It's not a bad plan, but IMO as an answer to the original question you're essentially saying "you can win with a swarm by not playing it as a swarm". By investing in those named pilots you're moving away from the swarm concept of maximizing ship count/HP/attack dice in favor of PS and unique pilot abilities. You might still have 5 or 6 ships on the table, but your strategy is going to be much more like a 4-ship rebel list than a swarm.

No, you can win with a swarm by not flying it as a strict formation. That's what some people in this thread don't seem to understand; neither archetype is "dead" or "buried," but the mere presence of Phantoms strongly discourages any list that depends on Biggs or Howl. Not every XXBB list requires the former pilot, nor every swarm the latter.

If we're going to argue semantics (*sigh*), the term "swarm" merely implies the use of several ships, not necessarily a specific strategy. The only reason swarms were being flown in rigid formations was because Howl is (or was) just too good to pass up. A named TIE swarm still maximizes "ship count/HP/attack dice," but without the use of Howl's amazing support ability.

If only the E-Wing was a little cheaper points-wise...

The non-formation swarm is basically trading offense (no widespread Howlrunner re-roll) for durability (no lynchpin) and maneuverability. The thing is, maneuverability can rapidly transform into more offense as it's easier (for me, anyway) to get closer to get the extra attack die. I also have found I sorta dislike/suck at flying in formation, so that might just be me.

I would also add that the idea would be you would still have Howl in the list so that when you do not fly against a Phantom, you can still use the old tried-and-true tactics. Against Phantom lists you simply adjust your strategy to limit the Phantom and kill it.

Would I say that it has a huge advantage over other lists? No, not necessarily (at least no more than it did before). But I would argue that in a world of around half the field being Falcon lists (like it was in Plano), it could do quite well. The only gap is really how do you beat Phantoms with some level of consistency and if that is the only real gap I think you can compensate for it or accept it as a risk.

As mentioned, I think XXBB is still fine to some degree, although I would admit it is a bit easier to dismantle now than it was. That's not to say you can't win with it, but my confidence level in it is significantly lower than it was pre-wave 4.

In terms of XXBB, there was a time when the two ships represented 40% of the ships available to Rebels and the only ships with a native 3 attack dice.

As more waves have come out, and the options have grown, XXBB just isn't as much of a powerhouse relative to the options, as it once was.

vs Falcon both lists have a decent chance at winning. 3-po and z support being so points efficient make it more even than it was in wave 3 (specifically I think it makes it more difficult for 4 ship rebel).

vs Phantom both lists will lose significantly more than they win vs a competent phantom.

Not if you fly it right, it isn't.

But how much better than your competition do you need to be able to fly to overcome the rock to your scissors?

More to the point, can TIE swarms and XXBB lists develop doctrines to exploit the Phantom's Achilles heels?

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course, the Phantom doesn't come alone. Still, in my limited experience, the Phantom is quite mortal and people shouldn't get too worked up about it. As long as you're throwing enough red dice at it, it'll die.

Makinig as many attacks against the phantom as possible to me seems to be key. If I'm playing againts a phantom that's my target even if I have a better shot at something else. four defensive dice will wiff from time to time especially if they're using their actions for offense.

Not if you fly it right, it isn't.

But how much better than your competition do you need to be able to fly to overcome the rock to your scissors?

More to the point, can TIE swarms and XXBB lists develop doctrines to exploit the Phantom's Achilles heels?

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course, the Phantom doesn't come alone. Still, in my limited experience, the Phantom is quite mortal and people shouldn't get too worked up about it. As long as you're throwing enough red dice at it, it'll die.

Makinig as many attacks against the phantom as possible to me seems to be key. If I'm playing againts a phantom that's my target even if I have a better shot at something else. four defensive dice will wiff from time to time especially if they're using their actions for offense.

I believe there is a calculation on the average amount of shots you need to kill the phantom at 4 agi. I don't remember what the number is, that's for Major Juggler, I do remember thinking it was a high number and that it was unlikely to take that many shots in a game.

I still find that the stock Red Squadron X-Wing is a nice, well-rounded ship. It doesn't excel very far in any area, nor does it suffer any major deficencies. It's almost like FFG meant for it to be a backbone fighter. Not very sexy, but very reliable. Pop a simple R2 Astromech on it and it gains nice options after the K-Turn.

I still use them.

I think what I've noticed is that the XXBB meta has changed. I'm starting to see a lot more Wedge's on the table to try and counter the ACD on the Phantoms. Is it successful? Only time will tell. I imagine once we get Rebel Aces in our grubby little hands we'll see a return of the B's. Until then, I don't know that Wave IV will be much more than a ripple in the pond. When wave V hits, things should get really interesting..

I believe there is a calculation on the average amount of shots you need to kill the phantom at 4 agi. I don't remember what the number is, that's for Major Juggler, I do remember thinking it was a high number and that it was unlikely to take that many shots in a game.

I did this somewhere by looking at the average damage numbers, but it wasn't a true "shots required to kill". I should be doing that in the next month though, for all the ships, it will be an epic MathWing post!

Basically, x/4/2/2 is about twice as durable as x/3/3/0, using statistical averages. So it's about as hard to kill as a pair of TIE Fighters, assuming you get the same number and quality of shots on both. For reference the Firespray is about the most durable ship in the game at ~2.5x as durable as x/3/3/0.

The obvious issue is getting shots on ACD Phantoms, it's like playing whack-a-mole with piranhas, with your bare hands.

The raw statline value of 4/4/2/2 is about 28.5 points at PS1. Whisper is 37 points at PS9, meaning you're paying 8.5 points for +8PS and 3 extra actions every round (pilot ability, free cloak action, decloak roll). That is an incredible value. A free action normally costs 3 points, so you are getting 8+9 = 17 points of value, and only paying 8.5 points for it.

I believe there is a calculation on the average amount of shots you need to kill the phantom at 4 agi. I don't remember what the number is, that's for Major Juggler, I do remember thinking it was a high number and that it was unlikely to take that many shots in a game.

I did this somewhere by looking at the average damage numbers, but it wasn't a true "shots required to kill". I should be doing that in the next month though, for all the ships, it will be an epic MathWing post!

Basically, x/4/2/2 is about twice as durable as x/3/3/0, using statistical averages. So it's about as hard to kill as a pair of TIE Fighters, assuming you get the same number and quality of shots on both. For reference the Firespray is about the most durable ship in the game at ~2.5x as durable as x/3/3/0.

The obvious issue is getting shots on ACD Phantoms, it's like playing whack-a-mole with piranhas, with your bare hands.

The raw statline value of 4/4/2/2 is about 28.5 points at PS1. Whisper is 37 points at PS9, meaning you're paying 8.5 points for +8PS and 3 extra actions every round (pilot ability, free cloak action, decloak roll). That is an incredible value. A free action normally costs 3 points, so you are getting 8+9 = 17 points of value, and only paying 8.5 points for it.

That's when you have the shots to kill those 2 ties, actually getting that many shots is really hard unless you have a YT, even then you need gunner to get those extra attacks.

It seems that XXBB and tie swarms were made popular by the world finals. They may have had a slight edge on other lists, but given this is still a game of dice mixed with player skill, a number of lists could have made it to finals. I feel that whatever "top lists" there are, are part "good lists", but also part popularity contest.

XXBB, not so much and only because Phantoms exist now. The X-Wing is a great ship, my personal favorite, however it is not high in the maneuverability department and can't hold up well versus a phantom. The B-Wing, while a powerful dogfighter, also is not the most maneuverable, even with advanced sensors, and can not take the 4 or 5 dice a Phantom will throw at it each turn.

In the end, I think you lose either one B-Wing or 1 X-Wing in favor of a Y-Wing with Ion Turret.

So I guess that traditional XXBB list may indeed be a thing of the past... for now.

I agree with this except for the part that says the bwing isn't that maneuverable with adv sensors. Care to elaborate on that?

The obvious issue is getting shots on ACD Phantoms, it's like playing whack-a-mole with piranhas, with your bare hands.

I love this. Totally stealing it

TIE swarm kills Falcons. "Oh, C3-PO cancelled my attack? That's cute. What will he do against the other six?"

That's when you have the shots to kill those 2 ties, actually getting that many shots is really hard unless you have a YT, even then you need gunner to get those extra attacks.

I, for one, welcome our new Turreted Overlords.

Oh wait, I don't.

I played XXBB (2 Red, 2 Dagger) three games in a row last night against phantoms, interceptors, and defenders and won two of the three games. The meta isn't dead because some play styles happen to be left over from previous metas. The old metas can mix in and adapt to the new ones. The week prior I took a four ship Imperial ( Turr, Howl, Saber, Gamma) against a wave four rebel list and won both of my games.

Adapting your strategy is the key, if you don't apply lessons you have learned previously and don't stick to a plan, you will get dominated no matter what you fly.

I played XXBB (2 Red, 2 Dagger) three games in a row last night against phantoms, interceptors, and defenders and won two of the three games. The meta isn't dead because some play styles happen to be left over from previous metas. The old metas can mix in and adapt to the new ones. The week prior I took a four ship Imperial ( Turr, Howl, Saber, Gamma) against a wave four rebel list and won both of my games.

Adapting your strategy is the key, if you don't apply lessons you have learned previously and don't stick to a plan, you will get dominated no matter what you fly.

Which Phantom, how was it loaded, how good of a player?

(Essentially the xwing version of pics or it didn't happen)

Skill three, stygium particle accelerator, recon spec. He was a skilled player, I'm pretty sure second place in the league I just joined, but I also just moved here so it isn't like I know all of them already. The third game (my loss) he adapted to my playstyle and replaced some interceptors with a defender that had HLC. I bumped it on turn two with my formation and after that I really had no chance. Maximizing the four dice shots for those first two turns basically stomped me down. But the previous two games, focused fire and action denial ensured I only lost one ship out of both games.

I played XXBB (2 Red, 2 Dagger) three games in a row last night against phantoms, interceptors, and defenders and won two of the three games. The meta isn't dead because some play styles happen to be left over from previous metas. The old metas can mix in and adapt to the new ones. The week prior I took a four ship Imperial ( Turr, Howl, Saber, Gamma) against a wave four rebel list and won both of my games.

Adapting your strategy is the key, if you don't apply lessons you have learned previously and don't stick to a plan, you will get dominated no matter what you fly.

IMHO this is very encouraging.

They were also my first two games against the phantom, so I can't say that it is ground breaking or anything. For me it was just good to go two for three with small ship rebels vs. lists that include the phantom.

I will trump your meta: My buddy just won a tournament running 3 Awings and 3 Z95.

Dont be a follower.

They just kept yelling at me to lead, follow, or get out of the way. So I got out of the way!

Skill three, stygium particle accelerator, recon spec.

I'm not taking away anything from your victories but, to be fair, the Phantom problem is more the named ones that the generics, being able to recloak every turn before being shot at, decloaking every turn before moving so you can't really be sure of where they'll end up. A Phantom that can't decloak every turn and actually need to spend an action to cloak again is not very terifying. That's a 2 dice defense ship that can't arc dodge like crazy.