Just a debate

I don't think so.

My opinion

What's the majority take on here

Nope.

The phantom is not broken.

None of it's pilots are broken.

The named pilots+VI + ACD needs to be kept at least one eye on. We'll know more after Gen-Con

I'll "Echo" what Rakky Wistol said.

The pilots aren't broken, 4 dice isn't broken, cloaking isn't broken.

ACD however might be questionable, on high PS pilots. But we need to see how things shake out first. Part of the balance on the Phantom is supposed to be the 2 defense dice or no attacking. ACD effectively removes that on a high PS pilot.

It's 4 hp so hit it early and often.

Nowhere near broken. You get a good shot at them and pop!

Advanced proton torpedo on a high ps pilot has a really good chance of destroying echo in one hit. Especially with horn or wedge. I think it's a difficult ship to counter, but for that many points and only 4 hp, it should be difficult to deal with.

No, the only questionably overpowered things in the game right now I think are MAYBE 3p0 + how much the falcon can do now when it is action denied (used to be the way to kill falcons, still works sometimes, but nowhere near as well), and the base 4 on the phantom. But with both of them in the game, they are kinda "balanced" in respect to each other. But that is one of the reasons other squads have been disappearing. Even still, all things considered it's kinda just the standard power creep that seems to happen to games after a couple of years.

Basically everytime there is a phantom complaint I hear "but super falcon so its ok" and everytime someone complains about them I hear "but without them phantoms would be unstoppable so its ok".

No she's fine highly noble but a fragile flower unable to take too much abuse.

It can be pretty crazy, and I agree that PS and ACD combo borders on insane.

Bigger problem: it makes everyone around here just want to fly turrets all the time, which is beginning to lead to a lack of variety.

(Note: I am not a turret hater. I actually like them. It just gets old seeing nothing but turrets and phantoms all the time).

I don't think Echo is broken, but she is very difficult to handle if your squad is < PS8. It's been debated whether or not 4 dice is too much, but I like how it's changed the meta in the sense I don't see swarms everywhere.

Hell no.

And if not for the banking decloak, he'd be too weak imho.

The 4 attack dice I can live with, it's the 4 defense dice I can't. At least with stealth you have a chance to knock it off if you get a hit in. With ACD it's like unlimited stealth.

No because they require (and reward) good piloting. I have more of a problem with Keyan because it not removes one of the game's balancers (stress) but it rewards you for doing so.

However, I'll qualify that by saying I'm reserving judgment as to whether it's broken but I don't think it's good design.

It depends on the person's definition of "broken".

To me Echo is very strong because of the 4 attack dice.
I think it can be mitigated with high PS and turrets!

I am going to use squads of the lower skilled ships more often because I like the ship and want three on the table in Epic games. I see them in this roll as another type of Interceptor. They are slick and have a great attack, so use that and fly them screened by other ships.

The named pilots are fine too, of course, but you really only bring one fully pimped out IMO. I want more of this wonderful ship on the table more often.

Just because you can power it up, that does not mean that you have to power it up.

Nah. The very first game I used Echo, he was 1-shot at range 3 through an asteroid by a B-wing (6 defense dice vs 3 attack dice). Two hits and a direct-hit crit. Rolled blank, blank, blank, blank, focus, focus on defense, and had already spent focus on offense because, and I quote, "there's no way you're going to 1 shot me". Famous last words.

Do not taunt the green dice. They are sentient, and they have a serious inferiority complex.

Yeah, I've one shotted a phantom with Etahn at range one I think. Don't remember if it was cloaked.

Any fully kitted out ship borders on too powerful, due to the way we've all taken to playing the game (lots of low PS ships)

Nope. Too early to call anything broken. If ACD is the issue (and I think most point to that more than even the 4 attack), that can easily be fixed to keep the feel, but ease the butt hurt, such as having the free cloak trigger at the end of the combat phase instead of immediately after the attack. Frankly, I'm not sure ACD is broken yet either. Need way more data and probably need to live with it in a world with the Decimator and YT2400 for awhile first.

High PS Phantom ACD VI is ridiculously good against low PS pilots, which is exactly what it's meant to do: prevent spamming low PS from being dominant. Decloaked phantoms aren't too hard to kill though, a phantom invests ~40% of your squad in 4 HP. You can all but hard counter it with 19 points: Roark Garnet. Any PS9 pilot gets the drop on Echo (Soontir Fel's all but a hard counter) as will any 8 with VI. ACD allows a phantom to never be shot decloaked against lower PS provided it gets a shot and provided it doesn't have a stress token. That's how you fight it.

Also remember phantoms base their moves around decloaking, they choose maneuvers based on where they'll be after decloak. Blocking optimal decloak sites forces them into bad positions and potentially denying them their recloak shot.

Finally, ACD grants a free action. Stress a phantom and it can't recloak. Flechette torpedoes are only 2 points, the stress astromech is only two points. Flechette and Munitions Failsafe is three points and courtesy of the phantom's insane cloaked agility you'll be able to keep those torps for most of the game. Get a stress token on a phantom and you leave it with its lackluster green dial and decloaking (which you can block as it decloaks before moving). Get two stress tokens on a phantom and it's either locked out of cloak or will be if it decloaks this round, either making it very vunerable (as it'll have to green maneuver to shed that stress) or keeping it in cloak and thus not shooting.

Phantoms are also slaves of the whims of the green dice.

Nope. Too early to call anything broken. If ACD is the issue (and I think most point to that more than even the 4 attack), that can easily be fixed to keep the feel, but ease the butt hurt, such as having the free cloak trigger at the end of the combat phase instead of immediately after the attack. Frankly, I'm not sure ACD is broken yet either. Need way more data and probably need to live with it in a world with the Decimator and YT2400 for awhile first.

I mentioned my fix in another thread, but I'll repeat it again as it's sort of like yours.

Basically treat cloak as a stealth device that never goes away.

Meaning: If someone lands a hit on you while cloaked your defense goes back to base stats for the rest of the round (but you don't lose your cloaked status). That way it's still powerful, and really is only a problem if multiple ships are able to shoot at you and the first one is successful at landing a hit.

ACD allows a phantom to never be shot decloaked against lower PS provided it gets a shot and provided it doesn't have a stress token. That's how you fight it.

Compare to Soontir Fel + PTL + Stealth Device + Shield Upgrade, who has:

• The same PS as Whisper + VI
• The same cost as Whisper + VI + Adv Cloaking Device
• The same total hit points as any Phantom
• The same Agility as a cloaked Phantom, until hit
• The same Agility against PS10 as against PS1
• Typically more tokens to modify defense dice (Whisper needs Recon Specialist to get there)

Fel used to give me fits, honestly, until I learned just to fly better--and to make sure all of my lists had secondary weapons with 4+ dice or a way to reliably stack actions on 3 dice. I don't see why, if Fel + PTL wasn't (and isn't) broken, Phantom + ACD should be.

High PS Phantom ACD VI is ridiculously good against low PS pilots, which is exactly what it's meant to do: prevent spamming low PS from being dominant. Decloaked phantoms aren't too hard to kill though, a phantom invests ~40% of your squad in 4 HP. You can all but hard counter it with 19 points: Roark Garnet. Any PS9 pilot gets the drop on Echo (Soontir Fel's all but a hard counter) as will any 8 with VI. ACD allows a phantom to never be shot decloaked against lower PS provided it gets a shot and provided it doesn't have a stress token. That's how you fight it.

Also remember phantoms base their moves around decloaking, they choose maneuvers based on where they'll be after decloak. Blocking optimal decloak sites forces them into bad positions and potentially denying them their recloak shot.

Finally, ACD grants a free action. Stress a phantom and it can't recloak. Flechette torpedoes are only 2 points, the stress astromech is only two points. Flechette and Munitions Failsafe is three points and courtesy of the phantom's insane cloaked agility you'll be able to keep those torps for most of the game. Get a stress token on a phantom and you leave it with its lackluster green dial and decloaking (which you can block as it decloaks before moving). Get two stress tokens on a phantom and it's either locked out of cloak or will be if it decloaks this round, either making it very vunerable (as it'll have to green maneuver to shed that stress) or keeping it in cloak and thus not shooting.

Phantoms are also slaves of the whims of the green dice.

Agree with everything said here. Also wanted to add Phantoms will not be perceived as "OP" when Rebel Aces and Wave 5 come out. Nera Daniels and Proton Rockets will surely make Phantoms second guess their every decloak.

I haven't played Echo, but with PS8 i am not particulary scared. I had played a lot with and against whisper, and eventually you know where he is gonna land most part of the time. The only list that could allow to be more impredictable is the one whisper + Yorr.

Vorpal the comparison isn't fair. The phantom and soontir don't play alike. I had seen people trying to play the phantom like an interceptor, when you want to stay at range 3 with the phantom because with your attack 4 and defensive actions plus FCS + Gunner you can kill pretty much everything at range. The moment a phantom tries to "melee", it is likely that things are going to get ugly for him.

ACD allows a phantom to never be shot decloaked against lower PS provided it gets a shot and provided it doesn't have a stress token. That's how you fight it.

Compare to Soontir Fel + PTL + Stealth Device + Shield Upgrade, who has:

• The same PS as Whisper + VI
• The same cost as Whisper + VI + Adv Cloaking Device
• The same total hit points as any Phantom
• The same Agility as a cloaked Phantom, until hit
• The same Agility against PS10 as against PS1
• Typically more tokens to modify defense dice (Whisper needs Recon Specialist to get there)

Fel used to give me fits, honestly, until I learned just to fly better--and to make sure all of my lists had secondary weapons with 4+ dice or a way to reliably stack actions on 3 dice. I don't see why, if Fel + PTL wasn't (and isn't) broken, Phantom + ACD should be.

The only difference being the extra attack die for the Phantom. IMO, Fel is easier to get shots on even if you have a low PS build. Yes, he could boost/barrel roll to get out of some arcs, but he will eventually get shot at because you could guess the general vacinity where he will land.

Trying to guess where Echo will be is a lost cause, and she'll just dance around your squad without getting return fire part (most?) of the time. Not saying the Phantom is broken, but it definitely makes you adjust what type of build you take to a Premier competition.