Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

I'm just waiting for someone with Roark to beat the stuffing out of Whisper or Echo at a Regionals. Something as simple as:

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent

3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors

Unless you can dodge all THREE B-wing arcs, your Phantom will get shot at by 3 dice with focus, and you have only 2 agility. It'll still take a couple rounds of fire to take it down, but it's far less scary.

I like that. It's the getting a shot at all that is somewhat difficult.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

On the Imperial side of things, something like this might work:

Omicron Group pilot w/ Darth Vader, Gunner

Boba Fett w/ Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade

Turr Phennir w/ Veteran Instincts

TOTAL: 99 points

Boba has higher PS than any phantom, so combined w/ engine upgrade and rear arc, is likely to get a shot off. Phennir's PS is tied with the best a Phantom can get, and a 99-point initiative bid means you could shoot the phantom before ACD kicks in and hopefully get out of arc. Omicron uses Vader (maybe twice) to deal the damage.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

On the Imperial side of things, something like this might work:

Omicron Group pilot w/ Darth Vader, Gunner

Boba Fett w/ Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade

Turr Phennir w/ Veteran Instincts

TOTAL: 99 points

Boba has higher PS than any phantom, so combined w/ engine upgrade and rear arc, is likely to get a shot off. Phennir's PS is tied with the best a Phantom can get, and a 99-point initiative bid means you could shoot the phantom before ACD kicks in and hopefully get out of arc. Omicron uses Vader (maybe twice) to deal the damage.

My Boba build is similar, but Boba is paired up with 2 OMGs and he has Tactician. Boba is fantastic because if nothing else, he is going to keep that Phantom locked down under cloak. He can essentially cover 360 if you are banking with boost due to his pilot ability. I think Tactician just adds another scary thing for the Phantom to sweat if he ever does decloak, and with Boba's maneuverability he either won't decloak or I'll have a decent chance of stressing him. I think this plays out with the Phantom just running around under cloak most of the time with Boba taking what free shots he can get. I like OMGs with it more than another Phantom counter just due to board coverage and ability to last a bit. Let them harass the bulk of the other squad while Boba does his thing. Your opponent is not going to be able to ignore them, and it is hard to remove OMGs quickly. Or, he might ignore them, in which case I'll happily fire 6 attack dice up their tailpipe.

I really think if you are going turret-less, you must have the boost action, and based on the regionals results, you must go to PS10+. I think it was like 14% of players coming in at 97 on initative bid. 96 is awfully low and you are probably better off just using the 4 points to get to PS 10. At 10 with boost you can wait for him to make his move and hopefully just point at him. Without boost, you're just guessing and the Phantom has a lot more area he knows you can't get to.

I like a decked out Ten Numb to go against Phantoms as well.

Ten Numb w/vet Instincts

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

He has the maneuverability, PS10, and his pilot ability can cut right through those evade dice. The real problem is that I'm tempted to throw Autoblaster on there out of panic.

For the record, my build is:

Boba w/VI

Tactician

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Tactician

Ion Cannon

I'll admit, I'm not in love with the first OMG. He has what he has in case the two get flanked and Boba can't cover. I think the second is scary as all get-out and helps people remember that the shuttles need to be dealt with. People hate Ion-stress. The staying power of an OMG if I choose to go whole hog after the phantom and take an initial salvo is hard to pass on as well.

For the record, my build is:

Boba w/VI

Tactician

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Tactician

Ion Cannon

I'll admit, I'm not in love with the first OMG. He has what he has in case the two get flanked and Boba can't cover. I think the second is scary as all get-out and helps people remember that the shuttles need to be dealt with. People hate Ion-stress. The staying power of an OMG if I choose to go whole hog after the phantom and take an initial salvo is hard to pass on as well.

This is interesting.

For the record, my build is:

Boba w/VI

Tactician

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Tactician

Ion Cannon

I'll admit, I'm not in love with the first OMG. He has what he has in case the two get flanked and Boba can't cover. I think the second is scary as all get-out and helps people remember that the shuttles need to be dealt with. People hate Ion-stress. The staying power of an OMG if I choose to go whole hog after the phantom and take an initial salvo is hard to pass on as well.

This is interesting.

Now that my mind is spinning on this again, I'm wondering if it isn't better to fully kit out one shuttle with all the upgrades listed and fly the second naked. It will make the Tactician and ion cannon a lot more potent. The more dangerous ship is now harder to flank, and if they try to flank the naked OMG, I have quite the annoyance to cover his tail.

I'm certain this build is a nightmare for your everyday Phantom pilot. Not sure how it stands up to an excellent pilot though.

For the record, I think we need more time and data before proclaiming the Phantom or ACD in particular as broken. It's still incredibly new and has a steep curve, so few people have counter techniques, especially against someone who has a bunch of Phantom time already. Note that named Gunner YTs have been around for a long time and they have had great success in this data as well, so are we grumbling about banning turrets or Gunner? So, let's chill for a bit.

If, however, ACD needs to be fixed, the main issue is the instantaneous aspect, so take it away. Change it so that, if the Phantom attacks, it may perform a free Cloak action at the end of the combat phase. It stays vulnerable longer (meaning low PS ships can still earn a shot vs AG2) and still gain the bonus. Keeps the role, loses the super defense, adds vulnerability and skill back to the ship, and is still useful. As a Phantom enthusiast, I'd be A-OK with that tweak

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

Here's one: Kath with VI, seismic charges, rebel captive, and ion missiles or flèchette torpedoes. Then Jax with PTL, Hull, and Mithel with VI and Hull. 100 with ion or 99 with flèchette. I've also considered dropping a hull to get Kath an engine upgrade (when paired with the flechettes).

Kath is a ship a phantom (especially a high PS one) has to avoid. Jax is a high PS and can limit the use of something like recon Whisper's ability and Mithil is a cheap, hard hitting PS 9. My concern for the list is an opposing falcon, though, but hopefully the hull is helpful on the TIES.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

I'm just waiting for someone with Roark to beat the stuffing out of Whisper or Echo at a Regionals. Something as simple as:

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent

3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors

Unless you can dodge all THREE B-wing arcs, your Phantom will get shot at by 3 dice with focus, and you have only 2 agility. It'll still take a couple rounds of fire to take it down, but it's far less scary.

I like that. It's the getting a shot at all that is somewhat difficult.

With three diverging arcs, it usually isn't difficult to get a shot. The trick is to keep Roark alive long enough to get that shot in several consecutive rounds.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

I'm just waiting for someone with Roark to beat the stuffing out of Whisper or Echo at a Regionals. Something as simple as:

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent

3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors

Unless you can dodge all THREE B-wing arcs, your Phantom will get shot at by 3 dice with focus, and you have only 2 agility. It'll still take a couple rounds of fire to take it down, but it's far less scary.

I like that. It's the getting a shot at all that is somewhat difficult.

With three diverging arcs, it usually isn't difficult to get a shot. The trick is to keep Roark alive long enough to get that shot in several consecutive rounds.

The only thing I can think is FCS and an ion on a b might be better anti phantom tech. The phantom does not like the ion.

Yup. 3 dice + focus vs 2 dice + focus is a 70% chance to land the hit and give it an Ion token.

Here's a nice control list:

100 points

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret

2x Blue Squadron Pilot + Fire Control System + Ion Cannon

Blue Squadron Pilot

B's can use the Ion Cannon on the first round, to get a free TL. Then next round shoot with their primary weapon. With a little luck and good flying you should be at range 1, since you know exactly where your Ion'ed opponent will be.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

I'm just waiting for someone with Roark to beat the stuffing out of Whisper or Echo at a Regionals. Something as simple as:

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent

3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors

Unless you can dodge all THREE B-wing arcs, your Phantom will get shot at by 3 dice with focus, and you have only 2 agility. It'll still take a couple rounds of fire to take it down, but it's far less scary.

I like that. It's the getting a shot at all that is somewhat difficult.

With three diverging arcs, it usually isn't difficult to get a shot. The trick is to keep Roark alive long enough to get that shot in several consecutive rounds.

The only thing I can think is FCS and an ion on a b might be better anti phantom tech. The phantom does not like the ion.

Yup. 3 dice + focus vs 2 dice + focus is a 70% chance to land the hit and give it an Ion token.

Here's a nice control list:

100 points

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret

2x Blue Squadron Pilot + Fire Control System + Ion Cannon

Blue Squadron Pilot

B's can use the Ion Cannon on the first round, to get a free TL. Then next round shoot with their primary weapon. With a little luck and good flying you should be at range 1, since you know exactly where your Ion'ed opponent will be.

I might even drop the Fire Control for an Ion Cannon on each Blue. If I'm flying the ACD Phantom and I'm going to get caught in someone's arc, I can probably make it the ship that cannot ionize me.

For the record, my build is:

Boba w/VI

Tactician

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Tactician

Ion Cannon

I'll admit, I'm not in love with the first OMG. He has what he has in case the two get flanked and Boba can't cover. I think the second is scary as all get-out and helps people remember that the shuttles need to be dealt with. People hate Ion-stress. The staying power of an OMG if I choose to go whole hog after the phantom and take an initial salvo is hard to pass on as well.

This is interesting.

what about something like...

Bobba+VI+Tactician+EU (46)

OGP+adv.sensors+Tactician+EU (30)

OGP+Vader (24)

u dont have the ion cannon but u get vader as a sledgehammer versus their support craft and with two ships with tactician u r likely go get some lockdown on anything u get a shot on.

For the record, my build is:

Boba w/VI

Tactician

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Advanced Sensors

Engine Upgrade

OMG

Tactician

Ion Cannon

I'll admit, I'm not in love with the first OMG. He has what he has in case the two get flanked and Boba can't cover. I think the second is scary as all get-out and helps people remember that the shuttles need to be dealt with. People hate Ion-stress. The staying power of an OMG if I choose to go whole hog after the phantom and take an initial salvo is hard to pass on as well.

This is interesting.

what about something like...

Bobba+VI+Tactician+EU (46)

OGP+adv.sensors+Tactician+EU (30)

OGP+Vader (24)

u dont have the ion cannon but u get vader as a sledgehammer versus their support craft and with two ships with tactician u r likely go get some lockdown on anything u get a shot on.

Vader's autodamage will be a key anti phantom tool. especially when decimator comes out.

Rebel Aces list: high Pilot Skill club. 3 ships shooting at PS10+. Very wonky list. Low firepower but reasonable durability and ridiculous PS. Shoots at PS 12/12/10/3 or 12/12/10/4. Phantoms have to dodge all 4 primary firing arcs, and Roark's range 2 Ion Turret, to avoid getting shot at before cloaking. Against traditional lists like swarms it will need to leverage its high PS to take out priority targets like Howlrunner or Wedge first.

100

Tycho + VI + PtL + Refit (28)

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent (25)

Green + PtL + Swarm Tactics + Refit (22)

Tarn + R7 (25)

Roark passes PS12 to the green, who then passes PS12 to Roark or Tarn.

Positioning is huge in Phantom use and control. Partnering someone like Airen Cracken has been a huge help when he has mobile ships to complement. Shoot at anyone, pass along a free action to a mobile ship who suddenly barrel rolls or boosts to have a shot at the Phantom, or escapes the Phantom's shot, depending on how your PS/initiative works out. Same thing with Squad Leader on high PS types that can send a ship spinning towards the Phantom. Hell, DECOY was probably invented just to give the Phantom a surprise once in awhile when it thinks it's safe.

My point? There are tons of tactics/combos yet to be tried. I don't feel like I'm a hostage waiting for the "Phantom Menace" to go away. Not at all.

One thing I really haven't seen discussed is the tactic of preventing the decloak, especially with Whisper.

While you don't know where a phantom will end up, you can figure out where it's first stop on the flippy-train will be, and get in the way. If an asteroid blocks one or more of the options, all the better.

My anti-phantom list that I have yet to try out

Roark

+blaster

+MC

+Recon

Cracken

+swarm

2x Blues

+Adv. Sens.

Can pass PS buffs around and try and barrel roll a B into arc after Cracken has shot. Again, haven't gotten to play a phantom player, but I think this might work out. I have a couple games with this list and it works for me. And I know I could drop down to an Ion, but I want to keep my damage potential high. Side note-the focus factory is surprisingly hard to kill.

My anti-phantom list that I have yet to try out

Roark

+blaster

+MC

+Recon

Cracken

+swarm

2x Blues

+Adv. Sens.

Can pass PS buffs around and try and barrel roll a B into arc after Cracken has shot. Again, haven't gotten to play a phantom player, but I think this might work out. I have a couple games with this list and it works for me. And I know I could drop down to an Ion, but I want to keep my damage potential high. Side note-the focus factory is surprisingly hard to kill.

The Cracken trick is really effective. I've been caught off guard by it before.

I've flown and flown against the Phantom. Without ACD, its merely a really good ship. ACD is broken. I've said so on TeamCovenant.

The best Anti-Phantom list I can come up with is:

Chewie w/ Predator, Han Solo and Gunner, accompanied by 4 Bandits.

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/95465/anti-phantom

I tried C-3PO but i just didn't like him. Everyone guns for Chewie who should live through a couple rounds of shooting to take out the Phantom and the Bandits mop up. I really like this list but dislike it because I built it to go against Phantoms.

We'll see though. My current league tournament list is:

Cracken w/ Swarm, 1 Blue, 1 Rookie, 3 Bandits.

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/61112/release-the-cracken

It came close to beating Ricky's(Kelvan) Echo list. ACD just kept all my shots away especially with Sensor Jammer.

Again, I don't think the Phantom or it's pilots are broken, just ACD. ACD should say "if you hit with an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." I dunno. Just not happy with this new meta. We'll see.

Sly was actually the creator of the z95 list we spotlighted.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

It isn't ACD that's broken. 4 AGI on a 4 HP ship as expensive as the Phantom is completely reasonable. If the ACD gets nuked, the Phantom goes in the other direction: unplayable against any turret or high-PS list. If you're getting 3- and 4-die attacks on a cloaked Phantom, you're doing well, and you will take it down.

What's broken is the hyper-mobility of the Phantom -- especially, but not exclusively, Echo -- and I'm genuinely shocked it got through playtesting without an expert re-positioning player throwing a red flag. The problem is that a 2-maneuver to decloak is the perfect distance to maximize the Phantom's options.

If it had been a 1-maneuver, the board coverage would be maybe a quarter of what it is now, and it would have limited the Phantom's ability to plan multiple escape/attack/turtle contingencies.

If it were a 3-maneuver, the board-coverage for the Phantom would be as great, but it would be more widely dispersed, resulting in more non-optimized decloak-attack sequences. Also, a 3-maneuver would certainly result in more blocked decloak lanes.

A 2-maneuver is the best of all possible worlds, allowing the Phantom to be nearly anywhere within half the board, rotated up to 135 degrees. It's insane.

The thing is, if so many of us are right (hey, maybe we're not!), and the Phantom is going to dominate and anti-dominate the meta, I don't know how the hyper-mobility is reined in within the means FFG is comfortable using.

If it were me -- or had been me -- I would have made decloak a 1-straight, and given Echo the option of a 1-straight or 3-straight.

One thing I really haven't seen discussed is the tactic of preventing the decloak, especially with Whisper.

While you don't know where a phantom will end up, you can figure out where it's first stop on the flippy-train will be, and get in the way. If an asteroid blocks one or more of the options, all the better.

Or a Proximity Mine I'm still trying to get people on board with me about this idea.

My anti-phantom list that I have yet to try out

Roark

+blaster

+MC

+Recon

Cracken

+swarm

2x Blues

+Adv. Sens.

Can pass PS buffs around and try and barrel roll a B into arc after Cracken has shot. Again, haven't gotten to play a phantom player, but I think this might work out. I have a couple games with this list and it works for me. And I know I could drop down to an Ion, but I want to keep my damage potential high. Side note-the focus factory is surprisingly hard to kill.

I like how Cracken and Roak work together. I think they are a great team. I would load Roak out differently. I would build Roak like this.

Roak + Ion + Intel Agent + Engine

Now you can use Cracken to Swarm Roak, and Have her Boost into Range 2 of your Phantom. Intel Agent can also help set up some blocking options.

My anti-phantom list that I have yet to try out

Roark

+blaster

+MC

+Recon

Cracken

+swarm

2x Blues

+Adv. Sens.

Can pass PS buffs around and try and barrel roll a B into arc after Cracken has shot. Again, haven't gotten to play a phantom player, but I think this might work out. I have a couple games with this list and it works for me. And I know I could drop down to an Ion, but I want to keep my damage potential high. Side note-the focus factory is surprisingly hard to kill.

I like how Cracken and Roak work together. I think they are a great team. I would load Roak out differently. I would build Roak like this.

Roak + Ion + Intel Agent + Engine

Now you can use Cracken to Swarm Roak, and Have her Boost into Range 2 of your Phantom. Intel Agent can also help set up some blocking options.

Not sure this has enough oomph for a normal list.