Can you clarify the timing / actions of replacement effects

e.g.

Darkstar - If Darkstar would be discarded

Aeron Damphair - If AD would be killed

I'm under the impression that such effects means the card go to moribund and then get redirected instead of moving to its final destination

If someone plays Valaar and AD is "killed", what happens? when does the effect occur (in this instance I would put another cup character in play when the replacement effect kicks in

I'm also thinking of what happens when you discard Darkstar from your hand to save a character from being killed (via Maester of the Sun) ... Darkstar enters play and gets killed in the next step

Why does this happen ... the replacement effect that puts Darkstar into play ...before characters are killed

Finally ... if you discard a card from your hand does it go into moribund or straight into the discard pile

thanks

Aeron Damphair (Kings of the Sea) becomes moribund->bottom of deck when he is killed, like Arya Stark (King's Landing) becomes moribund->shadows when she is killed. These replacement effects change the moribund destination.

Darkstar's (Princes of the Sun) case is different, since moribund only applies to cards leaving play. Cards moving into play or from one out-of-play area to another (discarded from the deck or put into shadows from the dead pile, for instance) go to their destinations immediately, though that destination can be changed (with a replacement effect like Darkstar's or Breaking and Entering's).

Thanks Khudzlin

What about event cards that are played ... do they sit in moribund whilst the event effect is taking place

e.g. Blessed by the Maiden ... I assume this would not be one of the cards that you could shuffle back into your deck if you have just played it and are triggering its affect

I suppose played event card enter and leave play

The FAQ describes event cards as entering a moribund state after they resolve. So when you play an event card, it does not enter moribund until it resolves and thus does not physically enter the discard pile until the end of the action window. That means Blessed by the Maiden cannot shuffle itself back into your deck because it is not in the discard pile to be chosen when it is initiated.

The fact that event cards do not become moribund until after they resolve is very important for things like He Calls It Thinking and other events that are put into play as attachments, characters, etc. If they became moribund as part of initiation, such event-turned-attachment type cards would enter play moribund and be placed in the discard pile at the end of the window anyway.

I'm also thinking of what happens when you discard Darkstar from your hand to save a character from being killed (via Maester of the Sun) ... Darkstar enters play and gets killed in the next step

Why does this happen ... the replacement effect that puts Darkstar into play ...before characters are killed

wasn't sure if this was a question or not, but felt like it could be explained anyways:

Assume it is summer and the Martell player has darkstar in hand and a Maester of the Sun in play. Also assume Valar has been revealed.

Step 1 Initiation - initiation the when revealed effect of VM

Step 2 Save/Cancel - Kneel MotS, discard Darkstar from hand (he enters play) and choose a character to save.

Step 3 Resolution - all eligible characters that were not saved or do not have "Cannot be Killed" are killed from Valar and become moribund:dead. This will include Darkstar as he is in play - and not "saved" - at the time of resolution.

Step 4 Passives

Step 5 Responses

Step 6 Clean up

I do have a question myself though. The ability of MotS is worded as such:

Response: If it is Summer, kneel Maester of the Sun and discard a card from your hand to save a House Martell character from being killed or discarded from play.

In the above scenario - can I choose Darkstar for the target of my save since he is in play at the time the "to save" would resolve or does he need to be present as an existing target when the effect is triggered?

Darkstar can be saved - you can use on MotS to put him into play and another to save him

Though I think you are asking whether Darkstar can be the target of the first save ... which is interesting

You pay the cost before choosing the target, so really I can't see why you should not be able to that ... all the boxes are ticked

I also ran into a query re MotS just a couple of hours ago - if I trigger him to save a character from a MIL claim, I assume he then stands for Vengeful ... as the Save occurs earlier in the framework than the passives that follow

Darkstar can be saved - you can use on MotS to put him into play and another to save him

Though I think you are asking whether Darkstar can be the target of the first save ... which is interesting

You pay the cost before choosing the target, so really I can't see why you should not be able to that ... all the boxes are ticked

I also ran into a query re MotS just a couple of hours ago - if I trigger him to save a character from a MIL claim, I assume he then stands for Vengeful ... as the Save occurs earlier in the framework than the passives that follow

Yes Darkstar can still be saved within that same Step 2 window. You are correct that I'm asking if he can be the target of the first save that put him into play. I think you have to have the eligible target first to initiate the effect, so I don't think it works but want to double check.

What is funny is if you manage to have 2 DS in hand and 2 MotS in play. Each MotS can discard a DS to save themselves, then you can discard the dupe of DS to save himself.

Yes, you are correct that Vengeful comes after saves, so he will stand after saving someone within a MIL challenge.

MotS is one of those effects where choosing the target it not clear

You obviously have the ability to save someone ... as MotS is alive and well ... but what dictates that you have to select him if there are more that one possible target after you pay the cost?

I use the Ashai Inititiate a lot ... discard 2 cards (from deck) to move a character from a dead to discard pile

Do you have to choose the target card before the discards / costs?

First, remember that MotS has no target because it does not use the word "choose." To answer, though, MotS does not let you put Darkstar into play to save himself from a global kill like Valar.

Generally speaking, when you initiate an effect, you do the following, in order (let's see if I can do this from memory...):

a. Determine the applicable cost (eg, Confession - are you using the "kneel character" or the "kneel influence" cost option)

b. Check play restrictions - including making sure that all required targets are available and eligible and whether the effect is anticipated to be successful (under the new FAQ 5.0 rule for triggered effects).

c. Identify and apply cost penalties (including modifiers to cost penalties, like Neutral House's reduction of OOH gold penalty)

d. Apply cost modifiers (eg, reducers)

e. Pay the cost

f. Choose targets and initiate effect.

So for the MotS/Darkstar question, you have to identify the character you plan to save as part of checking play restrictions -- well before paying the cost. That means the Darkstar in your hand that you plan to pay the cost with cannot be identified as the character to be saved because it is neither in play, nor in danger of being killed at that point. It does not satisfy the play restrictions for MotS when it is in your hand, so MotS cannot apply to it, even though it will enter play before MotS resolves .

That last, underlined part is also similar to a ruling we got relative to the FAQ 5.0 rule for triggered effects. The ruling says that the target that is ultimately chosen for the effect (in f) must be one that was identified as part of checking play restrictions (in b). This is why, for example, you cannot identify a standing character with a MIL icon when you check the play restrictions to play Distraction and conclude that the effect will resolve successfully, but then choose a different character with the MIL icon that is already kneeling when you actually choose the target for Distraction, making it resolve unsuccessfully.

That last bit answers Hast's question about Asshai Initiate: Even though the target is chosen after costs are paid (e vs. f), the target that you do choose must have been present before the cost was paid (b vs. e).

This appeals to my sense of logic, but do you have an official source for this ruling?

This appeals to my sense of logic, but do you have an official source for this ruling?

It's a tournament ruling from Nate, mentioned here by Bomb.

Additionally, it is a viable interpretation of the text of FAQ 5.0 ("If, given the current game state it is impossible (aside from cancels) for at least one aspect of the effect to resolve, the effect cannot be triggered." -- the phrase "current game state" can be read in this context as requiring the target to come out of the game state as it exists when the play restrictions are checked) as printed. It just wasn't the only possible interpretation, so we needed Nate to tell us which interpretation controlled.

good to know. Thanks for the clarifications.

Thanks.

I am beating a dead horse, but for the record(still), I can't figure out how to interpret that FAQ entry to work that way with Game of Cyvasse. I feel like no matter how much I read ktom's interpretation and even after talking with Nate, I just can't match "If, given the current game state it is impossible (aside from cancels) for at least one aspect of the effect to resolve, the effect cannot be triggered." to mean you can't trigger Game of Cyvasse when your opponent has a legal character to kneel for the effect. To me, that means it's not impossible to resolve the effect partially or completely because it CAN still change the game state.

However, I am conceding to the Senior Lead Game Designer on this one as being an official ruling.

Nate has said he will update the wording in an upcoming FAQ to leave no room for interpretation and clarify that the person triggering the effect must choose an eligible target upon which the effect will resolve successfully.

Great to hear. Thanks ktom.

1. Saves happen before resolution, so Darkstar is in play when Valar resolves.

Just a quick question on Stay of execution plot.

This is obviously a replacement effect but the template of the wording is a little different to retreat which caused a mild disagreement last night.

Unlike retreat that specifies that after being killed return to hand, stay of execution says instead of being killed return king or queen character to hand.

My opponent argued that this would mean that responses that trigger off the the character being killed couldn't be played as the character is never killed. I argued that the character has to be killed to be going to hand and that such responses could be triggered.

Im almost certain that im right on this but some people (brothers) wont accept this without some 3rd part arbiter.

This is a long-settled point. When a replacement effect changes the destination of a card that is removed from play (eg, "moribund:hand" instead of "moribund:dead pile" when killed), you look at HOW it was removed from play, not to WHERE it ends up, when considering costs, Responses, etc.. That's the whole reason Darkstar can be used with MotS and Doubting Septa or The High Septon are brilliant ways to pay the cost of Harrenhal.

This is even referred to in the FAQ's entry on non-characters acting as characters. It mentions that when a non-character character is killed, it is put in the discard pile instead (don't remember the exact words, but it follows replacement effect wording similar to Stay of Execution), but that you still Respond to the card being killed.

As always, thanks Ktom.

I'm also thinking of what happens when you discard Darkstar from your hand to RS 3 Gold save a character from being killed (via Maester of the Sun) ... Darkstar enters play and gets killed in the next step.Why does this happen ... the replacement effect that puts Darkstar into play ...before characters are killed.

Finally ... if you discard a card from your hand does it go into moribund or straight into the discard pileDiscard attached character from play (cannot be saved) WHEN you kneel DF to pay an influence cost

In an extreme example, what happens if I have 2 DFs attached to DP and trigger his response

Do I pay the cost in one hit - i.e. kneel the two DFs and remove DP from play - and thus cannot discard DP as he is no longer in play?

Thanks - characters being removed from play ... they still go through moribund? (DP is not discarded, he is removed)And if DP is prized, my opponents don't get anything because he is not being discarded or killed

Is DP Dornish Paramour? I figured out that DF was Doran's Favor and not Dornish Fiefdoms, but wasn't sure if DP was Dornish Paramour.

@Viprunescape12

1 Darkstar:

Following the timing of when Saves/Cancels happen, when you discard Darkstar to fund the ability of the Maester, he comes into play immedately. This is during step 2 and he comes into play immediately. During Step 3 (Resolution), all characters who were not saved (and don't have any "cannot be killed" effect applied) become moribund:dead pile.

2. Moribund rules only apply to cards in play. Cards from your deck, hand, discard, deal piles have no moribund state, so they move immediately upon the cost being paid or the effect resolving - depending on the effect in question.

* Doran's Favor makes the character it is attached to moribund:discard after you've knelt the influence to pay for something. So when you reach Step 4 of the timing, the character becomes moribund:discard.

3. Drowned Prophet (please don't abbreviate names unless you've earlier said who you are referring to. make it easy on us!) His ability is to kneel 8 influence and remove him from the game. If you have 2 Favors attached to him, you could kneel them to trigger his ability. He becomes moribund:out of game during Step 1 of this process as it is part of the cost. Provided the ability isn't canceled you end the challenges phase. During the passive step of this window, the Favor attachments would attempt to discard the character, but since he is already moribund there is no effect.

4. ANY card (not just character) leaving play to ANY out-of-play area goes through the moribund process. You are correct that leaving the game is different than being killed or discarded for the purposes of Prized. So is going into shadows, being put on top of the deck or being bounced to hand.

Note that all my references to timing can be found in the FAQ, located here.

Nice job Sloth. I don't have any idea how you figured out DP = Drowned Prophet. I wasn't even close.

I believe the full name was used in the original post and abbreviated in all others.

I didn't recall reading the name elsewhere, I just had to figure out what he was trying to use 8 influence on, which lead me to that dude.