First off, hello to everyone! A couple things you may be able to help me with:

1) I paid for the beta but lost the file and now I can't find it anywhere. I never had the chance to dive in but remember liking what I read. Is it forever gone? I know it's over but I did buy it so...

2) I missed...but heard about...to include all the reactions (good and bad)...sweeping(?) changes to the system. My quandary is that I am not a huge fan of two bits: some of the more fantastical themes (the "What's a wrench?" tone 40K sometimes seems to give off*) and more importantly, the rules of the first DH. So, how much has changed? Is it still a race to stack every modifier possible no matter what? Is it still stacked against you or can you be a more cinematic bad-ass? How crunchy are the rules now? Are NPCs a blob of math you have to jump back and forth to decipher for use?

Please don't think I'm pooping on the old version and applause to FFG for making the games, I only hope to find a new edition that I can enjoy. Thank you!

*it sometimes seems that the level of ignorance toward technology is a wee much. Calling a computer a cogitator is fine, but believing your laser rifle is possessed by a spirit strikes me as too ignorant. I've always had a difficult time finding the point where a non-Mechanicus genius ends and a Tech Priest begins. Less to do with any edition but I figured you fine folks could square me away.

Nobody? Sad panda...

1. Unless someone wants to correct me, I'm 99% sure the beta PDF is no longer available and won't be. You should still get the discount on the release PDF if you bought it through a site that gave that deal (DriveThruRPG, e.g.)

2. Have you played Only War? It's a lot like only war. They rolled back almost all of the substantive changes from the original beta, and the final state of the beta was mechanically almost exactly the same as Only War.

I can't add much, but ...

*it sometimes seems that the level of ignorance toward technology is a wee much. Calling a computer a cogitator is fine, but believing your laser rifle is possessed by a spirit strikes me as too ignorant. I've always had a difficult time finding the point where a non-Mechanicus genius ends and a Tech Priest begins. Less to do with any edition but I figured you fine folks could square me away.

This is totally up to you. It's your game.

Details such as the extent of technological superstition differ a lot depending on which book you read. Remember, there is no canon , but a lot of interpretations between different authors. Interestingly, with 40k, a lot (not all) can also simply be attributed to different cultures on different worlds. A feral world native who is used to shamanistic rituals, for example, could totally believe there's a little spirit in the lasgun he is handed from some Imperial who recruited him out of his backwater village. A ganger from some hive world, on the other hand, is way too used to machinery as an everyday item, and not sufficiently exposed to Mechanicus indoctrination to think the same.

Personally, I only consider the machine spirit stuff to be mandatory for Tech-Priests, as an important facet of the setting's tone. For everyone else it would be optional and depend on their homeworld's culture, meaning how easily they'd buy into this stuff - though there also is a range from "every piece of tech has a spirit" to "only computers have spirits", and I could see the latter being much more prevalent in the setting, both as a mixture of people lacking understanding of how computers cogitators function, as well as because of the increased interfacing they do with the user .. not to mention that some cogitators actually do have an autonomously thinking machine spirit, it just happens to be a lobotomised brain in a jar. And since the average populace does not know these Mechanicus secrets, they could find it hard to differentiate between "intelligent" cogitators and "dumb" ones, and simply resort to thinking they are all the same.

That's my take on it, anyways. Do note that some sources actually do buy into the "machine spirit" stuff 100%, meaning as if there would be actual spirits living inside tech. In fact, I have a feeling Dark Heresy might do this as well, considering some of the Tech-Priest's abilities (such as unjamming ranged weapons with an area-of-effect "spell"), especially as this RPG has apparently also adopted the stance that there is actual divine magic in the setting.

1. Unless someone wants to correct me, I'm 99% sure the beta PDF is no longer available and won't be. You should still get the discount on the release PDF if you bought it through a site that gave that deal (DriveThruRPG, e.g.)

2. Have you played Only War? It's a lot like only war. They rolled back almost all of the substantive changes from the original beta, and the final state of the beta was mechanically almost exactly the same as Only War.

The first beta is gone. The second beta can still be downloaded at DriveThru RPG, if you bought it there before.

The reason why people believe in machine spirits is because they're pretty much real. Now, they're not spirits as such, but much of the technology in the Imperium is actually incredibly advanced, created during or stemming from what is considered the peak of human technology and knowing, the Dark Age of Technology.

A lot of things really have some form of really advanced computer technology, whether it's true A.I. or not. There's auto-targeting machines, auto-repairing functions, auto-this and auto-that. This, combined with the fact that almost everything is ritualized, due to the fact that they don't even speak the language the machines were written for to begin with, is the reason the AdMech and the Imperium is what it is.

Combine this with the tenets of the Machine Cult. Life is directed motion. That's the Cult Mechanicus definition of life. The spirit is the spark of life. So, the spirits are what sparks directed motion. Directed motion is life, directed motion is sparked by the spirit. In a nutshell, the programming, but the point stands. This goes on and on and on.

Between the peasantry of the Imperium, the servants of the AdMech and their Magos rulers, there's a mountain of interpretations and varying facts. Some are entirely aware of how things work (at least on a basic level), and may be able to "interact" directly with machine spirits, or even convince them to do what they want (reprogramming, basically). They still have to go through the rituals. Others may be entirely convinced of the reality of machine spirits as supernatural.

I'm not sure what your job is, but look at the modern military in a western state. How many of the grunts have any idea of how anything works, on a fundamental level? Now, imagine the technology being infinitely more advanced, and imagine being surrounded by it at all times. How do you prevent the grunt from ruining the lasgun? You tell him, just like you do in any modern military, to follow the rituals, and perform routine weapons maintenance by set parameters. Now add a cult that preaches that technology is sacred, that research is evil, that humanity has reached the pinnacle of technology once and that everything good can be found in the past, give them a monopoly on technology, and account for the fact that one of their prime tenets is that these things are alive and that they have souls.

Tadaa. Superstition.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Why_Everything_is_so_Grimdark

I've always found it most useful to think of WH40K as medieval Europe in space. Voidships are like castles, space marines are knights, different worlds are essentially like different cities, demons are real and so on. Whenever I find something that challenges my sensibilities, I always fall back to medieval Europe in space, where the superstitious stuff is real.

That being said, I've also put a lot of thought into how and why the machine spirit stuff is in there. The conclusion I came to is power. The ecclesiarchy and the inquisition are arguably the two most powerful institutions in the Imperium. Because apparently Earth (Terra) is unable to produce anything anymore, they relied on Mars to make stuff, or at least at the levels required in the beginning. If you've read any of the Horus Heresy books, you know what happens to worlds that resisted the Emperor, and now his Empire. I am of the opinion that the early mechanicus were not fools, saw the writing on the wall and said to themselves "There's an angle we can use here. We can make them need us." They must have decided that if they convinced enough people that machines had spirits that only they could communicate with and appease, they could retain most of their power. If you can't beat them, join them. Very Machiavellian, very medieval. The next 10,000 years has been essentially a song and dance for them. Keep on mind most worlds are similar to ours, and there are some people who intuitively understand how machines work, and others who seem incapable of changing their own blinker fluid. Add in the superstition rammed down people's throats from the ecclesiarchy on the other end, and sure, why not? Check out the Milgram obedience experiment for more on that.

From a practical standpoint, there is some sense to the 'machine spirit' that the uninitiated might believe. Some machines and devices are simply engineered better. Some machines are easier to use and work on than others. Perhaps they have relatively benign spirits. Something incomprehensibly complicated, like a Titan, which is not possible for our modern society to produce, likely have very belligerent spirits because of their complexity. The more systems there are, the more components necessary, the more careful calibration and attention are necessary to maintain the end item in working order. Especially when different types of systems are incorporated, and interact. Compressed air is often used to control hydraulic systems, for example, or electronics might work, but if the software is having a fit, whatever machine you're using is only worth it's weight in scrap.

Additionally, many of the things we do could be considered ritualistic, especially around technology. Turning on your computer, logging in to your email, remember what those were like in the early Windows and DOS days? Much more laborious than today, but there has always been a hint at steampunk in all 40K stuff anyway. Besides, if you put my brain in a jar and installed 'me' into a 500lb computer ran by vacuum tubes, I might be a little irritable, and might need some coaxing to get help from as well. I might not want to do a google search right after you wake me up at whatever time it is, because I don't have eyes or any other sensory organ to tell me when I'm supposed to be on a rest cycle, I'm part of the hardware.

@fgdsfg; I'm not sure what your job is, but I am curious now. I am a reservist in one of those western militaries, and I'm just curious as to what exactly you think we do or don't understand. You failed to answer your own question. In western militaries, the voluntary nature of recruitment means that only a very very small percentage of citizens ever serve. In the U.S., it's 1% of the total population. That number increases to 4% when you include all uniformed public servants (police, fire, paramedics, prison guards, postal workers, etc.). Given those small numbers of people who have any first hand understanding what 'grunts' do and don't know, that question cannot be rhetorical, even if you have personal experience with it.

DTRPG is fixing the beta access problem.

As far as the rest, thank you. That gives me noms for thought.

The reason why people believe in machine spirits is because they're pretty much real. Now, they're not spirits as such, but much of the technology in the Imperium is actually incredibly advanced, created during or stemming from what is considered the peak of human technology and knowing, the Dark Age of Technology.

A lot of things really have some form of really advanced computer technology, whether it's true A.I. or not. There's auto-targeting machines, auto-repairing functions, auto-this and auto-that. This, combined with the fact that almost everything is ritualized, due to the fact that they don't even speak the language the machines were written for to begin with, is the reason the AdMech and the Imperium is what it is.

Combine this with the tenets of the Machine Cult. Life is directed motion. That's the Cult Mechanicus definition of life. The spirit is the spark of life. So, the spirits are what sparks directed motion. Directed motion is life, directed motion is sparked by the spirit. In a nutshell, the programming, but the point stands. This goes on and on and on.

Between the peasantry of the Imperium, the servants of the AdMech and their Magos rulers, there's a mountain of interpretations and varying facts. Some are entirely aware of how things work (at least on a basic level), and may be able to "interact" directly with machine spirits, or even convince them to do what they want (reprogramming, basically). They still have to go through the rituals. Others may be entirely convinced of the reality of machine spirits as supernatural.

I'm not sure what your job is, but look at the modern military in a western state. How many of the grunts have any idea of how anything works, on a fundamental level? Now, imagine the technology being infinitely more advanced, and imagine being surrounded by it at all times. How do you prevent the grunt from ruining the lasgun? You tell him, just like you do in any modern military, to follow the rituals, and perform routine weapons maintenance by set parameters. Now add a cult that preaches that technology is sacred, that research is evil, that humanity has reached the pinnacle of technology once and that everything good can be found in the past, give them a monopoly on technology, and account for the fact that one of their prime tenets is that these things are alive and that they have souls.

Tadaa. Superstition.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Why_Everything_is_so_Grimdark

I really like when they do this with lasguns/ boltguns or other "simple" items. If you dont clean and take good care of them you'll upset its spirit and it will refuse to function. No it's because your gun's dirty and you broke that it no longer shoots!

I think the Tau just constantly facepalm when they discuss the imperium amongst themselves.

Somehow ork mekaniaks are better than the mechanicus, at least they are willing to invent and adjust things. Never mind that their technolgy is genticaly stored race-memory and powered by their pyshic field of "it work becuz i believe it works"

Ork supersitions actualy work (red unz go fasta!)