Ok nine pages of this is just silly. Executor I believe your problem is not turrets, it is hubris.

that's going to be approx 1/3 of the ships once wave 5 is released.. call me crazy but that's too much invested in 360 arcs in a game based on dogfighting and maneuvering.

Emphasis mine.

Right here you are confusing your desire with the intent of FFG. You are reacting to the turrets, not as if they are well planned additions to the game, but some kind of quality control issue. Seriously, pure hubris. FFG's balance is absurdly good for any game, especially an asymmetrical one.

Nine pages of this is silly, from both sides. Executor has an opinion that is quite obviously not very popular, but everyone badgering him is just perpetuating the argument. There really isn't much else that hasn't already been said, so can't we all just let it go?

Nine pages of this is silly, from both sides. Executor has an opinion that is quite obviously not very popular, but everyone badgering him is just perpetuating the argument. There really isn't much else that hasn't already been said, so can't we all just let it go?

"Boring conversation anyways"-Han Solo

"Sorry, but this is just not correct. Like with any other ship, one with a turret must consider more than just where an opponent might move to block it. Most importantly, it needs to consider where it can move to avoid being shot at, while still getting to fire itself"

you just stated the obvious

that's ideally what everyone wants to accomplish and i figured it didn't need to be stated because it's the most obvious thing that everyone clearly understands.

to achieve an efficient victory is to not get shot at while shooting yourself

but turreted ships have a FAR FAR easier time accomplishing these goals.. especially one as maneuverable as the falcon.. big base or not

classic song, great movie!

classic song, great movie!

And if that doesn't work, I have some lutefisk for good feelings.

The problem isn't that turrets are overpowered.

The problem is that they are boring.

And I don't find this the case at all, I see it as a mind exercise in how to best play your ships. You can't play them like you would against a normal list, instead you must bob and weave between asteroids and keep your range. I personally feel turrets are one of the things that keep me from being bored when playing a interceptor list. But, see that's the thing, not every one finds this to be true, much like you. The concept of boring is all relative to the players that are playing, and their own personal tastes. Because some might *gasp* have fun with turrets!

Last small tournament I went to I faced 3 times Chewbacca/MF/Gunner (twice with C3PO) out of 4 games.

Mind if I think it gets old?

But sure. It just so happens that everyone and their grandmother have a love for specifically the Falcon, usually flown by Chewbacca.

Isn't it weird that these people who 'just love turrets much' never feel the urge to try the Y-wing?

Took two Golds to Worlds, placed top 16. Just saying.

If that is your understanding of turreted ships, then saying you don't know how to fly them is 100% accurate. That would also explain your virulent hatred for them, as I would guess they are inordinately effective against you due to your lack of understanding of how they work. On the other hand, maybe you are just exaggerating and really do have a deeper understanding of the game, at which point you are not really adding substance to the discussion.

I also find it intensely amusing that you believe a Turret ship (any of them) has more freedom of movement than a ship that can, after seeing where its opponents ships have moved, do a 2 bank barrel roll or boost, followed by a maneuver, followed by a barrel roll.

As for winning the Regionals, congratulations. You took what is easily the single most meta-warping ship in the game, added it to a TIE Swarm, and had success. But then you come on FFG's site, and complain about new options that may have the opportunity to reduce the ubiquity of TIE Swarms and/or the insanely effective Phantom? That seems disingenuous, to say the least.

Personally, I dislike the Phantom because it has forced so very, very many Turrets into the meta. I love playing with and against turrets, but that doesn't mean I want to play against them every single game. I have also won tournaments with pure Interceptor lists, even before Imperial Aces, and love the challenge they bring. They are hardly auto-lose against turrets, even HLC turrets. PtL Focus+Evade means you can absorb 2 shots minimum before going pop, and if you are wise enough to fire all your shots at the turret ship you should be able to bring it down quickly enough to create a mismatch between your surviving Interceptors and his surviving escort.

Honestly, every time I see this sort of rant I think the person posting it got lazy. They got so used to doing one trick over and over (seeing where their opponents go, then BR or Boost to get out of arc) that they never learned how to play action advantage in order to bring down big ships. Maybe this applies to you specifically, maybe not, but to be sure it is behind the vast majority of the turret hate to be found.

the iterative process of coming up with a strategy, testing it out, and making changes based on the outcome.

Also known as "fun".

Thank you for getting that stuck my head again. I didn't even play the **** thing and its in my head again.

Thank you for getting that stuck my head again. I didn't even play the **** thing and its in my head again.

Sorry, I just couldn't hold it back anymore.

Thank you for getting that stuck my head again. I didn't even play the **** thing and its in my head again.

Sorry, I just couldn't hold it back anymore.

Do you want to build a snowman? It doesn't have to be a snowman....

Holy moley.

I turn my back for a weekend, and miss World War Internetz.

Just goes to show what happens if you don't stay alert.

...Okay. Executor is neither new, an incompetent player, nor a troll, and admits directly that this whole thread mostly sprang from a need to vent a bit after seeing the new rules for Nera Dantels. If anyone hasn't actually seen her, see below:

The whole outrider thing mostly grew out of other people taking a baton and running with it.

Now, is it just a vent or is it a genuine issue?

Disclaimer: Imperial Player, played in and done okay in events (usually placing ~5-8) but no tournament winner, and like High PS TIE Fighters and TIE Advanced (just so you can take comments into context).

The Outrider is obviously bad news for an interceptor or elite fighter list because a heavy laser that's hard to hide from (please, let's not start 10 pages of wiffle again, just accept 'hard' is not the same as 'impossible' but is also not the same as 'easy').

But I don't really care about that so much; at half a squad's points, it should be as dangerous as multiple snubcraft and it only gets to shoot once, however much punch it packs. Much like the falcon, I imagine it will go down to sufficient loving attention. More importantly, if you want to use it, you have to build a squad around it because of its price. If your squad is 'this one guy plus some escorts' I won't object to that one guy being rather good.

Nera Dantels is a completely different animal; a standard (and popular*) snubfighter class without a turret whose pilot ability lets you add a (limited use) 360 degree arc of fire. So; is it worth it?

Well, she costs 2 points more than a standard Dagger Squadron Pilot, plus the price of torpedoes. If you look at it from this perspective, if you take fletchette torps, she is a 4-point, one use turret, or a 6-point, two use one, that auto-stresses the target.

We're probably in similar territory to if you had the option to put a Blaster Turret (specifically) on a B-wing.

Since I never see B-wings with ordnance** - anyone planning on spending points on secondary weapons tends to pack the heavy laser instead - you're not losing any upgrade slots that matter - systems slot, cannon slot and crew slot (in an /E2) are all still free. Given Fire Control Systems, you may well find yourself with a free target lock anyway - if you get a shot at someone on the initial pass but then lose them in a knife fight, being able to swap to fletchettes for a turn gives you some good protection.

She does also have an extra point of pilot skill, which makes her tempting anyway - PS5 is a nice value because it's just enough to out-shoot any generic pilot short of the Royal Guard, and Daggers have no elite talent which could be used for Veteran Instincts.

In short, I've no idea about the Outrider. I see Han often enough to imagine that you'll see Dash a fair amount too; both have their advantages. But if you think of Nera Dantels as a pocket-change upgrade for a one-use, pretty effective turret on a fighter that was **** popular anyway, I'd expect to see her a lot.

If you use a pair of B-wings (or more), can you find 4 points to upgrade a Dagger to Nera Dantels and give her a Fletchette Torpedo? Personally, I'd consider that a pretty easy sell, especially tagging the target with a stress token (which is likely to make it easier to get back into arc next turn), and a fire control system (to auto-restore the target lock you just used).

I don't mind rebel aces per se because I get proton rockets out of it, but I can say the new named pilots all seem lethal. PS5-7 elite pilots are the norm for new releases (because people who deserve 8+ are few and far between and are mostly well-known, named pilots who're already in the game), but they make a hell of a difference vs generic pilots and the abilities they get seem really, really good. I hasten to add, that's not just a rebel thing. Echo is a case in point too.

* This is my only real vent on the subject: "Because, you know, the under-used B-wing really needed more stuff relative to everyone else..."

** On reason I approve of this; I like new pilots and cards encouraging options no-one used, and seriously, anyone who's ever fired a torpedo off a B-wing is free to chime in below and prove me wrong, but I don't think there are many of you!

Holy moley.

I turn my back for a weekend, and miss World War Internetz.

Just goes to show what happens if you don't stay alert.

...Okay. Executor is neither new, an incompetent player, nor a troll, and admits directly that this whole thread mostly sprang from a need to vent a bit after seeing the new rules for Nera Dantels. If anyone hasn't actually seen her, see below:

The whole outrider thing mostly grew out of other people taking a baton and running with it.

Now, is it just a vent or is it a genuine issue?

Disclaimer: Imperial Player, played in and done okay in events (usually placing ~5-8) but no tournament winner, and like High PS TIE Fighters and TIE Advanced (just so you can take comments into context).

The Outrider is obviously bad news for an interceptor or elite fighter list because a heavy laser that's hard to hide from (please, let's not start 10 pages of wiffle again, just accept 'hard' is not the same as 'impossible' but is also not the same as 'easy').

But I don't really care about that so much; at half a squad's points, it should be as dangerous as multiple snubcraft and it only gets to shoot once, however much punch it packs. Much like the falcon, I imagine it will go down to sufficient loving attention. More importantly, if you want to use it, you have to build a squad around it because of its price. If your squad is 'this one guy plus some escorts' I won't object to that one guy being rather good.

Nera Dantels is a completely different animal; a standard (and popular*) snubfighter class without a turret whose pilot ability lets you add a (limited use) 360 degree arc of fire. So; is it worth it?

Well, she costs 2 points more than a standard Dagger Squadron Pilot, plus the price of torpedoes. If you look at it from this perspective, if you take fletchette torps, she is a 4-point, one use turret, or a 6-point, two use one, that auto-stresses the target.

We're probably in similar territory to if you had the option to put a Blaster Turret (specifically) on a B-wing.

Since I never see B-wings with ordnance** - anyone planning on spending points on secondary weapons tends to pack the heavy laser instead - you're not losing any upgrade slots that matter - systems slot, cannon slot and crew slot (in an /E2) are all still free. Given Fire Control Systems, you may well find yourself with a free target lock anyway - if you get a shot at someone on the initial pass but then lose them in a knife fight, being able to swap to fletchettes for a turn gives you some good protection.

She does also have an extra point of pilot skill, which makes her tempting anyway - PS5 is a nice value because it's just enough to out-shoot any generic pilot short of the Royal Guard, and Daggers have no elite talent which could be used for Veteran Instincts.

In short, I've no idea about the Outrider. I see Han often enough to imagine that you'll see Dash a fair amount too; both have their advantages. But if you think of Nera Dantels as a pocket-change upgrade for a one-use, pretty effective turret on a fighter that was **** popular anyway, I'd expect to see her a lot.

If you use a pair of B-wings (or more), can you find 4 points to upgrade a Dagger to Nera Dantels and give her a Fletchette Torpedo? Personally, I'd consider that a pretty easy sell, especially tagging the target with a stress token (which is likely to make it easier to get back into arc next turn), and a fire control system (to auto-restore the target lock you just used).

I don't mind rebel aces per se because I get proton rockets out of it, but I can say the new named pilots all seem lethal. PS5-7 elite pilots are the norm for new releases (because people who deserve 8+ are few and far between and are mostly well-known, named pilots who're already in the game), but they make a hell of a difference vs generic pilots and the abilities they get seem really, really good. I hasten to add, that's not just a rebel thing. Echo is a case in point too.

* This is my only real vent on the subject: "Because, you know, the under-used B-wing really needed more stuff relative to everyone else..."

**On reason I approve of this; I like new pilots and cards encouraging options no-one used, and seriously, anyone who's ever fired a torpedo off a B-wing is free to chime in below and prove me wrong, but I don't think there are many of you!

So are you saying you want to build a snowman?

Let's just let this die.

It started as a rant ( OP said so himself ) and it got a bit out of hand.

All I got from this was some ships have turrets while the vast majority do not. Rebels have most of these turrets while Imperials will be getting their only turret soon. Someone was real butt hurt over this.

10 pages well spent.

All I got from this was some ships have turrets while the vast majority do not. Rebels have most of these turrets while Imperials will be getting their only turret soon. Someone was real butt hurt over this.

10 pages well spent.

Isn't it just?

Just wanted to do a bit of a dissection of the new pilot, as in 10 pages no-one except the OP actually talked about the new B-wing preview that he was originally talking about; prefering extended outrider- and interceptor-related wiffling.

I think Dantels should be quite popular, as said - a B-wing is a good (possibly the best) generic rebel fighter, and she lets you add turret-like capability without needing to swap out a heavy fighter that's good at dealing with A.N.Other list for a turret carrier (which tend to be less good at dealing with anything else) on the off chance that you find yourself facing echo or similar.

The game does still reward players for out maneuvering. The HWK and Y-wing are both limited to range 1-2 so anything attacking from range 3 is going to be out of range for retaliation. Granted this gives them an extra defence die, but seeing as how the Y-wing's agility is 1 and the HWK has 2 so this places them as rolling 2 and 3 respectively and this can be negated if you attack with a secondary weapon. Furthermore their turret options are the ion cannon turret or the blaster cannon turret. The ion cannon is limited to one damage per attack and a disruption of your mobility. This can be countered by simply out numbering the enemy as they can only use the ion cannon turret on one target per turn. If you send two ships after it then one may be hit, but the other can move in for a range 1 attack. Large ships can also work against this as it takes two ion tokens to disrupt their movement. The blaster cannon turret requires a focus to be spent just to fire it so the ship carrying it must perform a focus action just to fire it without being able to modify the roll without using additional abilities to give the ship either another focus or a target lock.

The YT-1300 get's a full 1-3 range and gets 3 attack without any notable penalties, but also comes at a significant cost and has low agility so it will likely take every hit rolled against it. You can mitigate the point cost by taking the outer rim smuggler, but that costs you 1 attack die as well as some hull and shield. The best move against it is to swarm it and take it out as quickly as possible while dodging it's escort ships. Once the YT-1300 is down your enemy forces will have been neutered. Yes you can't really doge it's arc, but you can overpower it and you can doge it's escorts. Also because it's turret is a primary weapon you get an extra defence die against it at range 3 so you still have an incentive to stick to range 2-3 and attack from afar.

The YT-2400 is going to have several options. With an auto blaster cannon it will be a powerhouse brawler at range 1, but range 1 will be all it has going for it so you can counter by staying outside of that range and dealing with it's escorts first. With the heavy laser cannon it gets range 2-3 with 4 dice, but no range 1 so if you fly well you can get in a bunch of range 1 attacks without danger. The ion cannon on this one gets range 1-3, but suffers the same problems stated for the Y-wing and HWK. At best it can only do 1 damage and disrupt the mobility of 1 ship so if it is outnumbered it will be at a disadvantage especially since it costs much more to field than a Y-wing or HWK. Also unlike the YT-1300 it cannot make effective use of a gunner unless it does not take the outrider title and because the outrider title is unique a team may only have one YT-2400 with a cannon for a turret and all others will be limited to the 2 attack primary turret.

Turrets exist to make maneuvering more difficult, but they do not render it pointless. Presently the ships which get turrets have only moderate agility at best leaving them vulnerable to coordinated swarms performing range 1 attack against them or taking advantages of weak spots in their attack range. You are going to have to eat some laser, but if you can stick to getting those boosted range 1 attacks in or you can kite the enemy's blind spots you can make the opponent eat more laser than you.

Turrets aren't the problem: GUNNER / LUKE SKYWALKER + PREDATOR is.

Turrets aren't the problem: GUNNER / LUKE SKYWALKER + PREDATOR is.

...didn't you say late last week that Predator was only good on Rexler Brath and Chewbacca? If you're right about Gunner + Predator, wouldn't that make it a problem for named B-wings, too?

Yes you can't really doge it's arc, but you can overpower it and you can doge it's escorts.

So outmaneuver

Such tricky

Thank you for getting that stuck my head again. I didn't even play the **** thing and its in my head again.

Sorry, I just couldn't hold it back anymore.

You could go the Swarm path OR you could go the RGI upgrade path givem Targeting computers and stealth device. You should give your Interceptor that wont be firing first outmanuver, the first to fire should have PTL. There was a match were I had Turr with V.I., I used him as a "laser painter" which would force the enemy pilot to lose any evade or focus they had, then I would finish them with the Baron and Outmanuver and the Interceptor mods listed above.

Look at it this way, someday the Empire will get a turret mod based on the Turtle Walkers "AT-AA" blaster flak anti-star fighter turret and it will be range 5 10 attack ,all hits are instant crit on fighters and bombers, and has a blast rad of 3 around primary target. Oh and you can have its anti-fight missile lawnchair, 1 per fleet. It does 30 attack all instant crit with blast rad of 30 as well, no evade dice or actions can be used.

That will be a great day for the empire ; )

Yes you can't really doge it's arc, but you can overpower it and you can doge it's escorts.

Much arc

So outmaneuver

Such tricky

wow

With the change to barrel rolls and large ships, I think it's safe to say that the Outrider isn't as big of an issue anymore. Very easy to get into the hole and keep the Outrider in that spot. I still don't see the issue with Nera.

So, just some issues with the Decimator adding another 3 primary turret to the game.

With the change to barrel rolls and large ships, I think it's safe to say that the Outrider isn't as big of an issue anymore. Very easy to get into the hole and keep the Outrider in that spot. I still don't see the issue with Nera.

So, just some issues with the Decimator adding another 3 primary turret to the game.

Yeah, I'm still going to throw an autoblaster turret on it and find out what happens lol