We're baaaack! We cover wave 5, the Galactic Cup, Wave 4 meta (or lack thereof), and some cool lists we've seen that we like.

Shuttle List: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/68145/alabaster-hippo-ballet

Phantom List: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/97344/epic-echo

Z-95 List: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/61112/release-the-cracken

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/?p=54

Ban ACD huh? I think it's early but an adjustment could be in order.

Great stuff as usual. I missed you fellas.

Can't wait to listen to this, missed you guys!

Oh man, I have so many thoughts after this one.

1) I hadn't realized until you said it that I was being held hostage. I've been working on a lot of new lists lately, but I didn't think about until now that the reason for it is that lists need to counter the phantom or be a phantom list. But looking back on it, that is exactly what I've been doing. I've paid no attention to the Defender or E-Wing because I've yet to find a way to put them in a list that can deal with a phantom.

2) How does one spell Zozen? And what is Soonterizing 5v1? More importantly, a bit of constructive criticism brought about by these: You might want to be on the lookout for inside jokes, references, or names that a casual listener won't necessarily recognize.

3) Do you think the Phantom hurts 'fly casual' as well? There are a lot of lists I'd like to fly, but the possibility of having a Phantom chew up my backside and rolling nothing but green dice for an hour keeps me away from them. I don't mind losing with a list that is just for fun, but that doesn't sound like much fun. You want to at least feel like you have a fighting chance. In order to 'have fun' now it seems you either need to counter or be a Phantom.

4) Stop talking about the greatness of shuttles...not because it is any way bad, but because you are making me want to buy more of them and I've got no room in the case for it! It's a slippery slope to mass expenditure.

5) Is there another way to fix ACD outside of a ban? Like it stresses you. Or the attack must actually hit.

6) Wave 5, from what I've seen, only partially provides relief to the Phantom. It gives new ships that can act as counters, but I don't see (yet) that it makes other ships/lists more viable if you don't include them. That is, I'm still not flying something like 4 X-Wings even with Wave 5.

I will listen for sure but I don't think any change is necessary to ACD. There are many 4 attack options: HLC, firing at range 1 with most ships, etc. Cards like Outmaneuver and Wedge reduce the cloak effectiveness. 360 turrets make the decloak less useful, two more of those in Wave 5. There are now many stress giving options as well. There are lots of ships and cards that are good. The Phantom with ACD is simply the most recent.

Yeah, I think you'd better listen to it. Nobody thinks that there aren't counters to the Phantom. The primary point is this - Sure, there are counters to the Phantom with ACD, but if you don't put one of those counters in, it is going to eat you up. A lot of list possibilities are wiped off the board because they aren't viable against a phantom with ACD. It isn't an auto-win uncounterable ship, it limits squad building to two options: Kills Phantoms or is Phantoms. It isn't a very appealing meta.

Is there precedence for heavy handed changes to a card based on a few weeks of player experience in this game?

Oh man, I have so many thoughts after this one.

1) I hadn't realized until you said it that I was being held hostage. I've been working on a lot of new lists lately, but I didn't think about until now that the reason for it is that lists need to counter the phantom or be a phantom list. But looking back on it, that is exactly what I've been doing. I've paid no attention to the Defender or E-Wing because I've yet to find a way to put them in a list that can deal with a phantom.

2) How does one spell Zozen? And what is Soonterizing 5v1? More importantly, a bit of constructive criticism brought about by these: You might want to be on the lookout for inside jokes, references, or names that a casual listener won't necessarily recognize.

3) Do you think the Phantom hurts 'fly casual' as well? There are a lot of lists I'd like to fly, but the possibility of having a Phantom chew up my backside and rolling nothing but green dice for an hour keeps me away from them. I don't mind losing with a list that is just for fun, but that doesn't sound like much fun. You want to at least feel like you have a fighting chance. In order to 'have fun' now it seems you either need to counter or be a Phantom.

4) Stop talking about the greatness of shuttles...not because it is any way bad, but because you are making me want to buy more of them and I've got no room in the case for it! It's a slippery slope to mass expenditure.

5) Is there another way to fix ACD outside of a ban? Like it stresses you. Or the attack must actually hit.

6) Wave 5, from what I've seen, only partially provides relief to the Phantom. It gives new ships that can act as counters, but I don't see (yet) that it makes other ships/lists more viable if you don't include them. That is, I'm still not flying something like 4 X-Wings even with Wave 5.

On point 2: It's Sozin, and you can find his twitch account under Sozinsky. I totally agree with you about the inside joke/reference. I think for us it's a habit, but we will work on clarifying better. As for Soontiring, Richard had 5 ships on the table and he had killed all his opponents ships except Soontir Fel. The Soontir proceeded to kill all of his ships in epic fashion. It still Haunts Richards dreams.

Is there precedence for heavy handed changes to a card based on a few weeks of player experience in this game?

No not yet, not major changes at all really, some clarifications.

They mentioned the player experience, and also added to remember that the pilots of phantoms are just learning too. By the time your learn to counter they learn to fly even better.

Yes more play testing is always good but at a certain point you should give some weight to opinions from those in the know. They might not always be right but chances are they have more games in than most and have a more informed opinion (but maybe not, its the internet who knows).

On point 2: It's Sozin, and you can find his twitch account under Sozinsky. I totally agree with you about the inside joke/reference. I think for us it's a habit, but we will work on clarifying better. As for Soontiring, Richard had 5 ships on the table and he had killed all his opponents ships except Soontir Fel. The Soontir proceeded to kill all of his ships in epic fashion. It still Haunts Richards dreams.

*shudders*

This was for the last Vassal Tournament. I was in the top 16 with a great anti tie counter and I just got rocked by Soontir.

Listening now.

i updated the original post to include the links of the lists we discussed.

I haven't listened to it yet. Hopefully will get the chance tonight while I am painting the office. Got any fun math problems to work out this time?

I haven't listened to it yet. Hopefully will get the chance tonight while I am painting the office. Got any fun math problems to work out this time?

We always seem to have some fun Math question for you. I'll have to listen again, but we did call on you.

Oh man, I have so many thoughts after this one.

1) I hadn't realized until you said it that I was being held hostage. I've been working on a lot of new lists lately, but I didn't think about until now that the reason for it is that lists need to counter the phantom or be a phantom list. But looking back on it, that is exactly what I've been doing. I've paid no attention to the Defender or E-Wing because I've yet to find a way to put them in a list that can deal with a phantom.

2) How does one spell Zozen? And what is Soonterizing 5v1? More importantly, a bit of constructive criticism brought about by these: You might want to be on the lookout for inside jokes, references, or names that a casual listener won't necessarily recognize.

3) Do you think the Phantom hurts 'fly casual' as well? There are a lot of lists I'd like to fly, but the possibility of having a Phantom chew up my backside and rolling nothing but green dice for an hour keeps me away from them. I don't mind losing with a list that is just for fun, but that doesn't sound like much fun. You want to at least feel like you have a fighting chance. In order to 'have fun' now it seems you either need to counter or be a Phantom.

4) Stop talking about the greatness of shuttles...not because it is any way bad, but because you are making me want to buy more of them and I've got no room in the case for it! It's a slippery slope to mass expenditure.

5) Is there another way to fix ACD outside of a ban? Like it stresses you. Or the attack must actually hit.

6) Wave 5, from what I've seen, only partially provides relief to the Phantom. It gives new ships that can act as counters, but I don't see (yet) that it makes other ships/lists more viable if you don't include them. That is, I'm still not flying something like 4 X-Wings even with Wave 5.

On point 3: To me the Fly Casual Campaign is more about being a good sport. Play the game, help your opponent out with moves that are on your side of the board, help new players out with pilot abilities. Be a ambassador of good will. Playing a phantom squad is not against this idea. If you run a Phantom squad and completely destroy your opponent, then you may want to talk with them after the game and see what they could have done differently to win. Help them learn. This will hopefully take some of the sting out of the loss, and also help your fellow players get better.

On Point 4: I can't guarantee we won't talk about the shuttle. The 3 of us love it to much.

On Point 5: I'm not a fan of Banning cards. I think sets a bad precedent. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this added to the cloak action text. "You may not perform a Cloak action if you have de-cloaked this turn" ACD would still work, just not all the time.

On Point 6: I agree, which bothers me. I'm not happy with the way FFG is taking the game.

I haven't listened to it yet. Hopefully will get the chance tonight while I am painting the office. Got any fun math problems to work out this time?

We always seem to have some fun Math question for you. I'll have to listen again, but we did call on you.

I found what I was looking for. What's the odds break down for the Lando Crew Card?

I found what I was looking for. What's the odds break down for the Lando Crew Card?

Someone already ran the numbers, and they are:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108573-bring-out-the-big-guns-wave-5-announcement/page-24#entry1122268

I just verified it by doing the exact fractional breakdown:

Nothing: (3/8)^2 = 9/64 = 14.06%

1 Focus: (2/8)*(3/8)*2 = 3/16 = 18.75%

1 Evade: (3/8)*(3/8)*2 = 9/32 = 28.13%

2 Focus: (2/8)^2 = 1/16 = 6.25%

2 Evade: (3/8)^2 = 9/64 = 14.06%

1 Evade + 1 Focus: (3/8)*(2/8)*2 = 3/16 = 18.75%

I'm disappointed with all the open weeping in this episode. Your talk about the Phantom was almost unbearable. Frankly, it's refreshing to see this ship hit with such excitement. Consider how much the game has been dominated by large ships until now. So many players take the safe route of a YT and a couple of supporting fighters, that the idea of dogfighting had almost been lost.

As an Imperial player who regularly faces lists that boast turrets and twice the Hp as my squad I think you guys are being huge whimps. Sorry, I enjoy and respect your opinions most of the time. This is exactly what an expansion should do, shake things up. And wave 5 isn't the white knight. You'll just have to actually dogfight to win.

I'm disappointed with all the open weeping in this episode. Your talk about the Phantom was almost unbearable. Frankly, it's refreshing to see this ship hit with such excitement. Consider how much the game has been dominated by large ships until now. So many players take the safe route of a YT and a couple of supporting fighters, that the idea of dogfighting had almost been lost.

As an Imperial player who regularly faces lists that boast turrets and twice the Hp as my squad I think you guys are being huge whimps. Sorry, I enjoy and respect your opinions most of the time. This is exactly what an expansion should do, shake things up. And wave 5 isn't the white knight. You'll just have to actually dogfight to win.

The game will be more dominated by large ships with large arcs in this wave. Every list has to have an answer for the phantom or lose. The most consistent response has been turrets. If you wanted to see less of those this isn't the wave for you.

By "shaking things up" they ended up making the meta much smaller. Phantom counter or bigger phantom.

The meta is becoming paper / rock / scissors:

Gunner Turrets > Phantoms > Swarms / 4 Rebels > Gunner Turrets

Phantoms > Swarms / 4 Rebels is the hardest counter. Looking at the Regional Results so far, Gunner Turret builds are seeing the most use statistically. This could change if people start bringing more swarms again. I need to update the Regionals thread with Squad Archetypes, but looking at the lists I don't see nearly as many pure TIE swarms making Final Cut.

Looking forward to wave 5:

• The YT-2400 only has 2 attack dice, so it shouldn't counter ACD Phantoms. A PS9 doughnut with Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon should be the exception.
• VT-49 Decimator + Rebel Captive will hard counter ACD Phantom. I'm very curious about the lower PS pilot costs and abilities.

To be clear- there is rock and then there is ROCK. ACD+VI phantoms are capital letter rock while other phantoms are seeing minimal play, and while good, are not as big a strict meta blaster.

I'd wait to see what happens with wave 5 and the impending imperial hugs and the GenCon tournamet before addressing ACD only. Sucks the we have to live through it but I'm confident FFG will do right by us.

The meta is becoming paper / rock / scissors:

Gunner Turrets > Phantoms > Swarms / 4 Rebels > Gunner Turrets

Phantoms > Swarms / 4 Rebels is the hardest counter. Looking at the Regional Results so far, Gunner Turret builds are seeing the most use statistically. This could change if people start bringing more swarms again. I need to update the Regionals thread with Squad Archetypes, but looking at the lists I don't see nearly as many pure TIE swarms making Final Cut.

Looking forward to wave 5:

• The YT-2400 only has 2 attack dice, so it shouldn't counter ACD Phantoms. A PS9 doughnut with Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon should be the exception.
• VT-49 Decimator + Rebel Captive will hard counter ACD Phantom. I'm very curious about the lower PS pilot costs and abilities.

Vader + gunner for phantom killer on the decimator...

I suppose it has a lot to do with my environment, predominantly rebels. I was one of two Imperial players at my local Imdaar Alpha event, and he flew two Firesprays. Maybe I just play with a bunch of rebel loving YT junkies. My point is the current possibilities can work just fine. Bust out a PS 9 pilot, engine upgrade, an A wing. Imp players have had to work around turrets, now you guys have something to shoot for.

I suppose it has a lot to do with my environment, predominantly rebels. I was one of two Imperial players at my local Imdaar Alpha event, and he flew two Firesprays. Maybe I just play with a bunch of rebel loving YT junkies. My point is the current possibilities can work just fine. Bust out a PS 9 pilot, engine upgrade, an A wing. Imp players have had to work around turrets, now you guys have something to shoot for.

I hope you're right and I end up looking like a crazy person. I don't expect that.

I'm disappointed with all the open weeping in this episode. Your talk about the Phantom was almost unbearable. Frankly, it's refreshing to see this ship hit with such excitement. Consider how much the game has been dominated by large ships until now. So many players take the safe route of a YT and a couple of supporting fighters, that the idea of dogfighting had almost been lost.

As an Imperial player who regularly faces lists that boast turrets and twice the Hp as my squad I think you guys are being huge whimps. Sorry, I enjoy and respect your opinions most of the time. This is exactly what an expansion should do, shake things up. And wave 5 isn't the white knight. You'll just have to actually dogfight to win.

I'm disappointed with the ***** session too. I think this is good feedback. Next time I think we should focus on how to deal with the ship instead of just complaining.