Good day.

Per the faq:

If my opponent’s Stygian Eye (Ancient Relics
F96) leaves play and I have a Snow Graves
(Forgotten Lore F15) attached to his discard
pile does this prevent Stygian Eye from being
shuffled back into his deck?
Yes it does. Stygian Eye reads, “After
Stygian Eye leaves play, shuffle it into its
owner’s deck.” Since the passive effect
does not initiate until after it has left
play it must be placed in the discard pile.
Snow Graves reads, “Cards cannot be
moved out of attached discard pile for
any reason.” This prevents Stygian Eye’s
passive from being able to resolve.

So, what happens in the case between:

1. Snow Graves and Pay Tribute ? Let's say that Snow Graves is attached to my discard pile and I play Pay Tribute. Does it go on the bottom of my deck, or does it get stuck in my discard pile?

2. Snow Graves and Isaac Miles ? Let's day that Snow Graves is attached to my discard pile and Isaac is in play on my behalf. A character of mine is supposed to hit my discard pile. Where does he end up? Is the answer the same as the above or does Isaac's ability implies that it's a substitute effect we 're dealing with here and the character evades the discard pile altogether?

3. Snow Graves and Immurement ? Let's day that Snow Graves is attached to my opponent's discard pile and I play Immurement to target a support of his. Where does the support go? The wording "leaves play" is not mentioned here, so does this mean that the support gets attached to one of his domains?

Thank you.

Hey there, Serazu. You're asking good - that is to say 'challenging' - questions! I'll give you my interpretation of the rules, but if you want to be absolutely certain feel free to use the 'Rules Question' option in the fine print at the bottom of this page to get an official answer... and then you can let us know if I got it right.

So, what happens in the case between:

1. Snow Graves and Pay Tribute ? Let's say that Snow Graves is attached to my discard pile and I play Pay Tribute. Does it go on the bottom of my deck, or does it get stuck in my discard pile?

It works like this:

When you play an event it goes into a limbo where it is neither in play nor out of play, where its effect is resolved. After resolution, the event then leaves play and goes to the discard pile. (See this discussion for further clarification.)

With 'Pay Tribute', part of its effect is to "then put this card on the bottom of your deck", so this occurs during effect resolution, before it would normally leave play - and therefore never reaches the discard pile to be affected by Snow Graves.

2. Snow Graves and Isaac Miles ? Let's day that Snow Graves is attached to my discard pile and Isaac is in play on my behalf. A character of mine is supposed to hit my discard pile. Where does he end up? Is the answer the same as the above or does Isaac's ability implies that it's a substitute effect we 're dealing with here and the character evades the discard pile altogether?

At least, that's what I've been led to believe. But from what I've also been told I actually suspect that cards with passive effects like Isaac Miles' or Forgotten Shoggoth 's don't actually work - unless we claim the Golden Rule!

Here's how I believe it (fails to) work:

As per the Timing Structure section in the FAQ, it goes like this --

1. Framework Action / Action is initiated

2. Disrupts

3. Framework Action / Action is executed - generally it's here that a character dies from taking a wound in Combat or from some other effect, and after doing so the character leaves play and goes to the discard pile

4. Passive abilities are initiated - here is where Isaac Miles' ability kicks in, but by now it's actually too late to do anything!?

(Coincidentally I've been having an email discussion with Damon Stone from FFG about how it is that cards with "would be put into the discard pile" like these manage to avoid the discard pile, while cards with "after ... leaves play" such as Relics like 'Stygian Eye' do not as per the FAQ question you posted. I'll be sure to share the full conversation, which should clear up the above, when I get a final answer.)

3. Snow Graves and Immurement ? Let's day that Snow Graves is attached to my opponent's discard pile and I play Immurement to target a support of his. Where does the support go? The wording "leaves play" is not mentioned here, so does this mean that the support gets attached to one of his domains?

Immurement works for the same reason as Pay Tribute, above.

For me it's pretty clear. None of these cards are affected by Snow Graves in any way. It affects Relic cards (such as Stygian Eye), because their timing means, they enter the discard shortly before they're returned to the deck (it's a passive using the text ' after ... leaves play').

Isaac Miles apparently needs errata: Snow Graves or no, his ability cannot work if it's passive. It has to be a Disrupt in order to work as intended. If you search for other cards with replacement effects (text containing 'instead'), you'll note they're all either disrupts (e.g. Julia Brown) or happen within the same timeframe as another effect (e.g. Blind Fighting), or (rarely) have an effect that is not affected by timing (e.g. Chess Prodigy) - although I'd argue in the latter case it would almost always have been more clear if it was a Disrupt effect instead.

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1283615553/gallery_43_51563.jpg

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1287540757/gallery_62_112191.jpg

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1283868756/gallery_44_395161.jpg

Thank you for your answers, guys. My thesis too is that all three cards bypass Snow Graves, Pay Tribute and Immurement because their final destination is part of their effect, and Isaac because he creates a substitute effect, but I'll ask the DT and let you know.

Ok, I asked Damon the same questions concluding with:

My thesis is that all three cards bypass Snow Graves, Pay Tribute and Immurement because their final destination is part of their effect, and Isaac because he creates a substitute effect, but I may be wrong in this.

His reply:

You are not wrong.

Thanks again to everyone involved!

Thanks for reporting back, Serazu!

Feel free to add your question and Damon's response to the You've Got Questions? I've Got Answers - Straight From Damon Stone thread, too.