll dice better.

Formation flying is dead.

I think it really depends on how you play X-Wing, which is true about how you play any miniatures game and really what you are trying to get out of it.

I think the main problem with X-Wing is that the tournament play element has turned the game away from its intended purpose and made it a game of analytic s and competitive play for too many people. Miniature games when analyzed never hold up to scrutiny, they are by most design definitions broken. The goal of miniatures games should not be for them to be played competitively but to be played creatively, I think a lot of people miss out on that fun reason for playing the game.

I see most people on this forum talking about "lists" and giving each other advice on "effectiveness" and "statistics" with presumptions of tournament play, then a few pages later complaining about the unbalance of different units and statistical anomalies of dice.

When you approach the game creatively by creating interesting scenarios, or re-creating scenarios from the endless resources on Star Wars the games real form comes out. Naturally you still want to win, but if you and your group approach the game as a quasi role-playing game where the battle is the story your telling for the day, its a lot more fun. I mean this is a game of Star Wars space battles with simple rules and all the tools you need to go nuts with your imagination and create fun gaming experiences, all ruined in the name of cut throat competition.

I don't think anyone who understands even the most basic elements of game design could argue that the impact of dice on the game is dramatic and can swing games one way or the other, but the point of the game is that its fun to move miniatures around a table with a friend and roll dice. If its just about the competition (just about winning) for you, I would imagine most board games and pretty much all miniature games are "technically broken" for you.

Ressurrects the thread with a pointless post. And then it gets answered by somebody telling everybody that they should play the game on a different way.

Have you ever thought that the reason many people play or try to be more "competitive" in this game is because they actually enjoy competition on miniature games ? Really, that's the kind of discussion that people had had for many many years, and i still don't understand why fluff gamers feel the imperative need to tell others how they would be enjoying their hobby the right way if only they listened to them.

Dice can decide games, but they rarely do. Bad decission making loses games all the time.

"Forge a narrative".

It was a suggestion for people who play competitive and complain about how broken the game is like the Op. Clearly he is not enjoying the game and I offered an observation as to why. I don't think the thread is pointless, the Op presented an aspect of the game that rings true... No matter how good you are if you roll badly you will lose... I only question whether that makes the game less enjoyable, after all is a game only good if you win?

He is just trolling BigKahuna. And no, being competitive is not about winning (seriously), is about improving yourself and playing your best against challenging opponents. There is where the fun is inside the game and outside it for some people. If you think competitive players have fun stomping new players instead of feeling bad for them, you are quite wrong.

I disagree that the game is won or lost on dice luck. You can roll incredibly poorly and still win or roll really well and lose.

It's more about throwing more red dice than your opponent is and throwing less green dice than your opponent. Or in other words, getting more shots on your opponent than what they are getting on you. Actions also play a HUGE part in mitigating bad luck. So blocking opponents without getting blocked yourself.

Really when it comes down to it, good piloting is way more valuable than relying on lucky dice.

I disagree that the game is won or lost on dice luck.

I disagree with your disagreement.

In one of the top 8 games at Nationals I rolled 0 Evades on 10 Evade dice, with focus, whereas he rolled 11 hits on 11 Attack dice, with a focus for 4 of those dice and no tokens/modifiers for the last 7.

It was extreme, and sure, it doesn't happen often but it DID cost me the game.

I disagree that the game is won or lost on dice luck.

I disagree with your disagreement.

In one of the top 8 games at Nationals I rolled 0 Evades on 10 Evade dice, with focus, whereas he rolled 11 hits on 11 Attack dice, with a focus for 4 of those dice and no tokens/modifiers for the last 7.

It was extreme, and sure, it doesn't happen often but it DID cost me the game.

There's a million other factors at work there though.

For example, I lost a game once where I literally rolled only two evades the whole game. The rest of it was either blanks or focuses. My first 10 green dice were all blanks. Lost my most expensive ship in the first round of shooting. The game still ended up being VERY close though.

But, I don't count the dice as losing me the game. It was my positioning. I had that ship too exposed and my opponent was able to get more shots on it than I should have allowed. If I had positioned that ship better, rolls wouldn't have made a difference. Even if he did take about 4 hits, he could have survived to break off combat and give the rest of my team time to set up a flank.

I've had other games where I've had hilariously bad luck and won. Most games ebb and flow between good and bad luck. It's all about mitigating risk.

There's just so many other factors involved you can't just blame the dice.