So the last meta seemed to favour Biggs Walks the Dogs and the infamous Tie Swarm. My question is in your experience at your regular FLGS nights, tournaments and at regionals are these builds dead? Are they still wining? Have they been modified to meet the new meta which seems to be Falcons and Phantoms?

Tie swarms still appear to be very popular, although the four 3-gun rebel ship build might be dying off a bit.

The internet says its true, so it must be... because they can't put it on the internet unless it is true.

Seriously though, the TIE Phantom really has had an impact on the meta in the short run, but I think that once the dust has settled people will adapt and we will see these list re-emerge on the competitive scene with some new tricks up their sleeves.

My conclusions from looking at wave 4 Regionals results are:

1. C3-P0 and Z-95s have made Falcon + Support stronger than it has ever been
2. Named ACD + VI Phantoms are very good

So both of those are cleaning house. It will be interesting to see how things settle out by Nationals. The current wave 3 Vassal tournament is wrapping up in the next few weeks, so the next vassal tournament should yield some interesting results.

TIE swarm kills Falcons. "Oh, C3-PO cancelled my attack? That's cute. What will he do against the other six?"

TIE Swarm, when flown in a formation, dies hard core to Phantom lists.

Part of me wonders if TIE Swarm players are just going to keep on keeping on until they face a TIE Phantom. And in that case they will break up their formation flying, spread out and out shoot the smaller elite pilot ship builds. I think that is what I am going to try at least!

shhhh... don't tell anybody.

And XXBB? Seen them flown or is the build obsolete now?

High Pilot skill and Stress are your best Phantom killer.

The TIE Swarm is cool, but it is no longer the best way to go with Wave Four on the table.

The Falcon will always be solid.

And XXBB? Seen them flown or is the build obsolete now?

All XXBB is is two X-wings and two B-wings. That's a huge amount of design space to adapt. Plus you could easily swap out one ship for a Y-wing.

XXBB, not so much and only because Phantoms exist now. The X-Wing is a great ship, my personal favorite, however it is not high in the maneuverability department and can't hold up well versus a phantom. The B-Wing, while a powerful dogfighter, also is not the most maneuverable, even with advanced sensors, and can not take the 4 or 5 dice a Phantom will throw at it each turn.

In the end, I think you lose either one B-Wing or 1 X-Wing in favor of a Y-Wing with Ion Turret.

So I guess that traditional XXBB list may indeed be a thing of the past... for now.

I think TIE swarm will be fine. Phantoms can give it trouble, but with so many people adopting Falcon lists in an attempt to counter Phantoms, I could easily see Swarm doing quite well if they were a bit lucky pairing-wise. The Plano, TX Regional was dominated by Falcon lists up to top 4 with only a relative few Phantom lists in the top 32. Had a capable player decided to play swarm he likely would have not had to face Phantoms a vast majority of the time, and likely would have coasted for the most part to top 8.

I think its less likely that we will see "traditional" swarms (which I would define as Howl +6), but an adaptation thereof. Howl +4-5 with some sort of non-phantom ship (for sake of argument).

I do think XXBB has given way a bit for now. Phantom issues and the Z-95 being available largely contribute to this IMO. I still think that XXBB is fine, but in a world full of Phantoms and Falcon/Z lists, it gets much more challenging to consistently win with in 6-7+ round tournament environment.

instead of the XXBB archetype, I am seeing a lot of XXZZZ or some other variant that contains Zs and any other flavoring of ships. It almost seems like the rookie is being retired for two Z-95s

Both are far less prominent, but neither is obsolete.

I could easily see Swarm doing quite well if they were a bit lucky pairing-wise

That highlighted part is the important part. Do swarm lists really have enough of an advantage over lists that don't depend on getting lucky with the pairings?

I think TIE swarm will be fine. Phantoms can give it trouble, but with so many people adopting Falcon lists in an attempt to counter Phantoms, I could easily see Swarm doing quite well if they were a bit lucky pairing-wise. The Plano, TX Regional was dominated by Falcon lists up to top 4 with only a relative few Phantom lists in the top 32. Had a capable player decided to play swarm he likely would have not had to face Phantoms a vast majority of the time, and likely would have coasted for the most part to top 8.

I think its less likely that we will see "traditional" swarms (which I would define as Howl +6), but an adaptation thereof. Howl +4-5 with some sort of non-phantom ship (for sake of argument).

I do think XXBB has given way a bit for now. Phantom issues and the Z-95 being available largely contribute to this IMO. I still think that XXBB is fine, but in a world full of Phantoms and Falcon/Z lists, it gets much more challenging to consistently win with in 6-7+ round tournament environment.

I'm one of the few Plano regulars that enjoys TIE swarms (rare case where one is brought to the league play and most tournament players are out-of-towners). I seriously debated bringing a swarm but showed up late to scout the field and see if I saw a perfect counter (Z95 + Assault Missile x3 or more, maybe with Blount). I saw a number of players with 2+ Z95s (about a dozen by my count, maybe you have a better count) and decided to fly something else.

The first build I flew against was XXZZZ with Assault Missiles. Ironically, I lost that game anyway. In hindsight, I should have just brought the swarm as there was only a few players with regular swarms.

I hope X-Wings and TIE fighters never go out of fashion...

Not if you fly it right, it isn't.

I could easily see Swarm doing quite well if they were a bit lucky pairing-wise

.That highlighted part is the important part. Do swarm lists really have enough of an advantage over lists that don't depend on getting lucky with the pairings?

Last Monday I came across a Named Tie Swarm with six ships vs Han and Luke with some Talas ... It was close, too close for me. I won.

Not if you fly it right, it isn't.

But how much better than your competition do you need to be able to fly to overcome the rock to your scissors?

More to the point, can TIE swarms and XXBB lists develop doctrines to exploit the Phantom's Achilles heels?

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course, the Phantom doesn't come alone. Still, in my limited experience, the Phantom is quite mortal and people shouldn't get too worked up about it. As long as you're throwing enough red dice at it, it'll die.

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course this raises the question of why you're flying a TIE swarm instead of a z-95 swarm if you aren't using Howlrunner.

My conclusions from looking at wave 4 Regionals results are:

• C3-P0 and Z-95s have made Falcon + Support stronger than it has ever been
• Named ACD + VI Phantoms are very good

So both of those are cleaning house. It will be interesting to see how things settle out by Nationals. The current wave 3 Vassal tournament is wrapping up in the next few weeks, so the next vassal tournament should yield some interesting results.

Not if you fly it right, it isn't.

But how much better than your competition do you need to be able to fly to overcome the rock to your scissors?

More to the point, can TIE swarms and XXBB lists develop doctrines to exploit the Phantom's Achilles heels?

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course, the Phantom doesn't come alone. Still, in my limited experience, the Phantom is quite mortal and people shouldn't get too worked up about it. As long as you're throwing enough red dice at it, it'll die.

Phantoms don't suffer from being blocked, they suffer when they can't shoot back.

I think TIE swarm will be fine. Phantoms can give it trouble, but with so many people adopting Falcon lists in an attempt to counter Phantoms, I could easily see Swarm doing quite well if they were a bit lucky pairing-wise. The Plano, TX Regional was dominated by Falcon lists up to top 4 with only a relative few Phantom lists in the top 32. Had a capable player decided to play swarm he likely would have not had to face Phantoms a vast majority of the time, and likely would have coasted for the most part to top 8. I think its less likely that we will see "traditional" swarms (which I would define as Howl +6), but an adaptation thereof. Howl +4-5 with some sort of non-phantom ship (for sake of argument). I do think XXBB has given way a bit for now. Phantom issues and the Z-95 being available largely contribute to this IMO. I still think that XXBB is fine, but in a world full of Phantoms and Falcon/Z lists, it gets much more challenging to consistently win with in 6-7+ round tournament environment.

I'm one of the few Plano regulars that enjoys TIE swarms (rare case where one is brought to the league play and most tournament players are out-of-towners). I seriously debated bringing a swarm but showed up late to scout the field and see if I saw a perfect counter (Z95 + Assault Missile x3 or more, maybe with Blount). I saw a number of players with 2+ Z95s (about a dozen by my count, maybe you have a better count) and decided to fly something else. The first build I flew against was XXZZZ with Assault Missiles. Ironically, I lost that game anyway. In hindsight, I should have just brought the swarm as there was only a few players with regular swarms. I hope X-Wings and TIE fighters never go out of fashion...[/

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Death to scouts

As I've been a bit of a swarm player, I would entertain the idea that if you spread your TIEs out, and keep them pointed in the right way, you can create it so that the Phantom is likely to bump into you, thus losing its actions. I've not flown against the Phantom enough to know what kind of a pattern that would entail, but it seems theoretically possible to me.

Of course this raises the question of why you're flying a TIE swarm instead of a z-95 swarm if you aren't using Howlrunner.

Because the named TIEs are actually quite capable on their own.

Indeed. A not-quite-a-swarm of the named TIE pilots and/or veteran instincts Black Squadron pilots is a nasty force to face because it's got a numerical edge but also manouvres after and shoots before most opponents - you can form up into a 2 x 3 box around Howlrunner but you can split formation and brawl very effectively - especially with Dark Curse, Backstabber, etc.

Indeed. A not-quite-a-swarm of the named TIE pilots and/or veteran instincts Black Squadron pilots is a nasty force to face because it's got a numerical edge but also manouvres after and shoots before most opponents - you can form up into a 2 x 3 box around Howlrunner but you can split formation and brawl very effectively - especially with Dark Curse, Backstabber, etc.

It's not a bad plan, but IMO as an answer to the original question you're essentially saying "you can win with a swarm by not playing it as a swarm". By investing in those named pilots you're moving away from the swarm concept of maximizing ship count/HP/attack dice in favor of PS and unique pilot abilities. You might still have 5 or 6 ships on the table, but your strategy is going to be much more like a 4-ship rebel list than a swarm.