I've been reading (and contributing to) this forum for a while now, and have lapped up the discussions on 'the meta', and MajorJuggler's reports.

However, I'm not actually experienced this Phantom vs. Falcon high that we're all supposed to be on in my local scene. In the past few months, I've played just two games in which there was a Phantom, and two games that had a Falcon (the games at home after I just got my Falcon notwithstanding). One of these games had both - so three games in total, and I was flying the Falcon in response to the Phantom because I heard that that was the thing to do. (It was; I slaughtered the Phantom.)

But, in my local scene I'm seeing a lot of Z-95s and E-Wings, and a few Defenders and Phantoms, but it's not the Phantom vs. Falcon craze that everyone is talking about.

So, do I just live in a peculiar place, or is this 'meta' that everyone speaks of just something that is salient at the highest levels?

Meh... I just play what I love.

I enjoy the more intelligent post by seasoned Wingers talking about what works on a particular ship, but beyond these general good game tips ;I care almost zero for what I am supposed to do based on meta-trends.

Meh... I just play what I love.

I enjoy the more intelligent post by seasoned Wingers talking about what works on a particular ship, but beyond these general good game tips ;I care almost zero for what I am supposed to do based on meta-trends.

I concur 100%; I play what I enjoy rather than what is considered to be the most "broken".

Meh... I just play what I love.

I enjoy the more intelligent post by seasoned Wingers talking about what works on a particular ship, but beyond these general good game tips ;I care almost zero for what I am supposed to do based on meta-trends.

Exactly! I like to have fun flying stuff. I'm just not going to do the Phantom, and the Falcon (while looking awesome) is just not so much fun to fly.

Really?

I actualy loved flying echo. She just has so many choices.

However my buddies feel the opposite when playing against her, so for now I just fly other things.

If I want to user her I'll user her on vassal

I am going to run a squad of three Butt-slap-Phantoms in; glorious, marvelous, MF'n incredible real Star Wars EPIC games.

No advanced cloaks or stedg-um-fidge-ums to be found...nope none.

I think you're dealing with Hipster Mentality. Specifically an area where playing "Metagame Lists" is seen as cheap. I loathe this mentality. There's no such thing as a broken list in this game.

Mumble grumble mumble grumble, I like playing Phantoms, they're fun. I like playing against Phantoms, they're an easy to counter challenge.

The meta is less about specific locales and more about the overall picture. You could play in an FLGS that doesn't match the meta at all, but the larger meta picture will still remain. It helps to know the meta if you're engaging in tournaments that pull from multiple FLGSs because it will be prevalent over the many small data points.

However, most advice is always the same. Fly what you know, fly what you love.

Yup and a squad of three is real fun.

We are nude, we are sexy, we run behind our brothers, we bite so hard after our brothers have jumped on you, we are Phantoms!

I think a lot of this Meta stuff has more to do with what people bring to tournaments. When I go to my LGS during regular league nights, we are all playing stuff we like, or are testing something out there. Some players read this and other forums looking for the "best build" then you see the meta get flooded with these squads. These things don't always trickle down to casual play.

In my area the "Meta" has a lot of players flying Chewie and some kind of support. There are a few people flying just one support ship. Last year at a tournament I really did not know what I would be flying against, but now it is going to be Chewie. As an Imperial player the new meta has made my list building very easy. Build a generic list that can put down Chewie and I am set up very well for any tourney. In the new meta my win ratio is up although having to fly against a YT in every other game gets a little boring. There are a Echo players in my area and I really like flying against that ship. The crazy places that ship can end up in are amazing.

Considering all the cool ships in Xwing right now the "Meta" is like walking into an ice cream parlor with a hundred flavors and only ordering vanilla.

I think you're dealing with Hipster Mentality. Specifically an area where playing "Metagame Lists" is seen as cheap.

You're right. If I walk into a LGS with a Chewie, 3CPO, 3 Bandit squad list, I'm sure there's a godo chance that any win would be considered tainted because I brought a netlist.

But that's not really fair, I may of had that idea before I even saw it on the net, it's not like there's so many combos in X-Wing that 2 or more people can't come up with the same idea. Even if I did, I'm still the one who flew it.

I guess this kind of brings up a larger question. Is it the List or is it the Pilot?

I think you're dealing with Hipster Mentality. Specifically an area where playing "Metagame Lists" is seen as cheap.

You're right. If I walk into a LGS with a Chewie, 3CPO, 3 Bandit squad list, I'm sure there's a godo chance that any win would be considered tainted because I brought a netlist.

But that's not really fair, I may of had that idea before I even saw it on the net, it's not like there's so many combos in X-Wing that 2 or more people can't come up with the same idea. Even if I did, I'm still the one who flew it.

I guess this kind of brings up a larger question. Is it the List or is it the Pilot?

I completely sympathize, I honestly thought I created the five naked scimitar with howlrunner swarm tactics list until someone said, nope, someone already won with that one on Vassal, and I was like, whats Vassal? A fellow player at my LGS even came up with a cheeky name for it, The Winchester. Well, there's no such thing as an original idea, right?

So, do I just live in a peculiar place, or is this 'meta' that everyone speaks of just something that is salient at the highest levels?

I think you've nailed it, right here. The 'meta' is only salient at the Store Championship level or above. Everything else at my LGS at least, is either casual novelty or hey I'm prepping/learning how to fly this competitive list, mind if I try it out?

I'm not seeing a trend toward Echo-based or Chewie-based squads locally, although Phantoms and YTs show up once in a while. We all seem to be experimenting with different squads every week, and we seem to instinctively avoid mirror matches, which pretty much throws the meta right out. That may change as our local group grows and becomes more seasoned.

I'm probably one of the more dedicated and informed X-Wing players around here, and I still haven't run Echo or Chewie. It's good to know the global meta and all the theory and stats that go into it, but I have more fun playing squads I've cobbled together on my own in the couple of hours before play time, regardless of how they perform.

The meta is less about specific locales and more about the overall picture. You could play in an FLGS that doesn't match the meta at all, but the larger meta picture will still remain. It helps to know the meta if you're engaging in tournaments that pull from multiple FLGSs because it will be prevalent over the many small data points.

However, most advice is always the same. Fly what you know, fly what you love.

Good advice about knowing the "meta" if you're attending tournaments. I would also add that even if you know the meta there is still a good chance you may not face any of the current super lists. When I went to Georgia for the regional I was most concerned about phantoms and Super Chewie lists. I didn't face a single one all day. Granted I didn't do so hot (three hour ride down the day of, I was already tired by round 3, I will not be doing that again, next time I will be coming down the night before and getting a hotel room).

I think you're dealing with Hipster Mentality. Specifically an area where playing "Metagame Lists" is seen as cheap. I loathe this mentality. There's no such thing as a broken list in this game.

Mumble grumble mumble grumble, I like playing Phantoms, they're fun. I like playing against Phantoms, they're an easy to counter challenge.

Wanting to play a list you made yourself rather than getting your squad composition off of the internet isn't "hipster mentality."

The assumption that everyone is missing about meta is this:

Given that you are capable and willing to fly any list, which list has the most competitive advantage versus an expected playing field where you NEED to expect something.

This then has the assumption that the tournament in question has high enough stakes to warrant the seriousness of the list pick and the level of ability of a player that can play all lists equally well.

Lets take two examples:

- Magic casual and Premier tournaments: Casual weekly tournaments award a prize pool approximately of $20, for an entry fee of $5, for a list cost of ~$200-400. Level of commitment: medium. Player skill: medium. Modest number of players. Some good who get into top 4, and some decent who can eke out a profit at top8.

Premier tournament: most recent Grand Prix Boston, 1st prize: $4000, entry: $40. Player skill: highly competitive. For this level of tournament, for sure you will see use of metagaming. Because it matters. Because the player skill here is so high that even a small advantage of list is useful. Many many many players.

- Starcraft tournaments:

Casual: no prize. Player skill: high. Players are learning to emulate the best builds, but skill matters more here. There are too many players out there, competition is fierce, learning best lists required.

North America: Player skill: relatively professional. Around $5-10k prize. Lists here see variation, as these players are statistically slower than the top Korean professionals. Slight innovation with high skill leads to unpredicability.

Korea World Championship: Player skill: dedicated teamed professionals who play for 10 hours a day for 6+ years. Metagaming here is high. Variance in lists are extreme to capitalize on list strengths and are executed down to a 1 to 2 second difference over the course of 10 minutes. (teamliquid.net has the study and statistics of korean players vs non-korean players). Prize pool: $100,000.

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so in effect, all of the thing about "my local meta is this" "i dont care about meta" "does it matter? I'm gonna fly my favorite" are irrelevant. they come from an angle where these people are not the target market anyway for the meta.

This doesnt mean you shouldn state your opinion, its also good for the rest of the people to know how many people will simply fly brew lists versus meta lists. this helps reinforce the meta.

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If you dont care about the meta, it probably doesnt affect you. Or you're good enough that any small advantages from X-wing lists can be recouped by your difference in skill with your opponent. Or the stakes aren't high enough to make it matter.

Let it be.

Another thing to note is the influence of the American/Western mindset. Individuality is of heightened, unparalleled importance to the common person in this culture. "Small, free, rebelling, quirky, characteristic, me, my [freedom of thought]" vs "authoritative, large group, collective wisdom, collective good".

sound a little like the main premise of star wars? That's one of the greatest aspects of cultural association star wars did in pandering to a fundamental aspect of the American Hollywood audience.

Unfortunately, at the societal level, its very easy to see the repercussions of this American mindset at work:

Our international magazines have "silly" and domestic issues from and cover instead of international news.

We see little ability to create societal systems that are mutually beneficial, versus a war of interest group conflict.

Our unshakable belief systems

Our unshakable thoughts/beliefs in the face of facts and rational argument.

(Know a super liberal? How about a super conservative? Ever tried to convince them of something? It doesn't work.)

Studies interestingly show that it doesn;t matter what method you try to use to convince someone of anything, either stories, emotional, artistic, direct, rational methods, most people in America just do not change their beliefs.

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Being "above" the consideration of meta is something akin to this individualistic streak in Americans/Westerners. It mostly says: "Results be damned, I'm going to do what I want, and I dare you to stop me."

This is in contrast to games played in the Asia region where understanding the meta-game and understanding the traditional wisdom/information is more valued. Then, after knowing this, innovate.

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All that said. I personally love brewing and playing my own list. =) But I do it with the intent of it being fun or being good.

The assumption that everyone is missing about meta is this:

Given that you are capable and willing to fly any list, which list has the most competitive advantage versus an expected playing field where you NEED to expect something.

...

If you dont care about the meta, it probably doesnt affect you. Or you're good enough that any small advantages from X-wing lists can be recouped by your difference in skill with your opponent. Or the stakes aren't high enough to make it matter.

Let it be.

Dude, I ain't missing jack.

Despite the title, I'm not attacking the meta or those who calculate or comment on it. I find how the meta develops fascinating. I'm just saying that I'm not really witnessing it in my area. Now, maybe that's Aminar's 'hipster mentality', but that hipster mentality is my gaming environment - it's the local meta, if you will.

The point is, that the meta is intersubjectively constructed, it isn't 'given' by the spectrum of choices available. In my area, the choices people make does not reflect that the global meta is supposed to be. That calls into question the salience of the global meta.

Another thing to note is the influence of the American/Western mindset. Individuality is of heightened, unparalleled importance to the common person in this culture. "Small, free, rebelling, quirky, characteristic, me, my [freedom of thought]" vs "authoritative, large group, collective wisdom, collective good".

While I find cultural analyses fascinating (as well as frequently erroneous), if what you're saying is true - then it only supports my argument that an objective understanding of the meta is less salient than it is held to be.

Sorry Mikael, I'm not actually trying to address you in particular: just various others who have this type of thought. Also, I hold a rather high regard for your posts here. I like the thought you put into them.

Yeah. There is a lot to be said for metagaming your local meta too.

I think its mostly going to be a problem of information speed at this point. Magic did not develop a highly net-decking meta until a few years ago when not only did we have the internet, but also multiple aggregate sites that had data on hundreds of local level tournaments also.

This pushed the speed and availability of results past the threshold where the information could be easily found and easily utilized.

That would be my point against the idea that the meta-game is simply wishful collective wisdom.

As far as we are along in X-wing, I think there are a few (Major Juggler's work) of aggregating sites for X-wing. Not two handfuls or more.

Sorry Mikael, I'm not actually trying to address you in particular: just various others who have this type of thought. Also, I hold a rather high regard for your posts here. I like the thought you put into them.

Yeah. There is a lot to be said for metagaming your local meta too.

I think its mostly going to be a problem of information speed at this point. Magic did not develop a highly net-decking meta until a few years ago when not only did we have the internet, but also multiple aggregate sites that had data on hundreds of local level tournaments also.

This pushed the speed and availability of results past the threshold where the information could be easily found and easily utilized.

That would be my point against the idea that the meta-game is simply wishful collective wisdom.

As far as we are along in X-wing, I think there are a few (Major Juggler's work) of aggregating sites for X-wing. Not two handfuls or more.

I would challenge this point greatly. I started playing Magic in 95 when I was 13. We didn't have a computer in the house and even I was still very aware of the meta at that time.

Well, its not that it didn't exist. its that the entry level, medium/low skill tournament players on average probably wouldnt know.

I'm guessing here based on information I've read off tcgplayer about the evolution of netdecking in the last few years as I did not play Magic then.

Also, it was a smaller total market/group who played Magic at all and Magic tournaments in those days.

Also, your choices were fewer boogeymen back then. just prominent ones, like necropotence or affinity, etc.

Can I just say... I absolutely hate the term "meta"... Meta is nothing more than strategy, plain and simple. I play poker and I know Bill bluffs a lot, well my strategy against Bill will be wait until I have a strong hand, slow play him, wait until he bluffs and then drop the hammer. This is called strategy, not meta or any other "super" word people want to attach to a normal thought process.

Receiving intel, fomulating a strategy based on said intel, and then applying it is nothing new and we dont need another term for it. I think some people use the word meta to describe elite builds and such... and if they do, they are using the word incorrectly lol.

The assumption that everyone is missing about meta is this:

Given that you are capable and willing to fly any list, which list has the most competitive advantage versus an expected playing field where you NEED to expect something.

This then has the assumption that the tournament in question has high enough stakes to warrant the seriousness of the list pick and the level of ability of a player that can play all lists equally well.

And now you need to be paying me at least $10 an hour with a two hour paid lunch break and don't forget my 20% off discount on all purchases because I am no longer playing a game that has so much about it for me to enjoy and to love... no, oh no... Hell-Nah... now I am at work.

Now you got me in here with the schmuck-ass-former40k-dope-headed-bionic-space-gyrenes... and I have just got to stay on target... all day!

*****-DAT!!!

BOO!

Hiss, Hiss, Hiss!