For me, a huge part of this game is planning my moves to be outside of my enemies firing arc, while at the same time positionng myself to be in the correct range and angle to attack them.

(With) Turrets... you could close your eyes, spin that dial, and as long as you don't fly off the edge or land on an asteroid, if they can shoot you, you can shoot them. It removes any kind of maneuvering strategy.

Bottom line? Turrets take away a huge part of the game for me.

So I don't fly them.

But that's a personal thing. I don't expect every other player to play the same way.

Admiral Thrawn,

It is clear, as you say, that you do not fly fighters with turrets; if you DID, you would know the fallacy of that statement. As someone who flies both Rebs and Imps, I know the thrill and challenge you speak of, when going on the hunt with a flock of Interceptors. I also know, that I have to consider carefully, what maneuvers I pick for my Y-wings (for example), as they are not the most maneuverable or fast fighters out there. I am less concerned about keeping enemies in my frontal arc (if I have a turret) as I am about not running into things (like asteroids, other ships and the board edge) and maintaining optimal range (to friends, as well as enemies) and trying to avoid the firing arcs of enemy ships, which nearly always have a speed and maneuverability (and increasingly frequently a firepower advantage, as well). So, a you see, it is not as simple as you say but then, again, you would not know that as you have never experienced it.

All that said, I understand that certain ships fit certain play styles and we all get our jollies in our own way. My only bit of advice would be to paraphrase that Native American saying about not criticizing someone until you have walked a mile in their moccasins. In other words, try flying some turret ships, if only to better know your opponent.

Fly Casual

I believe you misread that post, it wasn't mine. I also explained in my original post that I do have some, although limited experience with turrets and the falcon. I understand that its a strategy with its own ups and downs, I'm just asking if it takes some of the fun out of the game for some people in addition to myself, and many of these posts say it does.

Many post do indeed state the OPINION that it reduces the fun.

But I'd like to add for my very own opinion that I do not mind the RB1-2 turrets.

I love turrets. They are part of what makes the two factions feel different. Likewise with ion, bombs and cloaking devices. I'd like to see more 'one side only' tricks. It's sad that imps are getting a turret. Removes a bit of that flavour.

Here's my killer 100 point, non YT list that can kill anything, right? Well, except Carnor Jax and Dark Curse... Don't bring them okay? They ruin the fun.

Horton Salm (40)
Y-Wing (25), R2-D6 (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Proton Torpedoes (4), Blaster Turret (4), Munitions Failsafe (1), Deadeye (1)

Kyle Katarn (32)
HWK-290 (21), Veteran Instincts (1), Blaster Turret (4), Recon Specialist (3), Moldy Crow (3)

Gold Squadron Pilot (28)
Y-Wing (18), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Ion Cannon Turret (5)

I disagree with the basic premise of the post.

If you have a falcon, or any ship with a turret....you are still maneuvering for position. You have to position into range 2 if you are using the HWK or y-wing. And with the falcon, you are trying to get OUT of their arcs. Yes it changes what your plan is, but choosing a move requires just as much thought and skill. You are trying to block..or not get blocked. And a good falcon pilot will rip you apart, but a bad one will just get focused down in 2 rounds.

Ions on the other hand can be frustrating. I do agree with that. But I don't think they have so much impact on the game to make it not fun on the whole. You can't take very many of them, or you are limiting your damage output too much. And so once in a while getting Ioned is not so bad, and it adds a strategic choice....do you focus the ion support ship first to keep your own mobility, or do you focus the damage dealer?

It is clear, as you say, that you do not fly fighters with turrets; if you DID, you would know the fallacy of that statement.

Assuming "He doesn't like turrets because he has never flown with them" is as idiotic as assuming "He doesn't like onions because he has never tried them."

I am less concerned about keeping enemies in my frontal arc (if I have a turret) as I am about not running into things (like asteroids, other ships and the board edge) and maintaining optimal range (to friends, as well as enemies) and trying to avoid the firing arcs of enemy ships, which nearly always have a speed and maneuverability (and increasingly frequently a firepower advantage, as well). So, a you see, it is not as simple as you say but then, again, you would not know that as you have never experienced it.

"Ships with turrets have to worry less about maneuverability"

is

"Ships with turrets have to worry about everything non-turret-equipped ships have to deal with, except for firing arcs."

I am pretty sure if you have ten things to worry about, and the next guy only has nine, that he has LESS to worry about. I am also pretty sure that the firing arc isn't just a minuscule part of this game.

Your argument against my opinion is invalid, as it seems you did not read/comprehend my post.

...if you DID, you would know the fallacy of your statement.

You disagree with me? Alright. That's fine.

You want to be a condescending ass then add "Fly Casual" at the end? Not on my watch.

Now, for the reading impaired, I am not/have not said that I think that turrets are overpowered, or need to be removed from the game, or are an "easy mode button," or anything else that I have NOT said. I have simply stated that they require less maneuverability than ships without turrets, which takes a bit of the fun out of the game FOR ME.

And for this reason, I do not like to fly with them.

It is clear, as you say, that you do not fly fighters with turrets; if you DID, you would know the fallacy of that statement.

It is extremely foolish to assume that I (or anyone here who dislikes turrets) have never flown a ship with a turret. I said that I don't fly ships with turrets, not that I have never flown ships with turrets. Quite the difference.

Assuming "He doesn't like turrets because he has never flown with them" is as idiotic as assuming "He doesn't like onions because he has never tried them."

I am less concerned about keeping enemies in my frontal arc (if I have a turret) as I am about not running into things (like asteroids, other ships and the board edge) and maintaining optimal range (to friends, as well as enemies) and trying to avoid the firing arcs of enemy ships, which nearly always have a speed and maneuverability (and increasingly frequently a firepower advantage, as well). So, a you see, it is not as simple as you say but then, again, you would not know that as you have never experienced it.

So, your argument against

"Ships with turrets have to worry less about maneuverability"

is

"Ships with turrets have to worry about everything non-turret-equipped ships have to deal with, except for firing arcs."

I am pretty sure if you have ten things to worry about, and the next guy only has nine, that he has LESS to worry about. I am also pretty sure that the firing arc isn't just a minuscule part of this game.

Your argument against my opinion is invalid, as it seems you did not read/comprehend my post.

...if you DID, you would know the fallacy of your statement.

You disagree with me? Alright. That's fine.

You want to be a condescending ass then add "Fly Casual" at the end? Not on my watch.

Now, for the reading impaired, I am not/have not said that I think that turrets are overpowered, or need to be removed from the game, or are an "easy mode button," or anything else that I have NOT said. I have simply stated that they require less maneuverability than ships without turrets, which takes a bit of the fun out of the game FOR ME.

And for this reason, I do not like to fly with them.

My apologies to any and all viewers who are taking this discussion waaaayyy to seriously. I never meant to treat anyone (or their opinion) with disrespect, merely stating that IF the OP had never tried flying turreted ships, that he should give it a try, on the chance that: a) he might actually find some small enjoyment from it, after all and b) he would learn how to better take them down ("know your enemy" kind of stuff). My understanding is that the OP had little/no experience doing such. No insult to the OP (or YOU, for that matter) intended.

As I stated in my post, I understand that each player has their own style and enjoys the game in their own way. Viva la difference!

Now, go have fun

The abundance of big turreted ships (falcon, decimator, outrider) in the game now (don't really mind ywings and hwks) has definitely made the game less fun for me. Not only does it mean your flying skills are less important as you can never be out of arc, but also the abundance of great upgrades for the turreted ships makes them super powerful and hard to kill.

I'm almost at the point where I feel you need to have either one of those 3 ships, a named acd phantom, or a 7-8 ship swarm to be pretty competitive lately. I like doing lists that I enjoy and are fun, but when I know they aren't as competitive now, it can be frustrating.

Big turrets run pretty contrary to a maneuver based game, if you ask me. Sure, maneuvering still factors, but only as to how the fattie gets to dodge all the little guys and all the little guys get to suck on fat lasers. They remove too much of the firing arc complexity, for my taste.

Imo, the turret should not be able to just casually plink away at whatever it fancies (especially given how massive the range ruler is relative to table space). If it were up to me, I'd have turrets declare which of four "firing arcs" they were facing at the end of the ship's maneuver and restrict how far they can turn (probably 90 degrees per activation). It would make the facing of the ship and the turret actually somewhat important to consider for the player flying it.

looking at it from a different perspective. Do i think turrets are the "easy" mode.. yes. but the ships they are on are COOL looking. seriously that is part of the game for me the Falcon just looks cool on the board and usually its me getting pummeled by it hmm thinking back it may not have been a falcon but it was something big. But its still cool looking and that's what actually attracted me to this game in the first place. It just looks cool. At first I was thinking what is this some kind of kids game as I stumbled across it at "Target" years ago. I thought the ships looked cool and bought it just for that. Then stumbled onto some X-wing boards including this one and found out its waaaay more than some simple kids game. As an old strategy/war game player and former starfleet battles player. i just loved the quality of the miniatures in the game..They were not cardboard chits or nondescript plastic or "white metal" chunks that you HAD to paint to even get them to look presentable. Now as for the Falcon i am looking forward to flying a Decimater or two against it and seeing what happens...LOL Yeah wont be a bunch of maneuvering going on but it should still be interesting and look really cool!! along those same lines that is another reason i like the game the ships are in SCALE!!!! or close to it... Ok sorry if i dragged this post off topic..lol

The abundance of big turreted ships (falcon, decimator, outrider) in the game now (don't really mind ywings and hwks) has definitely made the game less fun for me. Not only does it mean your flying skills are less important as you can never be out of arc, but also the abundance of great upgrades for the turreted ships makes them super powerful and hard to kill.

Knowing how to deal with those fat turreted ships is also a skill a good player has to master. Either by squad build or during the game. Only relying on arc dodgers (or any one type of ship) means you are going to find some hard counters to your squad. By diversifying your squad you are less likely to find the rock against your siccors.

For me I'm having the most fun is when I combine as many aspects of the game into one squad. Ion, turrets, arc dodgers, stress inducers, high agi low hp and low agi high hp ships, I like to include them all. This also means I have no clear nemesis and I have a decent chance of competing in every game.

The abundance of big turreted ships (falcon, decimator, outrider) in the game now (don't really mind ywings and hwks) has definitely made the game less fun for me. Not only does it mean your flying skills are less important as you can never be out of arc, but also the abundance of great upgrades for the turreted ships makes them super powerful and hard to kill.

Knowing how to deal with those fat turreted ships is also a skill a good player has to master. Either by squad build or during the game. Only relying on arc dodgers (or any one type of ship) means you are going to find some hard counters to your squad. By diversifying your squad you are less likely to find the rock against your siccors.

It's a great mindset to apply to squad building, but it's also incredibly hard to apply at the 100 point level.

The amount of table space relative to the number of ships makes it incredibly difficult to field a variety of balanced lists that don't involve a fair number of Ties or Zs, which is a pretty big deal since these giant turreted ships share a pretty big weakness to being bumped (both YTs lose their amazing maneuverability without actions to boost/roll).

I've noticed this when playing against Dash with Jake/Blue/Blue/Blount and after Blount got one-shot on turn one (dem dice) my only means of getting the Blues to catch Dash was gone which meant only Jakes had a chance to get close to him (and at 2 dice base after rockets, it was a long and painful road to downing him ).

Since I also play Warmachine, I'm no stranger to list match-up but that game has far more models on the table in a given game to try and alleviate the problem. X-wing avoided the problem by making it possible for every ship to damage one another (whereas in Warmachine, your rifleman will have zero chance of scratching the opposing giant robots without some kid of magical steroid) but the advent of giant, fast, turreted ships creates a new problem by out-speeding and trivially dodging non-interceptor small ships with no penalty.

Not to mention they "check" fast ships by basically wiping their ability to arc dodge out of the game, which strikes me as lazy and not entirely well planned. Really wish there was a turret turning mechanic in place (easily introduced through the use of a token that marks which way the turret is facing).

Don't necro 5 month old threads.

Necroing happens so much here and it's as if people don't realise they're doing it. How is it happening?

Don't try to kill disscusions that are still relevant. I'd rather see a 5 month old thread get revived than the umpteenth thread about the same subject.

It's a great mindset to apply to squad building, but it's also incredibly hard to apply at the 100 point level.

The amount of table space relative to the number of ships makes it incredibly difficult to field a variety of balanced lists that don't involve a fair number of Ties or Zs...

Challenge accepted! this is my current list that took fist at a local tourney.

Jake Farrell (24)
Push the Limit (3)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Outmaneuver (3)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Roark Garnet (19)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)
Advanced Sensors (3)

Rookie Pilot (21)
R3-A2 (2)

I certainly agree with reviving threads that still could be relevant instead of just rehashing all the same things over and over.

And the differences are?

For me, a huge part of this game is planning my moves to be outside of my enemies firing arc, while at the same time positionng myself to be in the correct range and angle to attack them.

Ion cannons don't really affect this. You get ironed, you get a "status effect" (kinda like "stun" or "poison" in other games). It sucks, but I think it's still a pretty fun part of the game, and can add a lot of strategy.

Turrets, on the other hand... Not so much. You could close your eyes, spin that dial, and as long as you don't fly off the edge or land on an asteroid, if they can shoot you, you can shoot them. It removes any kind of maneuvering strategy.

Bottom line? Turrets take away a huge part of the game for me.

So I don't fly them.

But that's a personal thing. I don't expect every other player to play the same way.

It's kind of like using a rocket launcher in a shooter video game.

Does it take skill? Nope.

But I can't really expect every other player to feel the same way.

So I have to ask.

If you play with a turret, do you win every game?

Turrets do require skill and good flying regardless. I guess if your not very good flying against one than ya it's no fun.

I've beaten numerous Han shoots first builds multiple times.

One game fir example, he kill echo right away, and I killed his escorts.

It was full health Han vs 4 ties which I won.

If turrets required no skill and you could just fly anywhere then I should have lost?

4 ties vs Han with the Falcon title, engine upgrade, and 3po to name some

I just made sure I blocked and action deny as much as possible.

Point being flying turret ships still require proper flying

I mean how could I have won right?

As far as I could tell he had both eyes open.

I think that is a poor mentality to have in this game.

"oh well that is just easy mode"

To me, there is no easy mode.

Fat Han is just as annoying as fel, echo, Coran,Tycho, dutch and Garven etc etc.

All ships have their own place, strength and weaknesses.

I kind of also get the feeling that the original poster in this thread likes to fly fast maneuverable ships. Which is why he probably doesn't like ships that lock you down. But... That's the point.

Xwing and bwing can't move like an Interceptor. So does that mean if someone wants to compete against fel or echo that they need to fly the same thing? No, they can take a hwk, and ywing, and couple of xwing. Now they have a fighting chance, possibly against whisper or whoever

I admit it can be annoying if someone picks a hard counter.

One game I flew a 3 ship rebel build. 2 ships with 2 agility, and 1 with 1 agility against dutch, roark and another ywing and hwk.

The entire game I did nothing but fly 1 straight. Not the the best game I had, but still came down to one ship each, but it's not to often you come across such a hard counter to something you are flying.

Sorry for the long rant, but the point of my story is all ships have their own place.

What's fun for some may not be fun for others, so think that while you may not like ywing and turrets others out there may feel the same about ships that you fly.

It's a two way street

turrets added to Y or HWK? No problem.

Still gives the option of avoiding them.

The Falcon? Bah.

If there is *one* thing I do not like is how the Falcon simply removes skill (manoeuvre) out of the game.

If only they had made it 'only' 3 red dice in front arc/2 dice at 360 degrees or even plain 2 dice at range 3.

(and reduce the cost of the Falcon of course!)

The number of named YT+Chewie in our local meta makes me a sad panda at times.

Time and time again no fancy outsmarting the opponent but shoving my Tie's down his throat at neck-break speeds and hope it'll be enough.

(mostly it is but fun? not after half a dozen times really)

Have some lists pre-made and when they say their flying a falcon, then just fly the swarm.

After awhile they may decide "hey I'm not winning with this so I'll try something else"

If someone complains, I'd say suck it up, that's how people feel playing against the falcon all the time

Again the statement saying it takes skill out of the game is completely wrong.

While it doesnt require a hard time to shoot at things, it still has to avoid obstacles, ships etc. Asteroids, and collision can still render them useless.

Having a fat Han sit on an asteroid for a turn is a lot of points doing nothing

If you can keep your distance they go down easy.

It's weird, I never see many Falcons, though I only play against the same few, but Falcons are not as easy as many think. They seem to die at times pretty easy, and can be equally annoying

If people in your area like to use Falcons so much, then just fly tie swarms and other hard counters.

Have some lists pre-made and when they say their flying a falcon, then just fly the swarm.

After awhile they may decide "hey I'm not winning with this so I'll try something else"

If someone complains, I'd say suck it up, that's how people feel playing against the falcon all the time

Again the statement saying it takes skill out of the game is completely wrong.

While it doesnt require a hard time to shoot at things, it still has to avoid obstacles, ships etc. Asteroids, and collision can still render them useless.

Having a fat Han sit on an asteroid for a turn is a lot of points doing nothing

If you can keep your distance they go down easy.

It's weird, I never see many Falcons, though I only play against the same few, but Falcons are not as easy as many think. They seem to die at times pretty easy, and can be equally annoying

Thing is; I'd like some more variety.

Can I shove a swarm down the YT-throat and win? Yes I can more often than not.

But is it fun for the umpteenth time? Nope.

For me, a huge part of this game is planning my moves to be outside of my enemies firing arc, while at the same time positionng myself to be in the correct range and angle to attack them.

Ion cannons don't really affect this. You get ironed, you get a "status effect" (kinda like "stun" or "poison" in other games). It sucks, but I think it's still a pretty fun part of the game, and can add a lot of strategy.

Turrets, on the other hand... Not so much. You could close your eyes, spin that dial, and as long as you don't fly off the edge or land on an asteroid, if they can shoot you, you can shoot them. It removes any kind of maneuvering strategy.

Bottom line? Turrets take away a huge part of the game for me.

So I don't fly them.

But that's a personal thing. I don't expect every other player to play the same way.

It's kind of like using a rocket launcher in a shooter video game.

Does it take skill? Nope.

But I can't really expect every other player to feel the same way.

So I have to ask.

If you play with a turret, do you win every game?

Turrets do require skill and good flying regardless. I guess if your not very good flying against one than ya it's no fun.

I've beaten numerous Han shoots first builds multiple times.

One game fir example, he kill echo right away, and I killed his escorts.

It was full health Han vs 4 ties which I won.

If turrets required no skill and you could just fly anywhere then I should have lost?

4 ties vs Han with the Falcon title, engine upgrade, and 3po to name some

I just made sure I blocked and action deny as much as possible.

Point being flying turret ships still require proper flying

I mean how could I have won right?

As far as I could tell he had both eyes open.

I think that is a poor mentality to have in this game.

"oh well that is just easy mode"

To me, there is no easy mode.

Fat Han is just as annoying as fel, echo, Coran,Tycho, dutch and Garven etc etc.

All ships have their own place, strength and weaknesses.

I kind of also get the feeling that the original poster in this thread likes to fly fast maneuverable ships. Which is why he probably doesn't like ships that lock you down. But... That's the point.

Xwing and bwing can't move like an Interceptor. So does that mean if someone wants to compete against fel or echo that they need to fly the same thing? No, they can take a hwk, and ywing, and couple of xwing. Now they have a fighting chance, possibly against whisper or whoever

I admit it can be annoying if someone picks a hard counter.

One game I flew a 3 ship rebel build. 2 ships with 2 agility, and 1 with 1 agility against dutch, roark and another ywing and hwk.

The entire game I did nothing but fly 1 straight. Not the the best game I had, but still came down to one ship each, but it's not to often you come across such a hard counter to something you are flying.

Sorry for the long rant, but the point of my story is all ships have their own place.

What's fun for some may not be fun for others, so think that while you may not like ywing and turrets others out there may feel the same about ships that you fly.

It's a two way street

Edit

Lol oh wow, this is an old thread, just notices the date on it

Throught this was néw

If people in your area like to use Falcons so much, then just fly tie swarms and other hard counters.

Have some lists pre-made and when they say their flying a falcon, then just fly the swarm.

After awhile they may decide "hey I'm not winning with this so I'll try something else"

If someone complains, I'd say suck it up, that's how people feel playing against the falcon all the time

Again the statement saying it takes skill out of the game is completely wrong.

While it doesnt require a hard time to shoot at things, it still has to avoid obstacles, ships etc. Asteroids, and collision can still render them useless.

Having a fat Han sit on an asteroid for a turn is a lot of points doing nothing

If you can keep your distance they go down easy.

It's weird, I never see many Falcons, though I only play against the same few, but Falcons are not as easy as many think. They seem to die at times pretty easy, and can be equally annoying

Thing is; I'd like some more variety.

Can I shove a swarm down the YT-throat and win? Yes I can more often than not.

But is it fun for the umpteenth time? Nope.

I only suggested flying something that they may find boring after awhile after they lose 10 times in a row.

Maybe they will switch it up.

Or

Just kindly ask them to fly something else instead of a falcon. Frankly no matter what your flying against it would get boring seeing the same thing over and over again.

Or

Maybe find some new opponents

I'm ok with turrets and ions, though I certainly understand why people don't like seeing them deployed on flying fortresses like the Falcon. I'm mostly a fan of 150 point play, but when I play 100, usually my friends and I use a random squad generator (we use Fab's) with ship emphasis, and then you are allowed to distribute any remaining points for upgrades.

Today's matchup?

Red Squadron Pilot

Gray Squadron with Ion Turret (very nice addition here)

Prototype Pilot Chaardan Refit

Prototype Pilot Chaardan Refit

Lieutenant Blount with Assault Missiles

vs.

Delta Squadron Pilot

Night Beast

Sigma Squadron Pilot

Gamma Squadron Pilot

Academy Pilot

The ion turret makes this battle awesome. Don't get lost too much in meta lists, there's a lot of fun to be had with this game. I'll be taking the Imperials in this one, and I like my chances if I can take that X-Wing down quickly. Need to keep my Phantom away from that Ion, and pick away at the flanks. This one is gonna be good!

I certainly agree with reviving threads that still could be relevant instead of just rehashing all the same things over and over.

And we have an exact example as to why you just start a new thread and not necro old ones as it is very easy to not notice and have posters responding to month old posts. This is forums 101.

I think turrets are needed for less manuverable ships and for thematic consistency, but they do diminish a player's pilot skill in terms of arc dodging, which in turn affects the dogfight feel of some matches. I would support turret weapons requiring a copilot to keep their 3 red dice at all range increments. A copilot (any copilot could qualify) or the use of a focus (as required for the turret blaster) seems fair for this ability and aim. Otherwise, without a copilot or the use of a focus to shoot 360 degrees, the accuracy should be reduced, such as having:

Range 1: 2 red dice if outside of firing arc

Range 2: 1 red dice if outside of firing arc

Range 3: 0 red dice if outside of firing arc

This would help the dogfight genre while still providing some balance and realism. It would also support putting a copilot on y-wings, which should have that option.

Ion cannons seem fairly priced to me and don't need a change. Firesprays also seem well balanced since they still allow arc dodging.