I haven't played Echo, but with PS8 i am not particulary scared. I had played a lot with and against whisper, and eventually you know where he is gonna land most part of the time. The only list that could allow to be more impredictable is the one whisper + Yorr.

If you could guess where Whisper will be for most of the time, then your opponent doesn't know how to fly a Phantom very well.

Nah. The very first game I used Echo, he was 1-shot at range 3 through an asteroid by a B-wing (6 defense dice vs 3 attack dice). Two hits and a direct-hit crit. Rolled blank, blank, blank, blank, focus, focus on defense, and had already spent focus on offense because, and I quote, "there's no way you're going to 1 shot me". Famous last words.

Do not taunt the green dice. They are sentient, and they have a serious inferiority complex.

I haven't played Echo, but with PS8 i am not particulary scared. I had played a lot with and against whisper, and eventually you know where he is gonna land most part of the time. The only list that could allow to be more impredictable is the one whisper + Yorr.

If you could guess where Whisper will be for most of the time, then your opponent doesn't know how to fly a Phantom very well.

I had played the phantom quite a lot myself. That's why. There are not really that many movements when you have to assure that you are getting into shooting position. Truth be spoken, i always play with some PS9 or 10. Not knowing where something is going to land makes phantoms very sad.

Curses that didn't work. My post was that I feel your pain with the green dice. Epic game last night all ships gone apart from the front of the CR 90 with 2 hull left and me with Soontir at full hull. Opponent rolled 4 hits after a tgt lock. I had focus and an evade, rolled 6 blanks!!! Game over. Needless to say I may well be in the market for some new green dice as I sacrifice mine to the dice gods.

No.

Well I admit flyin against echo is tough.

Though I don't think she is broken. The advance cloak maybe I could say border lines it.

If she was to be unable to be dealt with. If every game she was in won. Then maybe I'd consider the fact

I've been saying that ffg is trying to break away from the norm that had developed. Swarms. Lists with sheer numbers over high ps.

People see a list that works and it becomes a popular list, like xxbb.

Phantoms make a player to decide if they should break there formation. If you stay in a box formation you'll get picked apart.

Split one or two high ps ships to give her a run for her money.

But I hear others who say that having such a free range of movement, and able to roll 4-5 dice and recloak with 4-5 evade dice say it's broken

Every list imo has its strengths and weaknesses. A list with a Phantom has strength, but weakness as well. A Han shoots first list, any turret ship with Roark beside them, any stress givers which e are seeing more and more of are all weaknesses to phantom.

With the points cost for a Phantom If it dies early the player is at a major disadvantage. The point cost is fair for what you get.

Plus when you look at the dice. Not counting focus the green dice have a 3/8 chance to succeed. Can't rely on the evade dice which is what some do.

Plus it's not like we haven't seen ships shooting with 4-6 attack dice

A bwing with opportunist beside Jan can roll 6 dice at range 2-3 and the defender gets no range modifier.

Sure it doesn't have the flexibility, but that still hurts, but it does have more HP.

Same can be said with a defender, Firespray, and shuttle.

I think ffg wants to see a meta shift. Away from the typical build that seen to have been dominating

No.

Please thank Sithborg, the guest host of today's episode of Short Answers to Simple Questions! Tune in next time...

Echo and the phantom in general are utterly broken. FFG completely screwed this up, and I suspect it's because they thought the phantom was going to be used to lurk around the edge of the fight and only decloak every few turns to take a shot at a vulnerable target. And in that context decloaking is reasonable, after a few turns of maneuvering it turns out that your target wasn't exactly where you thought it was. But in reality the most valuable part of cloaking isn't the defense dice, it's the ability to make a decloaking move every single turn, creating a ship that is faster and more maneuverable than a TIE interceptor. And this is broken for two reasons:

1) Incredibly frustrating games if you take anything lower than PS 8-9 in your list. Getting a shot on a phantom with a lower-PS ship is pretty much impossible without blind luck, the range of possible ending points for their maneuver is just too large to cover all of it and they get to pick most of their move after you're committed to yours. Arc dodging was bad enough with high-PS interceptors, the phantom does all of that but with better firepower AND better maneuverability AND better defense just in case you screw up.

2) More turrets. The result of #1 isn't people spending countless hours practicing anti-phantom tactics and figuring out how to out-fly the phantom with their existing lists, it's "screw this, I'm taking a Falcon". Turrets are a necessary part of the game, but when they dominate the metagame it's a lot less fun. And it's not really fun to feel like you're crippling yourself if you don't spend 50+ points of your list on a Falcon.

1) Incredibly frustrating games if you take anything lower than PS 8-9 in your list. Getting a shot on a phantom with a lower-PS ship is pretty much impossible without blind luck, the range of possible ending points for their maneuver is just too large to cover all of it and they get to pick most of their move after you're committed to yours. Arc dodging was bad enough with high-PS interceptors, the phantom does all of that but with better firepower AND better maneuverability AND better defense just in case you screw up.

And pays 40 odd points for it. 10 points per hit point.

If you take everything lower, sure. If you're stuck in the old meta then the phantom will shred you, that's what it was made to do. Plus, there are plenty of ways to deal with a phantom even with lower PS. Roark's just 19 points and gives you some slots to play with for other roles too. Flechette Torpedoes doesn't need to hit, in fact if you have Failsafe it can be better if you don't, using the phantom's agility against it. The Empire has Fel and bombs, and the VT-49 lets them play Falcon too.

they get to pick most of their move after you're committed to yours.

Whisper has three decloak options, guess the one she's going for and block it. You force a suboptimal move from the phantom. Harder with Echo but a phantom usually has planned which decloak to pair with its maneuver. Block it and you throw the phantom off. Plus Echo caps at 8 PS and thus is easy picking for PS9.

2) More turrets. The result of #1 isn't people spending countless hours practicing anti-phantom tactics and figuring out how to out-fly the phantom with their existing lists, it's "screw this, I'm taking a Falcon". Turrets are a necessary part of the game, but when they dominate the metagame it's a lot less fun. And it's not really fun to feel like you're crippling yourself if you don't spend 50+ points of your list on a Falcon.

Take antiturret, ie: maximum firepower. Everyone going Falcon? Go Proton Rocket, Rebel Aces isn't far off.

Then there's the TIE defender, Brath HLC in particular is a vicious Falcon counter: that large HP pool is almost a liability when it's full of crits. If it's a two list meta it's not too hard to build to beat both. As with all games like this there's a sizable netdecker herd who's main weakness is predictability.

Nowhere near broken. You get a good shot at them and pop!

That's what happened to me yesterday. I went up against Wedge, Corran, and Biggs with Whisper (VI, RS, ACD) and 3x Black Squadrons w/ Predator and HU. After doing a grand total of one damage to enemy ships, I lost my Phantom in the first round of shooting when Corran took a second shot that round, even though it was cloaked.

Believe it or not, though, I managed to take out all three of his ships with my 3 TIE Fighters to take the tournament win!

The Phantom is well balanced as is. No version of it is overpowered. It is meta shaking, but that was the intention. Too many low pilot skill lists led to this. Too many AP's, Blues, and Rookies out there until now. Now people are having to think about more than getting the most red dice and HP possible. Good Interceptor lists are great against the phantom. High PS rebels are more of a thing. Turrets are more of a big deal, and not just the gold squads with ion turrets. Falcons may be the go to in this meta since the release of C3PO, but truthfully the phantoms have enough firepower to destroy them if flown well. Etan may be the most broken thing out there right now and will be earth shaking in Epic play. The really great thing about right now is there is no obviously best thing that you can just roll out and expect to have an advantage with. Flying ability is trumping list making right now and that is the way it should be. A slight tweak to the advanced and everything will be about perfect if you ask me. I can't see how they could do a much better job of balancing this game.

No. Phantoms die to blanks as easily as anything else...

Want to know what's broken? Having something like this following Chewbacca around while stealthed.

Sigma Squadron Pilot/TIE Phantom + Saboteur + Stealth Device

You have 5 defense dice and an evade or focus vs 4 attack dice at range 1. And, if you have enough of a harassment list, the walking carpet will have to choose between the mosquito and the wasps. The only problem is that there is a high probability that the mosquito will kill the YT before anyone can do anything to stop it.

But, imagine this little ship against other ships…

No. Phantoms die to blanks as easily as anything else...

I don't argue this but when I say this then others say that the problem is you hardly get a shot since they can change their coarse.

Flying ability is trumping list making right now and that is the way it should be.

But it's not. TURRETS are trumping list making ability. Why invest skill into out-maneuvering the phantom when you can just kill it with a turret?

Want to know what's broken? Having something like this following Chewbacca around while stealthed.

Sigma Squadron Pilot/TIE Phantom + Saboteur + Stealth Device

That's not even close to broken. Spending those points on conventional ships and shooting the Falcon to death is a much more effective way of killing it.

Also wanted to add Phantoms will not be perceived as "OP" when Rebel Aces and Wave 5 come out. Nera Daniels and Proton Rockets will surely make Phantoms second guess their every decloak.

But it's not. TURRETS are trumping list making ability. Why invest skill into out-maneuvering the phantom when you can just kill it with a turret?

Because you have to pay for that turret, making you more vunerable to non-phantoms.

Nera Dantels and Proton Rockets????

I think he means Proton Torpedoes.

Nera Dantels and Proton Rockets??

Two independent things. Nera Dantels is another turret ship and therefore an obvious phantom counter. Not sure how proton rockets are supposed to do anything though.

Because you have to pay for that turret, making you more vunerable to non-phantoms.

This would be a valid point if turrets were some kind of niche weapon that only really counters phantoms. It's not really a good argument in the real game, where Falcon lists are already extremely strong and really didn't need a boost.

Flying ability is trumping list making right now and that is the way it should be.

But it's not. TURRETS are trumping list making ability. Why invest skill into out-maneuvering the phantom when you can just kill it with a turret?

If you are really having that many problems with turrets than maybe the phantom isn't for you? I use my phantoms like a submarine captain. Take the prime shot and then survive, re position for the next shot under cloak and then take the shot ad disappear again. If the only way you have tried using te phantom is as a battering ram with ACD and VI then you need to broaden your pallet. It works great that way if your opponent isnt using countermeasures but truthfully who isn't anymore? In my meta nobody uses VI on their phantoms anymore because the PS of lists has gotten so high that it is wasted points.5 points for ACD and VI on a ship that is shot at by multiple ships before it gets to recloak is a waste of points. Phantoms are viable without ACD and VI. Reevaluate your flying style, build, or both and give it another shot, or don't and just try something else that hurts turrets more like HC defenders.

Nera Dantels and Proton Rockets??

Two independent things. Nera Dantels is another turret ship and therefore an obvious phantom counter. Not sure how proton rockets are supposed to do anything though.

I don't think either are particuarly amazing Phantom Counters. Especially Proton Rockets.

I've come to the conclusion that the ship borders on broken when taking into account ACD. What side of the border I'm not sure.

It certainly has scared the crap out of the meta scene.

I just wish people would stop using Nera as an example. 1 or 2 shots outside the arc does not a turret make. Especially when you take into consideration the additional cost it takes for the munitions. Even with Flechettes, she is not going to be that big of a threat. We are talking about a PS 5 B-wing. Echo and Whisper will sort of laugh at her. Even if Nera can get the target lock after she moves (which isn't very fast remember), Echo and Whisper are likely to shoot first, negating the ideal Flechette shot.

I love Nera, and am excited to use her. But to put her into the same level as the Falcon or Decimator, or even the Outrider, is just blowing her ability out of proportion.

If you are really having that many problems with turrets than maybe the phantom isn't for you?

No, you're missing the point. The problem isn't that turrets counter phantoms and therefore phantoms are too hard to use, it's that a turret-heavy metagame is bad for the game as a whole and the phantom drives people to take turret lists more frequently. Falcon lists were already strong before the phantom existed, and now we're getting into a metagame where so many people have said "screw trying to out-fly this thing, I'm taking a Falcon" that you can expect to go to a tournament and face list after list where the super-turret just ignores all your maneuvering choices.

If you are really having that many problems with turrets than maybe the phantom isn't for you?

No, you're missing the point. The problem isn't that turrets counter phantoms and therefore phantoms are too hard to use, it's that a turret-heavy metagame is bad for the game as a whole and the phantom drives people to take turret lists more frequently. Falcon lists were already strong before the phantom existed, and now we're getting into a metagame where so many people have said "screw trying to out-fly this thing, I'm taking a Falcon" that you can expect to go to a tournament and face list after list where the super-turret just ignores all your maneuvering choices.

First: turrets don't ignore the opponent's maneuvering choices.

Second: if everyone turns to the Falcon out of fear, then that means no one's running the thing everyone's actually afraid of, which creates openings for a lot of other lists. It's not as if HSF is impossibly hard to beat, after all.

Third, or possibly Second-and-a-Half: Everyone believed the TIE swarm was the apex predator among competitive lists. Then Paul Heaver convincingly outflew one with BBXX to win Worlds, and suddenly BBXX was all over the metagame. Everyone believes now that the metagame is Phantoms and Falcons; I wonder what it will be in four weeks or four months?

This would be a valid point if turrets were some kind of niche weapon that only really counters phantoms. It's not really a good argument in the real game, where Falcon lists are already extremely strong and really didn't need a boost.

Half your squad, only three dice. Easy enough to take down if you tailor your squad to it. Everyone's flying turrets, so fly firepower.