Say FU to me in real life for rolling 8/9 evades, and see where that gets you. Anonymity can embolden some to say things they normally wouldn't.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I've said that and worse to people I've played with. Of course I was grinning at the time, so they knew I wasn't saying it to be a jerk, saying it more as a joke.

Maybe the guy you played against meant it the same way but didn't realize how badly tone carries over text.

In one game, I rolled 17 attack dice, and all 17 of them turned out to be red. 17 out of 17. You can't explain that.

I've gone back and forth on the dice vs. skill debate and I am currently in the "it's a dice game" camp. I have no time to practice and when I play I am pretty rusty. Wonderwaaagh may chime in as my most recent opponent but I seem to win or lose on the opponents green dice. He's a far better pilot than I but when the dice are cold you can't beat the dice.

Remember, though, that if it's strictly a dice game, it doesn't matter if you're rusty. It doesn't matter how often you play. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a better or worse pilot, since the luck of the dice determine the outcome.

I've gone back and forth on the dice vs. skill debate and I am currently in the "it's a dice game" camp. I have no time to practice and when I play I am pretty rusty. Wonderwaaagh may chime in as my most recent opponent but I seem to win or lose on the opponents green dice. He's a far better pilot than I but when the dice are cold you can't beat the dice.

Remember, though, that if it's strictly a dice game, it doesn't matter if you're rusty. It doesn't matter how often you play. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a better or worse pilot, since the luck of the dice determine the outcome.

That's true, and to take it a step further... how many games have most of us played where at least one ship flew off the table? That is a measure of skill, and knowing the game... not the dice.

Having to roll 9 defense dice in a single round against a ship that is designed to arc dodge certainly doesn't showcase piloting skill.

Say FU to me in real life for rolling 8/9 evades, and see where that gets you. Anonymity can embolden some to say things they normally wouldn't.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I've said that and worse to people I've played with. Of course I was grinning at the time, so they knew I wasn't saying it to be a jerk, saying it more as a joke.

Maybe the guy you played against meant it the same way but didn't realize how badly tone carries over text.

that is totally me... In any game I am like a sailor on shore-leave... cursing every other word. Sometimes in frustration, sometimes in good fun. Usually play with really good friends so sometimes it is a (temporary) personal attack lol.

My opinion... there is quite a bit of luck in this game. Yes there are tons of ways to mitigate that luck and normalize your results a bit more but its still there. Clearly enough to allow "good" competitive players to consistently win. Yet in most of my games I can tell you exactly when the game was decided and it usually is in the middle of the game, sometimes by poor move sometimes by hot/cold dice.

The real question is on what scale can you compare it to?

Chess? Nope, the only piece of luck could be consider how white/black is selected...

American Football? There is lots of skill, planning etc. Also some luck based on how the ball bounces in certain situations etc. I would say there is more planning/skill in football then x-wing.

Settlers of Catan? Lots of luck there too... but some still say there is skill. I personally would say there is more luck in settlers than x-wing.

I would probably say any board game that has some sort of random option/upgrade mechanic (refreshed cards after every round etc) has a similar luck aspect as x-wing. Those games can have lucky streaks where you get shafted or given the win. Though in most cases it is the person that best uses of opportunities at hand wins.

I win way more than I lose. I put it down to:

- strong spacial awareness

- ability to build lists that can face varible threats

- the skill to use the abilities available to me

...and I find that is enough to mitigate the large variation rolling small quantities of dice involves. And when it isn't, I remember that it's just a game.

this forum is starting to seem more petty than i had expected.

Don't let a loud few scare you away. We tend to scare them away after enough banter and hitting the report and block button enough times.

I'll say this and I'll stop:

If anyone disagrees with me or hates me or whatever....

Jump on Skype with me and some others! X-wing is about community. Everyone I've EVER Skyped with over a game I've made a long-term friend of the game.

Some guys on here like Wonder and Vorpel and Scottie and many others have no idea what it is like to get to know someone over X-wing. They are here to flout their opinion of the game, put others down, and stay forever alone.

I'm here to make friends and that's what I've done. Anyone that hates me can feel free to Skype with me at any point and tell me how much they hate me. After they've vented, we'll play some X-wing, have some beers, and have a laugh.

This community is about interaction and I'm trying to let all you reading this X-wing is the best thing that could ever happen to you. There are so many awesome players out there waiting to get to know you.

I'm one of those players and you are ALWAYS welcome to play me on Vassal and shoot the breeze on Skype. A LOT of people have and will continue to do so.

It's amazing that you want everyone to get to know you and yet send personal attacks at all of us... also, that you don't think anyone "gets" you but that you know exactly what everyone else is like...

I was going to take you up on a Vassal Game but if this is the way you act/talk even a little bit it's not worth 2 hours of my life. No one will take you up on this because of the way you are representing yourself here.

I'm not Ribann, nor do I know his exact intentions for posting this, but I'll take a stab and guess that he posted it merely to say "Hey guys, look at this insane set of bad luck I just had! Funny, huh? Oh well, back to the game..."

Plausable, if this wasn't the very topic of discussion between Ribann and others in another thread. A thread that ended with him calling everybody fat losers (not an exact quote the actual quote was a bit more theatrical). So for him to start a thread titled the way this one is, it doesn't take much to see he's poking the same topic again. I mean if those were really his intentions then what's up with the thread title? You see how he responds to people in this thread.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/112023-the-meta-is-bigger-than-you/page-5

But he's doing what he does in every thread he posts in. Taking an half cocked position, insulting people who disagree with it, resorting to trolling when he realizes he can't defend his position or his insults. Then wondering why people consider him a troll.

Report button and block button are your friends. Everyone has to do a little extra policing on this forum since mods are not as vocal as others. Report report report.

Dice are almost enough to make me want to fly rebels...

NEVER! FOR THE GLORY OF THE EMPIRE!

In one game, I rolled 17 attack dice, and all 17 of them turned out to be red. 17 out of 17. You can't explain that.

This one game I rolled 17 attack dice and not all 17 of them were red... explain that one!

It's amazing that you want everyone to get to know you and yet send personal attacks at all of us...

I was at least semi-willing to try and debate this with him in the other thread. But then he started with the personal attacks. Claiming that because he could "destroy me" in X-Wing that somehow proves his point. Generally refusing to listen to anything anyone has to say, and all around trollish behavior proved beyond any doubt he wasn't interested in a debate.

The very idea that anyone would take him up on this offer is laughable...

He claims that anyone who's played X-Wing and used skype becomes his friend yet then goes on to say this... "They are here to flout their opinion of the game, put others down, and stay forever alone." And says it about people who have done a lot for this community. That alone says everything that needs to be said about Ribann...

Also the mere fact that he started this tread proves a great deal all by its self.

We don't need another thread going down this road, gentlemen. Let's let this thread die and fall to the abyss..

Far too much of this has been happening lately..

Now stop before I report this entire forum for indecent exposure..

So help me understand something 6 pages later... if the OP is saying dice matter or are the end all be all... how then can he emphatically say he will destory anyone??? Isnt that up to the dice gods and the dice gods alone?

I had a bowl of delicious Cocoa Pebbles for breakfast this morning. Along with some bacon.

Just seemed like it was time to mention that.

Jim

I had a bowl of delicious Cocoa Pebbles for breakfast this morning. Along with some bacon.

Just seemed like it was time to mention that.

Jim

Mmmmmmmm...........bacon.

I'll destroy both of you when it comes to eating cocoa pebbles and bacon... Get on Skype or Vassal, I'll prove it! Scared arent ya!!!!

You cowards that won't log into Skype are pathetic. I'd wreck you in X-wing and really, you should just go cry in your pillow. Keep talking your trash. My invitation is always open and you won't take it because you are cowards.

G'night.

Ribann, I'm not trying to be rude, but I've been reading your posts and even debating with you for awhile, and you just don't come across as very pleasant. You drop insults all the time, often to people who are trying to respectfully disagree with you, constantly disparage others education and skill as a basic debate tactic, ask people to play you on vassal while simultaneously talking up how you are going to destroy them, and then further insult people when they don't want to get to know you better and play some games.

People have limited time, and you just don't present yourself as someone I, or probably many others on here, would want to invest our time gaming with.

I'm not sure what kind of response you expect when you invite someone to play with the statement, "I would school you in X-wing, but not one of you will have the balls to get on Vassal and play me."

That's not an invitation to a game, that's just internet tough guy bully tactics.

That's not an invitation to a game, that's just internet tough guy bully tactics.

Lets be completely honest and clear here.

He has no interest in actually playing anyone. I don't doubt for a moment he'd be a massively unpleasant person to play against over Vassle and Skype. No one who acts like he does is going to be fun to be around as long as he thinks he can get away with it.

Look at his post history here, there's been nothing really positive or helpful in anything he's said. Anyone who thinks this thread was started for any reason other then to be a troll, I'm sure has realized the error of that thought.

I mean look at the statements he makes. He's insulting to anyone who disagrees with him, then says we're all cowards for not wasting our time playing him...

He's undoubtedly doing it for two reasons. One so he can feel superior when no one takes him up on it, and on the off chance anyone does, he'll have a chance to berate and be offensive as possible until you simply turn off Vassal at which point he'll claim victory.

I like how I can literally not post anything for hours on end, come back and read all the rage.

All I have to do is literally start a thread about anything and people just get all kinds of upset and mad.

Everyone is like, "We don't need all this from you Ribann! I will block you! I'll report you!" And yet they still continue to read and reply to my posts and let me know how upset they are. So much win.

Actually, a lot of the posts are trying to be pleasant to you, see things from your side, engage you in conversation, or try to help you understand why you are stirring up such animosity when you continue to exclaim confusion about the fact that people won't play you on Vassal, consider you a troll, or block you.

But you seem to actively ignore anyone who tries to engage in conversation with you, or else try to misconstrue their interest as some sort of attack.

And...now you are just pretty much claiming to be a troll, since you seem to consider getting any kind of a reaction to be "so much win." So...ok then. I guess you aren't actually interested in any social interaction? I guess I'm still not 100% convinced your are 100% trying to be a troll, but you seem to be actively putting effort into establishing that persona.

I like how I can literally not post anything for hours on end, come back and read all the rage.

All I have to do is literally start a thread about anything and people just get all kinds of upset and mad.

Everyone is like, "We don't need all this from you Ribann! I will block you! I'll report you!" And yet they still continue to read and reply to my posts and let me know how upset they are. So much win.

The only one slavering all over themselves in this thread is you, bud. Murgle gurgle.

And...now you are just pretty much claiming to be a troll, since you seem to consider getting any kind of a reaction to be "so much win."

Nice to see he's being honest about that at least. Myself I find the best part of this thread is the "This post is hidden" for every post he makes. Because I'm pretty sure he see's my post, but I don't have to see his so I don't have any idea what his response to me is.

Unless someone else quotes it, and even then I tend to just scroll past it.

The most aggravating thing anyone can do to troll is ignore him, because that means they lose.

I've gone back and forth on the dice vs. skill debate and I am currently in the "it's a dice game" camp. I have no time to practice and when I play I am pretty rusty. Wonderwaaagh may chime in as my most recent opponent but I seem to win or lose on the opponents green dice. He's a far better pilot than I but when the dice are cold you can't beat the dice.

Remember, though, that if it's strictly a dice game, it doesn't matter if you're rusty. It doesn't matter how often you play. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a better or worse pilot, since the luck of the dice determine the outcome.

That's true, and to take it a step further... how many games have most of us played where at least one ship flew off the table? That is a measure of skill, and knowing the game... not the dice.

But then why do I win as often (not saying a lot here ;-) as I do? I think that is the crux of argument, the dice overwhelmingly skew the player skill comparison. I should not be winning as much as I do if skill had that much of an impact. Granted, if the litmus test of skill were "don't fly off the board" then I am a high skill pilot. Putting aside discussion of game balance and such, I am a firm believer that dice trumps skill but I could pendulum back the other way.

I think to do an imperical test you would have to have a test game where you recorded two attack actions once. An attack with dice and an attack where you assigned automatic damage. The statistics sample-fu guys would have to come up with rules for a test to see what would happen if the randomness of dice were eliminated.

I imagine most would have zero interest in this but part of my job involves Six Sigma so I think it would be fun to explore.

But then why do I win as often (not saying a lot here ;-) as I do?

Because you're a better player then you apparently think you are?

If dice where the primary factor in win/lose then any 2 people could put any 2 lists on the table, and the outcome would be completely random. The mere fact that you win more then you lose is pretty strong evidence that the dice aren't the primary factor.

Or look at people like Paul or Doug the 2 World Champs. Neither one made it there just because of luck. They both consistently won matches and tournaments, and consistently keep doing so. That kind of thing does not happen when luck is the primary factor.

More to the point, Dice aren't really even about luck, they're about probabilities, and part of being a good player is knowing how to make those work for you.

That's why the Tie Swarm is such a good list, and continues to be one, because it stacks the odds in your favor by having more dice, which means you're more likely to be at the center of the bell curb.

I've gone back and forth on the dice vs. skill debate and I am currently in the "it's a dice game" camp. I have no time to practice and when I play I am pretty rusty. Wonderwaaagh may chime in as my most recent opponent but I seem to win or lose on the opponents green dice. He's a far better pilot than I but when the dice are cold you can't beat the dice.

Remember, though, that if it's strictly a dice game, it doesn't matter if you're rusty. It doesn't matter how often you play. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a better or worse pilot, since the luck of the dice determine the outcome.

That's true, and to take it a step further... how many games have most of us played where at least one ship flew off the table? That is a measure of skill, and knowing the game... not the dice.

But then why do I win as often (not saying a lot here ;-) as I do? I think that is the crux of argument, the dice overwhelmingly skew the player skill comparison. I should not be winning as much as I do if skill had that much of an impact. Granted, if the litmus test of skill were "don't fly off the board" then I am a high skill pilot. Putting aside discussion of game balance and such, I am a firm believer that dice trumps skill but I could pendulum back the other way.

I think to do an imperical test you would have to have a test game where you recorded two attack actions once. An attack with dice and an attack where you assigned automatic damage. The statistics sample-fu guys would have to come up with rules for a test to see what would happen if the randomness of dice were eliminated.

I imagine most would have zero interest in this but part of my job involves Six Sigma so I think it would be fun to explore.

In the interests of having an actual discussion on the topic:

Going back to my point in a previous thread, I would bring up that just because one factor CAN trump another factor doesn't make it the most important factor.

One example is weather. Many battles have been decided by weather. But that doesn't make weather the most important factor in a battle. It is a contributing factor that CAN trump things like tactics, logistics, training, and equipment, those other factors can be used to mitigate the effect of weather.

Likewise while skill CAN be trumped by luck, that doesn't necessarily make luck the most important factor in the game in general.

We can see this illustrated fairly easily in both the tournament scene, and in individual games. Good players do consistently well with multiple lists, and with both good and bad luck. Certainly there are instances where luck overrides their skill and build, but that only means that luck is a significant factor (which I don't think anyone disputes), not that it is the most important factor. Compare the game to poker (as others have noted) which has an even greater element of randomness, but is still recognized to be more skill reliant than not.

In my opinion the game provides enough methods of mitigating luck that I personally wouldn't qualify the game as being more focused on chance than skill. In general an excellent player can beat a poor player every time. As the players skill levels get closer together the importance of luck obviously increases, but there is definitely a point a player of sufficient skill will be able to beat a player of low enough skill well over 99% of the time.

It is interesting that he brings up last year's final game. There were luck swings on both sides, so I think it balanced out. That said, the point where Paul won was pretty clear to me. And it wasn't a die roll. It was a barrel roll that should've been another action.

Having to roll 9 defense dice in a single round against a ship that is designed to arc dodge certainly doesn't showcase piloting skill.

To play devils advocate and in no way reflect on Nataris, this is the slippery slope that keeps bringing me back to the "it's a dice game" belief. Taking this sentiment to its conclusion one can say that the player failed to anticipate the opponent's move, failed to read their mind. Then it can go as far as the player should have shook the dice three times before tossing the dice instead of two or four times (five is RIGHT OUT!!!)

Just saying that the player should have done something else seems to be a classic case of hindsight being 20/20. If you can warn the player before the move and be right most of the time then I would sway back to the skill position but saying it after the fact really doesn't advance the argument.

More to the point, Dice aren't really even about luck, they're about probabilities, and part of being a good player is knowing how to make those work for you.

That's why the Tie Swarm is such a good list, and continues to be one, because it stacks the odds in your favor by having more dice, which means you're more likely to be at the center of the bell curb.

This is pretty huge. There is a pretty big difference between a game of luck (Shoots and Ladders, Sorry, sufficiently skilled players of Monopoly) and games of probability (Poker, X-Wing). Understanding and maximizing your statistical chances is a skill, and one that X-Wing relies on heavily.

And a big thing about games of probability is that technically they CAN come down to luck (it's possible the best poker player in the work might never get a good hand), but in the VAST MAJORITY of cases that won't happen, and the main determining factor in winning is your ability to mitigate the randomness inherent in the game.

Again, real war is a good example. It is always possible a hurricane or a bad winter will cost you a war no matter how well you are prepared. But in general, preparing for bad luck is more important than the luck itself in most cases.