So based on those 4 regionals ( small sample size I know), if your not running a named Falcon or Phantom your hosed.

So based on those 4 regionals ( small sample size I know), if your not running a named Falcon or Phantom your hosed.

This is why we are upset. Yes this is a small sample size, I'm curious to see if this trend continues or not.

So based on those 4 regionals ( small sample size I know), if your not running a named Falcon or Phantom your hosed.

To be more specific: a named Falcon with Gunner, or a named Phantom with VI + ACD.

MajorJuggler, I have to say that you rock! It can't be easy to collect all this information. Thanks for doing this.

MajorJuggler, I have to say that you rock! It can't be easy to collect all this information. Thanks for doing this.

Yeah, it's a labor of love. Go to the thread, download the 42MB Excel file, look it over, and you'll be even more impressed, ha ha ha!

It's getting to the point that entering it into a legitimate database might be less work. It would be really nice someday to make a web UI where you could select however you wanted, by wave / week / etc, and it could spit out the results and stats automatically. It's psuedo-automatic in my Excel spreadsheet.

Great show guys! I really enjoy listening every time a new episode drops.

In regards to the Phantom, I've only flew times, mainly because I prefer the Defender, but I think people are over reacting to the Phantom and I think the tournament results posted above don't prove that much simply because it is still extremely new with a steep learning curve, in the sense that it is hard to master flying BOTH with and against it. Time will tell, but these results only confirm the hard counters to two separate issues that each side has been having with the other (Rebels -> Phantom, Imperials -> Turrets).

With all this said, I'd be okay with FFG banning ACD but only if they would bump the Phantom's base Agility to 3 instead of 2, otherwise it would be way too squishy. This would also help the lower skilled Phantom's get more play and hopefully balance things out in general.

Great show guys! I really enjoy listening every time a new episode drops.

In regards to the Phantom, I've only flew times, mainly because I prefer the Defender, but I think people are over reacting to the Phantom and I think the tournament results posted above don't prove that much simply because it is still extremely new with a steep learning curve, in the sense that it is hard to master flying BOTH with and against it. Time will tell, but these results only confirm the hard counters to two separate issues that each side has been having with the other (Rebels -> Phantom, Imperials -> Turrets).

With all this said, I'd be okay with FFG banning ACD but only if they would bump the Phantom's base Agility to 3 instead of 2, otherwise it would be way too squishy. This would also help the lower skilled Phantom's get more play and hopefully balance things out in general.

The problem is that “it’s a steep learning curve to fly” isn’t a balancing factor. The people that can fly it consistently well will dominate with it, shaping the meta for everybody else who can’t fly with it consistently well.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to ACD. I really don't like the idea of banning cards. I also don't want to make the ship unplayable. I think it's an extremely fun ship to fly.

So based on those 4 regionals ( small sample size I know), if your not running a named Falcon or Phantom your hosed.

This is why we are upset. Yes this is a small sample size, I'm curious to see if this trend continues or not.

It would be surprising if it was not the case that named Phantoms and Falcons lead the winner lists, considering they are the ones leading the participant lists...

MajorJuggler thanks for crunching all the information. Really does help looking at moving forward in the tournament season.

Also I find it interesting that Tie swarm hasnt won one since wave 4 came online. Is this because its not as strong or because the swarm players have a new favorite toy?

I'm not sure what the right answer is to ACD. I really don't like the idea of banning cards. I also don't want to make the ship unplayable. I think it's an extremely fun ship to fly.

I'm still not positive what needs/should be done to ACD, but I was expecting a point cost of 6+ when it was initially spoiled, just based on the improved stat line MathWing, let alone the free barrel-roll-esque decloak.

One idea would be to increase the cost from 4 to 6, and at the end of the text add: "Then gain one stress token". But I'm not sold either way until we see how the meta settles out. Rebel Captive and other stress mechanics hard conter the Phantom, and 3 attack Turret + Gunner is something halfway between a hard and soft counter.

I listened to the cast last night. Seriously, you guys were reading my brain waves. I was in voidestate yesterday (before listening to the podcast) looking at 58 points for Dash + PtL + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Engine Upgrade + Kyle Katarn, and trying to figure out what to do with the remaining 3 points after getting 3 Talas. (Ion Pulse Missile?)

Technically you guys were first because it was recorded a while ago. Still crazy...

I also really liked the idea of Rebel Captive on a Phantom. It got me thinking about a counter-build:

99 points

Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS

Soontir Fel + PtL

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Engine Upgrade

Soontir shoots at Rebel Captive instead of Whisper. Problem solved. Rebel Captive on Whisper throws a huge monkey wrench into other Phantoms without PS8/9 support to shoot before the Phantom, and Rebel Captive also messes with high PS ships with PtL. Like, for example, PtL YT-1300 Gunner builds that would otherwise counter the Phantom.

FCS and Lambda are there to counter low agility turret ships that are the bane on Phantoms. This is all theory crafting, of course.

MajorJuggler thanks for crunching all the information. Really does help looking at moving forward in the tournament season.

Also I find it interesting that Tie swarm hasnt won one since wave 4 came online. Is this because its not as strong or because the swarm players have a new favorite toy?

Thanks, a lot of other people seem to think so too, it's at 27,000 views, 4th all time on this forum. At the current rate, it'll be #2 sometime around week 13 of Regionals, behind only Rodent's legendary painting thread.

Well actually I got that from Theorist...

I pasted the results in a spreadsheet and color coded the results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bXlYTwNtQj0c5PHApr2pZa-yYjJ--c4yvapv-Pzf7nQ/edit?usp=sharing

Sure, the winners were exclusively Falcons or named Phantoms. But plenty of both lost out, too. I think it's a it of a self-fulfilling prophecy, and everybody is excited about Phantoms at this point. Just like everybody flew B-Wings after wave 3...

I pasted the results in a spreadsheet and color coded the results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bXlYTwNtQj0c5PHApr2pZa-yYjJ--c4yvapv-Pzf7nQ/edit?usp=sharing

Sure, the winners were exclusively Falcons or named Phantoms. But plenty of both lost out, too. I think it's a it of a self-fulfilling prophecy, and everybody is excited about Phantoms at this point. Just like everybody flew B-Wings after wave 3...

That was because B wings are mathematically superior to x wings, the phantom is pretty darned superior to the rest of the field.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to ACD. I really don't like the idea of banning cards. I also don't want to make the ship unplayable. I think it's an extremely fun ship to fly.

I'm still not positive what needs/should be done to ACD, but I was expecting a point cost of 6+ when it was initially spoiled, just based on the improved stat line MathWing, let alone the free barrel-roll-esque decloak.

One idea would be to increase the cost from 4 to 6, and at the end of the text add: "Then gain one stress token". But I'm not sold either way until we see how the meta settles out. Rebel Captive and other stress mechanics hard conter the Phantom, and 3 attack Turret + Gunner is something halfway between a hard and soft counter.

I listened to the cast last night. Seriously, you guys were reading my brain waves. I was in voidestate yesterday (before listening to the podcast) looking at 58 points for Dash + PtL + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Engine Upgrade + Kyle Katarn, and trying to figure out what to do with the remaining 3 points after getting 3 Talas. (Ion Pulse Missile?)

Technically you guys were first because it was recorded a while ago. Still crazy...

I also really liked the idea of Rebel Captive on a Phantom. It got me thinking about a counter-build:

99 points

Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS

Soontir Fel + PtL

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Engine Upgrade

Soontir shoots at Rebel Captive instead of Whisper. Problem solved. Rebel Captive on Whisper throws a huge monkey wrench into other Phantoms without PS8/9 support to shoot before the Phantom, and Rebel Captive also messes with high PS ships with PtL. Like, for example, PtL YT-1300 Gunner builds that would otherwise counter the Phantom.

FCS and Lambda are there to counter low agility turret ships that are the bane on Phantoms. This is all theory crafting, of course.

My dash build currently...

I'm not sure what the right answer is to ACD. I really don't like the idea of banning cards. I also don't want to make the ship unplayable. I think it's an extremely fun ship to fly.

I'm still not positive what needs/should be done to ACD, but I was expecting a point cost of 6+ when it was initially spoiled, just based on the improved stat line MathWing, let alone the free barrel-roll-esque decloak.

One idea would be to increase the cost from 4 to 6, and at the end of the text add: "Then gain one stress token". But I'm not sold either way until we see how the meta settles out. Rebel Captive and other stress mechanics hard conter the Phantom, and 3 attack Turret + Gunner is something halfway between a hard and soft counter.

I listened to the cast last night. Seriously, you guys were reading my brain waves. I was in voidestate yesterday (before listening to the podcast) looking at 58 points for Dash + PtL + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Engine Upgrade + Kyle Katarn, and trying to figure out what to do with the remaining 3 points after getting 3 Talas. (Ion Pulse Missile?)

Technically you guys were first because it was recorded a while ago. Still crazy...

I also really liked the idea of Rebel Captive on a Phantom. It got me thinking about a counter-build:

99 points

Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS

Soontir Fel + PtL

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Engine Upgrade

Soontir shoots at Rebel Captive instead of Whisper. Problem solved. Rebel Captive on Whisper throws a huge monkey wrench into other Phantoms without PS8/9 support to shoot before the Phantom, and Rebel Captive also messes with high PS ships with PtL. Like, for example, PtL YT-1300 Gunner builds that would otherwise counter the Phantom.

FCS and Lambda are there to counter low agility turret ships that are the bane on Phantoms. This is all theory crafting, of course.

I really like using Yorr as a way to protect my Phantoms from stress. Here's my Echo build

Echo + ACD + VI + Sensor Jammer + Rebel Captive ( Not set on Sensor Jammer )

Yorr + FCS + Tactician + Gunner

x2 AP

I use the AP's to block for action denial which helps protect Echo. If I'm against some one else with RC then Yorr can steal the stress and protect the cloak action. I also really like the buzz saw + tactician combo.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to ACD. I really don't like the idea of banning cards. I also don't want to make the ship unplayable. I think it's an extremely fun ship to fly.

I'm still not positive what needs/should be done to ACD, but I was expecting a point cost of 6+ when it was initially spoiled, just based on the improved stat line MathWing, let alone the free barrel-roll-esque decloak.

One idea would be to increase the cost from 4 to 6, and at the end of the text add: "Then gain one stress token". But I'm not sold either way until we see how the meta settles out. Rebel Captive and other stress mechanics hard conter the Phantom, and 3 attack Turret + Gunner is something halfway between a hard and soft counter.

I listened to the cast last night. Seriously, you guys were reading my brain waves. I was in voidestate yesterday (before listening to the podcast) looking at 58 points for Dash + PtL + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Engine Upgrade + Kyle Katarn, and trying to figure out what to do with the remaining 3 points after getting 3 Talas. (Ion Pulse Missile?)

Technically you guys were first because it was recorded a while ago. Still crazy...

I also really liked the idea of Rebel Captive on a Phantom. It got me thinking about a counter-build:

99 points

Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS

Soontir Fel + PtL

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Engine Upgrade

Soontir shoots at Rebel Captive instead of Whisper. Problem solved. Rebel Captive on Whisper throws a huge monkey wrench into other Phantoms without PS8/9 support to shoot before the Phantom, and Rebel Captive also messes with high PS ships with PtL. Like, for example, PtL YT-1300 Gunner builds that would otherwise counter the Phantom.

FCS and Lambda are there to counter low agility turret ships that are the bane on Phantoms. This is all theory crafting, of course.

I really like using Yorr as a way to protect my Phantoms from stress. Here's my Echo build

Echo + ACD + VI + Sensor Jammer + Rebel Captive ( Not set on Sensor Jammer )

Yorr + FCS + Tactician + Gunner

x2 AP

I use the AP's to block for action denial which helps protect Echo. If I'm against some one else with RC then Yorr can steal the stress and protect the cloak action. I also really like the buzz saw + tactician combo.

Jammer is an excellent anti gunner device. Basically anything that keeps that phantom alive longer, throw on it.

I 1v3'd a defender, another Echo, and a shuttle with a 1 hp Echo Vi, Jammer, captive, and ACD.

In theory I really like Recon Spec on Echo, so you have another focus token for defense.

In theory, I also like Whisper for tournaments far more, since you're able to handle PS9 with an initiative bid, which is becoming very common.

The best counter to Echo is Whisper so Im sure well see him much more than Echo. Thats also forcing the rest of the field to bid high if they hope to counter Whisper.

I pasted the results in a spreadsheet and color coded the results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bXlYTwNtQj0c5PHApr2pZa-yYjJ--c4yvapv-Pzf7nQ/edit?usp=sharing

Sure, the winners were exclusively Falcons or named Phantoms. But plenty of both lost out, too. I think it's a it of a self-fulfilling prophecy, and everybody is excited about Phantoms at this point. Just like everybody flew B-Wings after wave 3...

That was because B wings are mathematically superior to x wings, the phantom is pretty darned superior to the rest of the field.

No, that was because B-Wings were considered to be mathematically superior to X-Wings. The usage stats of these two ships in the posted wave 4 lists:

1. B-wing 8.16%
2. X-wing 6.89%

If what you say would be true, they'd be nowhere near as close to each other. B-Wings were the hot new thing that everybody wanted to try out. Phantoms are the hot new thing that everybody wants to try out now.

No, that was because B-Wings were considered to be mathematically superior to X-Wings. The usage stats of these two ships in the posted wave 4 lists:

1. B-wing 8.16%
2. X-wing 6.89%

If what you say would be true, they'd be nowhere near as close to each other. B-Wings were the hot new thing that everybody wanted to try out. Phantoms are the hot new thing that everybody wants to try out now.

Looking at only non-named pilots tells a different story:

( These are all weighted averages: attendance / squad placement )

1. YT-1300 (named) 40.95%
2. Z-95 18.23%
3. TIE Fighter 15.84%
4. B-wing 11.31%
5. Firespray 5.05%
6. X-wing 2.70%
7. Lambda Shuttle 2.66%
8. TIE Interceptor 1.26%
9. TIE Phantom 0.71%
10. E-wing 0.51%
11. TIE Bomber 0.44%
12. Y-wing 0.35%

• YT-1300 (ORS) 0.00%
• A-wing 0.00%
• HWK-290 0.00%
• TIE Advanced 0.00%
• TIE Defender 0.00%

1. YT-1300 29.54%
2. TIE Fighter 17.10%
3. Z-95 13.33%
4. TIE Phantom 11.35%
5. B-wing 8.16%
6. X-wing 6.89%
7. Firespray 5.83%
8. TIE Interceptor 4.02%
9. Lambda Shuttle 1.92%
10. HWK-290 0.51%
11. TIE Defender 0.41%
12. E-wing 0.37%
13. TIE Bomber 0.31%
14. Y-wing 0.25%

• A-wing 0.00%
• TIE Advanced 0.00%

1. Chewbacca 15.83%
2. Whisper 8.09%
3. Han Solo 7.64%
4. Lando Calrissian 6.07%
5. Howlrunner 5.16%
6. Biggs Darklighter 3.26%
7. Echo 2.75%
8. Soontir Fel 1.90%
9. Krassis Trelix 1.75%
10. Carnor Jax 1.21%
11. Luke Skywalker 0.93%
12. Roark Garnet 0.51%
13. Tarn Mison 0.45%
14. Kath Scarlet 0.44%
15. Rexler Brath 0.41%
16. Backstabber 0.32%
17. Wedge Antilles 0.29%
18. Mauler Mithel 0.19%
19. Lieutenant Blount 0.18%

Cliff notes:

• Vanilla X-wings have been replaced by vanilla Z-95's.
• Vanilla B-wings are still OK.
• E-wings and Defenders aren't really getting used.
• ACD Phantoms are very powerful, until they run into higher PS or Gunner turrets.

So far all of my wave 4 MathWing predictions are coming true...

I'll reserve my judgement until after my regional (madness), and have played against a proper opponent flying one. I will say that my intial thought was"this thing has 4 attk dice and will be impossible to pin down". Couple that with a sensor and crew spot, it seems to me to be the best ship on either side. I've trusted FFG up until now. I'll chime in after the 19th.

I really do think this is an important discussion to be had.

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

Has anyone used any interesting non turret counters to the phanom?

I'm just waiting for someone with Roark to beat the stuffing out of Whisper or Echo at a Regionals. Something as simple as:

Roark + Ion Cannon Turret + Intelligence Agent

3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors

Unless you can dodge all THREE B-wing arcs, your Phantom will get shot at by 3 dice with focus, and you have only 2 agility. It'll still take a couple rounds of fire to take it down, but it's far less scary.

Edit: technically that list has a turret on Roark, but the real point is shooting at PS12. The Ion is nice, but 3 offense dice against 4 defense dice isn't very good odds.

3A + F vs 4D + F: 27% chance to hit

3A + F vs 4D: 60% chance to hit

This is why Gunner is so powerful on a YT-1300, by the way. Once the focus tokens are gone, 4 agility is far less menacing. Gunner helps force token removal or taking one damage.