The Falcon is half your list, if you load it up to be useful. Taking it limits your overall firepower in total, in exchange for being able to cover more of the board, with again a single ship's firing arc. Sure it's 'easier' in that regard but you're paying for that ease. If you're up against one there's all sorts of things you can do to deal with it. Asteroids stop it from firing, and it's larger base makes them harder to avoid; learn to how set up, both the asteroids and your initial deployment to force them to come into play. Get close, and keep shooting. It's going to get get 4 dice, against one of your ships. How many extra dice are you going to be rolling against it, and it's still only one agility. Things like C-3P0 mitigate this to some extent, but roll enough hits and those shields and hull melt away. Want to corral it's movement? Get an ion token on it. Suddenly, with how far they move with even a 1 forward, the 1 agility YT doesn't just want to avoid rocks, it doesn't want to be facing the wrong direction when that second Ion token falls. And your rocket launcher analogy doesn't really pan out. I don't remember the rocket launchers in UT or the soldier in TF2 being boring instant win buttons you seem to think the YT is. And no, the AWP in Counter Strike isn't either, if it were I wouldn't be absolutely terrible with it...

I don't believe I said anything about turrets being unbeatable. I've flown against them plenty, and won against them plenty.

My post wasn't asking for ways to beat them, or claiming that they are "overpowered."

Just that they nullify the need to get your enemy inside your firing arc, and that takes away a pretty important (and fun) aspect of XWM for me.

So I don't fly them.

And the rocket launcher was an example. I'm not going to compare a bunch of video games in which RL's are "instant wins," There are plenty of games where one weapon is extremely powerful, and takes quite a bit less skill than the others. I could throw out examples or analogies till my fingers bled, and you could disagree with me all you want, but that's not the point.

Ion weapons do not bother me at all. Turrets do, only because I think they were poorly implemented (I also feel their mechanics further incourage Tie Swarm).

Imperials thrive on manuverability and doing everything they can to not get hit.

Rebel tend to be far more durable and have much greater crit protection.

Turrets come close to making the main strength of the imperials moot. Should there then not be a counterpart to the turret that does the same against rebel strengths?

They are part of the fun.

Broadly agree with the comments on here - I've little problem with the range 2 "bolt-on" turrets - you can hit them from outside their reach, and they're generally attached to something with the agility of a parapleigic wombat that can't protect itself even with the bonus die for long range.

The falcon is different. A 2-Die attack at range 3 is also dealable with, because ships which live and die by sabre-dancing fire arcs also usually have 3+ defence dice and evade. If I had to pick a specific bugbear it's the fact that they made the named ones 3 attack dice plus the combination of crew and pilot abilities means that han shoots first and essentially can't miss.

They're killable, and I wouldn't say they "ruin the fun of the game", but there is very much a feel of starting on the back foot. The decimator and outrider will, I suspect, be the same. The outrider with a turreted heavy laser cannon strikes me as something agility-based fighters really, really don't want to have to deal with. I like the idea of a ship with no range 1 attack, I hasten to add. A close-in blind spot is a cool idea and whilst it'd require some bloody nice manouvring to work, it feels right (much like the corvette's fore and aft blind spots at range 1-2)

I approve wholeheartedly of story-driven lists, and a 'Shadows Of The Empire' force consisting of the Falcon and the Outrider is perfectly in character, but I'd be nervous as hell taking one on with TIE fighters*...

* Note: I use five PS6 black squadron/named black squadron pilots rather than howlrunner and her academy class. Avoiding arcs of fire won't work, my improved PS means nothing because Dash and Han are better still, if I lose one TIE a turn against that firepower I'm not doing badly, and because the outrider has 2 agility and the falcon has 2 automatic evades on tap, hurting them's going to be a bugger.

Ion weapons do not bother me at all. Turrets do, only because I think they were poorly implemented (I also feel their mechanics further incourage Tie Swarm).

Imperials thrive on manuverability and doing everything they can to not get hit.

Rebel tend to be far more durable and have much greater crit protection.

Turrets come close to making the main strength of the imperials moot. Should there then not be a counterpart to the turret that does the same against rebel strengths?

I think you forget that turret ships are:

Costly

slow moving

low agility

while they are effective against highly mobile ships they take damage very easilyand you cant really justify more than a couple in any 1 list

ITT: Imperial Pilots don't like it up 'em.

I have a firespray but rarely use it because that rear arc is lethal to my friend and he's never managed to kill it even using the generic pilot.

But I've only once had issues with falcon and I put that down more to sleep deprivation than the turret I just sucked in general that day.

Do the turrets invalidate clever manoeuvres absolutely, do they break the game no.

Turrets just about make Y-wings worth taking IMHO as the B-wing makes a better heavy fight/fighter-bomber due to it's increased firepower and flipped hull/shield stats. I've used Dutch with an Ion cannon turret quite a few times now with mixed results. The turret gives me the ability to aim for flanks of formations or individual ships. My concerns are more about staying out of my opponants firing arc as my agility of one and three shields aren't going to hold up for very long if my opponant does manage to draw a bead on me.

IMO the advantages of the Ion turret are balanced out by it's drawbacks. It's got a short range. It's an expencive upgrade. Hitting agile ships is not guranteed. There will be times where you roll two hits and a critical when your opponant throws nothing but blank dice and it's on rather slow and vulnerable support ships (Y-wing and Hawk).

turrets added to Y or HWK? No problem.

Still gives the option of avoiding them.

The Falcon? Bah.

If there is *one* thing I do not like is how the Falcon simply removes skill (manoeuvre) out of the game.

If only they had made it 'only' 3 red dice in front arc/2 dice at 360 degrees or even plain 2 dice at range 3.

(and reduce the cost of the Falcon of course!)

The number of named YT+Chewie in our local meta makes me a sad panda at times.

Time and time again no fancy outsmarting the opponent but shoving my Tie's down his throat at neck-break speeds and hope it'll be enough.

(mostly it is but fun? not after half a dozen times really)

If the rebels didn't have turrets, we could have this same discussion about imperial interceptors. How they take all the fun out of the game since they always stay out of firing arcs, which takes all the fun out of the game for the rebels.

I like the variety and that there are lists to counter just about any other list. It keeps the game fun.

For casual play, I've house ruled no ION weapons. Tourney prep fly what you want.

In a standard 100pt list if you take a YT for it's 360 shooting and add upgrades, that's half your squad for a ship that still only fires once. I've seen players who think the YT is so powerful they plow ahead because they shoot anywhere. Playing against those more maneuverable imp ships that YT is off the board usually by turn 2. 360 attack does change the game but it doesn't give an advantage to the controlling player as they also have to adapt their gameplay.

Ion weapons are a nice change from just blasting away at your opponent. Again, not overpowered as you're only taking 1 damage. It's real power is playing against an opponent who has the vision to set up the next round when you drift 1 forward. This can actually become a problem for that player as an ion shot like any shot is not guaranteed to hit, and now his brilliant plan needs to be adjusted to compensate for a fully functioning ship.

turrets added to Y or HWK? No problem.

Still gives the option of avoiding them.

The Falcon? Bah.

If there is *one* thing I do not like is how the Falcon simply removes skill (manoeuvre) out of the game.

If only they had made it 'only' 3 red dice in front arc/2 dice at 360 degrees or even plain 2 dice at range 3.

(and reduce the cost of the Falcon of course!)

The number of named YT+Chewie in our local meta makes me a sad panda at times.

Time and time again no fancy outsmarting the opponent but shoving my Tie's down his throat at neck-break speeds and hope it'll be enough.

(mostly it is but fun? not after half a dozen times really)

Agreed. Since there's hardly any advantage to maintaining a specific range from the falcon, I often feel like maneuvering turn after turn is merely for the sake of following the rules. Sometimes I think, why don't we just keep the ships stationary and keep on rolling dice until we see who wins? Of course it's not quite that bad, but I do feel that way at times.

Han with gunner isn't going to miss very often and he always has a shot. I always know that I'm going to take at least one damage. I very rarely don't. This really hurts the viability of three or four imperial ship lists (excluding the Firespray, perhaps), and C3PO makes it even worse. A tie swarm is an obvious counter to this, but I don't think we need more game mechanics encouraging more tie swarm lists.

Regarding the phantom, I know it's a pain to deal with, and the existence of turrets are a fantastic, reasonable counter for it. But a falcon with gunner shooting before a phantom is an absolute hard counter. It's frustrating knowing that your 37 point ship is almost guaranteed to take damage if it wants to get a shot off. I often like to strategize on how to overcome a weakness I have against a particular list, but in this case, there isn't much to do other than to stay at range three so you get 1 extra green dice. Falcons may cost a lot and falcon lists have less firepower, but it really doesn't need much to quickly down a phantom. And if that's a named phantom, it's guaranteed to be more than a third of the points in that list. I suppose this is why we've seen phantoms run with a mini-swarm.

EDIT:

Oh, and the few times Han used expert handling to get out of *my* arc? Talk about insult to injury!

For casual play, I've house ruled no ION weapons. Tourney prep fly what you want.

NO ion weapons? That sounds awful. I love Ion Cannons. And really, Rebels are much more hurt by them than Imperials are. Since your damage caps at one, once you've rolled enough hit results to get through, you don't have to spend locks or tokens. Save focuses for defense. Since they have fewer agility, it's easier to do that. Plus there's only one Rebel ship released as of now that can still modify its position at all after moving (B-Wing with Barrel Roll), so the 1 forward is the most predictable for them.

For casual play, I've house ruled no ION weapons. Tourney prep fly what you want.

Wow, that seems a bit drastic. But, do what you need to do to have fun. It just pains me that you perceive Ions as such a joy kill.

Han + EH + Engine is the most fun I have in this game.

That one ship takes up 65% of my list with some other additional upgrades and creates a list that is so fragile that it blows up just by looking at it...but you have to be able to get me in arc. Maneuvering is a huge part of this list...I do everything I can to get out of your arcs and you try to keep me in yours.

Blaster Turret and Ion Cannon Turret I'm cool with because they pay for the full arc with a range reduction, meaning there's still a spot where you can shoot them and they can't shoot you. Not a fan of 360 turretships but they're either 1 or 0 agility (and thus can be reliably taken down with sustained, focused fire) or 2 dice.

The Falcon? Bah.

Given the price in points of a YT-1300 it better do what it does, or else no one would ever fly it.

The Falcon? Bah.

Given the price in points of a YT-1300 it better do what it does, or else no one would ever fly it.

You clearly missed the part where I noted that the YT should be (for game balance and fun) less 'easy mode' BUT at a point reduction.

(easy mode defined as 360 degree turret with 3 red dice plus arguably best dial in the game on top)

BUT at a point reduction.

My point is, that as is, it's balanced just fine. Yes the turret makes it easy to fly, but that doesn't mean you can just spin the dial and pick a random maneuver to make, you still have to think about where you're going and where everything else will be.

It's also only 1 shot per round, which may but most likely won't kill a tie each round. Yet people come here acting like you can fly the YT-1300 and kill Tie Swarms in 3 rounds with out even looking at the table.

The Falcon? Bah.

Given the price in points of a YT-1300 it better do what it does, or else no one would ever fly it.

You clearly missed the part where I noted that the YT should be (for game balance and fun) less 'easy mode' BUT at a point reduction.

(easy mode defined as 360 degree turret with 3 red dice plus arguably best dial in the game on top)

Your definition of easymode is predicated on the wrong way to fight a falcon. The falcon needs to be dodging most arcs every turn. it is capable of doing so. But looping behind it while maintaining fire and forcing it to K-Turn or collide and lose actions will murder it.

Normally I'm a huge fan of your posts Admiral, and I fully recognize your strategic brilliance. But in this regard I'd have to disagree with you. No measly turret or ion weapon can take away the fun of this game.

I tend to run a dual HWK build with Jan and Kyle to basically put Wedge on steroids. I still have some of the dog fighting strategery in that I have to fly Wedge well, and also sometimes flying an HWK just so through asteroids for cover isn't as easy as it sounds due to it's low maneuverability.

So far I don't think there any ships that are so OP that it takes away the fun. For me the "least" fun trick is the stress/ion combo from Hobbie/R3-A2, but if I'm dumb/unlucky enough to fall for that then that is my problem.

BUT at a point reduction.

Yes but point reductions don't happen in this game. So it's not really a valid point, not for something like the YT-1300 and such a fundamental change in how it works.

My point is, that as is, it's balanced just fine. Yes the turret makes it easy to fly, but that doesn't mean you can just spin the dial and pick a random maneuver to make, you still have to think about where you're going and where everything else will be.

It's also only 1 shot per round, which may but most likely won't kill a tie each round. Yet people come here acting like you can fly the YT-1300 and kill Tie Swarms in 3 rounds with out even looking at the table.

I don't think anybody claimed that it eats Tie Swarms. Those are an obvious counter. As I said previously, it just hurts the viability of smaller imperial ship lists whose defense relies at least partially on maneuvering. This includes the Tie Defender; a ship that FFG really made you pay top dollar for that 4 k-turn. Smaller ship lists also have less attacks per turn, making C3PO much more effective. Worst part is that there really isn't too much you can do to compensate strategically; falcon will always have a shot. People bring up that you're paying a lot for three attack dice, but this is a simplification. That one three dice attack will do more consistent damage than other three dice ships if you have your falcon equipped properly. And with a 360 degree firing arc, that shouldn't be understated.

BUT at a point reduction.

Yes but point reductions don't happen in this game. So it's not really a valid point, not for something like the YT-1300 and such a fundamental change in how it works.

My point is, that as is, it's balanced just fine. Yes the turret makes it easy to fly, but that doesn't mean you can just spin the dial and pick a random maneuver to make, you still have to think about where you're going and where everything else will be.

It's also only 1 shot per round, which may but most likely won't kill a tie each round. Yet people come here acting like you can fly the YT-1300 and kill Tie Swarms in 3 rounds with out even looking at the table.

I don't think anybody claimed that it eats Tie Swarms. Those are an obvious counter. As I said previously, it just hurts the viability of smaller imperial ship lists whose defense relies at least partially on maneuvering. This includes the Tie Defender; a ship that FFG really made you pay top dollar for that 4 k-turn. Smaller ship lists also have less attacks per turn, making C3PO much more effective. Worst part is that there really isn't too much you can do to compensate strategically; falcon will always have a shot. People bring up that you're paying a lot for three attack dice, but this is a simplification. That one three dice attack will do more consistent damage than other three dice ships if you have your falcon equipped properly. And with a 360 degree firing arc, that shouldn't be understated.

But lets put this into real perspective.

For the cost of Chewie with Gunner I can get 2 X/B-Wings. 2 X/B-Wings WAY outdamage that Chewie with Gunner. Beyond that they allow for the benefits of focus fire, that thing where you can kill a ship in one round. There's a reason 4 Ship Rebel builds and Tie Fighters dominated the last Meta. That Firepower was immense. Enough to Kill Shuttles in one round. Falcons in two.

3 Consistent Damage is very meh for 40+points. The Arc-Dodging potential of the Falcon is its saving grace, and good flyers can very much mitigate that. The reason it does so well right now is because of its performance against the Phantom until people learn to Phantom Trap and higher Firepower lists can do well again.

Imperial tears are so sweet, they taste delightful.

But really, if the Falcon really is so OMG WTF OP EZ MOAD BROEK PLZNERF, why is it that you so rarely see it dominating the top tables in tournament play?

Oh, that's right, because it's takes up almost half your squad points unmodified, and can quickly be crushed by sustained firepower, and can only engage one target at a time, and limits the number of support ships you can field...

Wow, what do you know - we have a balanced game. Who'da thunk it?