that spar has also always bugged me. Why are the two sections so far apart other then it looks cool?
Same reason that ships have random wings, some that fold up, or rotate around, or ships that aren't centered on their engines when it comes to their push vectors. Because the model builders wanted lots of unique looking vehicles without caring about would it work.
that spar has also always bugged me. Why are the two sections so far apart other then it looks cool?
Same reason that ships have random wings, some that fold up, or rotate around, or ships that aren't centered on their engines when it comes to their push vectors. Because the model builders wanted lots of unique looking vehicles without caring about would it work.
Yes I completely agree that's why I said, "other then it looks cool". But, that is part of the fun with Star Wars vehicles - trying to give a credible reason to what we see - that began with the TIE fighter's solar panels, the X-wing's s-foils, and the Falcon's mandibles.
Honestly, that was one of WEG's WTF moments. Unless the starfighters in question are very very VERY tiny, there is no way to fit 24 of them on a Nebulon B. Look at the Falcon next to one in Empire. Nebulons are dinky! Unless the rebellion has mastered Time Lord technology, you might get some Jedi Starfighters onboard, but 20 X-Wings? Forget about it.
Was it WEG or was it Lucasarts when they made X-wing? I dont seem to remember the Nebulon-b carrying starfighters in the really early 1st edition WEG game. Unfortunately, I also dont have access to those books right now to check.
My WEG 1st Edition Rebel Alliance Sourcebook on page 60 specifies that the Nebulon-B "has the capacity to carry up to two starfighter squadrons" and in the next sentence states that "In addition, the Frigate has docking fixtures to accommodate ships of up to medium freighter size". Parsing that, the WEG developers (and LucasArts who approved it) intended that the starfighters are carried internally and larger ships docked externally, because if they had wanted the fighters clamped on externally they would have written those two sentences differently (docking fixtures are only mentioned in regards to freighters, not the fighter carrying capacity).
Ship size and storage capacity in Star Wars is very much one of those "artistic license" (aka TARDIS effect) things, much like how hyperspace travel times are "speed of plot". Star Wars requires a fair amount of suspension of disbelief, and is not conducive to overthinking things like how do you fit two dozen TIEs into an escort frigate. You do it the same way you fit crew space into that same ship for the roughly 900 people and all the food and water they'll need for 2 frigging years! (Try doing the math on that sometime, and calculate the space all that food and water will take up. Go on, try it.) And without using Star Trek's magical energy-to-matter converters (aka replicators).
You do it the same way you fit crew space into that same ship for the roughly 900 people and all the food and water they'll need for 2 frigging years! (Try doing the math on that sometime, and calculate the space all that food and water will take up. Go on, try it.) And without using Star Trek's magical energy-to-matter converters (aka replicators).
I'm going to assume that they have very efficient recycling and quite possibly semi-renewable foodstuffs aboard, and they only need to "refresh" the systems every two years.
Not the first time this has come up.
Synopsis of the linked thread: This is only a problem if you want it to be. It's only 'inconsistent' if cherry-pick your sources.
Edited by LethalDoseWas it WEG or was it Lucasarts when they made X-wing? I dont seem to remember the Nebulon-b carrying starfighters in the really early 1st edition WEG game. Unfortunately, I also dont have access to those books right now to check.Honestly, that was one of WEG's WTF moments. Unless the starfighters in question are very very VERY tiny, there is no way to fit 24 of them on a Nebulon B. Look at the Falcon next to one in Empire. Nebulons are dinky! Unless the rebellion has mastered Time Lord technology, you might get some Jedi Starfighters onboard, but 20 X-Wings? Forget about it.
As I mentioned before, WEG listed the ship as 300m long. If WEG made that up, or got it from another source, i dunno. At 300 m there's plenty of room for fighters and shuttles.
Using the closing shot of ESB as reference the frigate is 300 ft long. At that length there isn't room.
WEG and other early sources did have a problem with conversion to metric, often listing items as if 1ft=1m. So it's not just the Neb-b with issues.
As I mentioned before, WEG listed the ship as 300m long. If WEG made that up, or got it from another source, i dunno. At 300 m there's plenty of room for fighters and shuttles.
Using the closing shot of ESB as reference the frigate is 300 ft long. At that length there isn't room.
I think even in the closing shot of ESB, the Neb-B could easily be 300m using the Falcon (~35 m long) as a reference, or so close to 300 that it makes no practical difference. It looks like nearly 3 YT's could fit end-to-end down the central spar alone.
But again, it's only really a problem if you want it to be...
Personally, I blame the craptastic WEG, for many of the current issues with Star Wars lore. Truly, I wish much of it was thrown completely out, but as much of it is so ingrained in the collective consciousness, I have to accept it.
Barring my disdain for WEG, here is how I would reconcile the nubulon B issue.
Don't use a nebulon B. Currently, I can't recall a canon (as in the official word on lore) that the nebulon b is, was, or ever will be an imperial design.
There ARE some imperial designed ships that work wonders, some even canon.
For instance, the Quasar-Fire Cruiser Carrier.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/quasar-fire-class-cruiser-carrier
This is a ship that's main role is a launch platform for fighters. It was seen, and made official, on Star Wars Rebels. Pair it with a couple of imperial gozanti class, and you have a decent threat.
Use a Gladiator Class Star Destroyer. These are smaller star destroyers whose main purpose seem to be that of a carrier.
If you absolutely must use a Nebulon B, take a lettef from the one age of rebellion adventure, it has a ship that is an upside down nebulon B, which has cargo containers that connect to the long spine between engines and main module. Create a fighter bay module or container to do the job..
Hopefully, one day, the blight that is WEG will be eradicated from the Star Wars tree, but if you must use its material, don't be afraid to change and throw out what doesn't make sense. There are countless other options for imperial ships.
The Gladiator has yet to appear in the published FFG material.
The Gladiator has yet to appear in the published FFG material.
That is not true.
It hasn't appeared in any RPG material.. ;P
Truly though, unless you are doing capital vs capital ship, the stats for a star destroyer should be PLOT.
As I mentioned before, WEG listed the ship as 300m long. If WEG made that up, or got it from another source, i dunno. At 300 m there's plenty of room for fighters and shuttles.
Using the closing shot of ESB as reference the frigate is 300 ft long. At that length there isn't room.
I think even in the closing shot of ESB, the Neb-B could easily be 300m using the Falcon (~35 m long) as a reference, or so close to 300 that it makes no practical difference. It looks like nearly 3 YT's could fit end-to-end down the central spar alone.
But again, it's only really a problem if you want it to be...
RIGHT! Thanks for that.
So.... likely the issue comes from that shot. Guessing ILM used a falcon model they already had on hand for that shot, and paired with the size of the Neb-B model, it would be in the neighborhood of 300m. So that's probably what WEG went with.
The closing shot, with that window scene that was pretty fancy special effects for the time had the med bay and window large enough so you could see and identify the heroes standing there with the need for an even more complex zoom out on top of putting real people inside a tiny model.
So, it makes sense that ILM just rolled with the discrepancy, figuring that it's only a movie, and only a couple scenes.
They thought we wouldn't notice...but we did...
As I mentioned before, WEG listed the ship as 300m long. If WEG made that up, or got it from another source, i dunno. At 300 m there's plenty of room for fighters and shuttles.
Using the closing shot of ESB as reference the frigate is 300 ft long. At that length there isn't room.
I think even in the closing shot of ESB, the Neb-B could easily be 300m using the Falcon (~35 m long) as a reference, or so close to 300 that it makes no practical difference. It looks like nearly 3 YT's could fit end-to-end down the central spar alone.
But again, it's only really a problem if you want it to be...
RIGHT! Thanks for that.
So.... likely the issue comes from that shot. Guessing ILM used a falcon model they already had on hand for that shot, and paired with the size of the Neb-B model, it would be in the neighborhood of 300m. So that's probably what WEG went with.
The closing shot, with that window scene that was pretty fancy special effects for the time had the med bay and window large enough so you could see and identify the heroes standing there with the need for an even more complex zoom out on top of putting real people inside a tiny model.
So, it makes sense that ILM just rolled with the discrepancy, figuring that it's only a movie, and only a couple scenes.
They thought we wouldn't notice...but we did...
As I mentioned before, WEG listed the ship as 300m long. If WEG made that up, or got it from another source, i dunno. At 300 m there's plenty of room for fighters and shuttles.
Using the closing shot of ESB as reference the frigate is 300 ft long. At that length there isn't room.
I think even in the closing shot of ESB, the Neb-B could easily be 300m using the Falcon (~35 m long) as a reference, or so close to 300 that it makes no practical difference. It looks like nearly 3 YT's could fit end-to-end down the central spar alone.
But again, it's only really a problem if you want it to be...
RIGHT! Thanks for that.
So.... likely the issue comes from that shot. Guessing ILM used a falcon model they already had on hand for that shot, and paired with the size of the Neb-B model, it would be in the neighborhood of 300m. So that's probably what WEG went with.
The closing shot, with that window scene that was pretty fancy special effects for the time had the med bay and window large enough so you could see and identify the heroes standing there with the need for an even more complex zoom out on top of putting real people inside a tiny model.
So, it makes sense that ILM just rolled with the discrepancy, figuring that it's only a movie, and only a couple scenes.
They thought we wouldn't notice...but we did...
Yes, 10 years after the movie came out, someone noticed. It's not like anyone, at the time of the movies, had the ability to pause the scene and pull out their measuring tool to see what the windows were and the other ships. Even if you did it after the transfer of the film to VHS, you'd be hard put to really get a good sizing due to the lack of resolution of tape vs film.
http://inhuman-comic.com/forums/index.php?topic=1319.0 Check this out, Jshok.
It can fit 24 TIEs inside, and has a shuttle bay below that deck on in the front. And another shuttle bay at the back...between those two bays, I'm sure it could fit at least one squadron of Rebel fighters, maybe a whole 2.
Plus there is this picture online here: http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/Neb-Bbays.gif That compare s the Rebel fighters to the same size bay. The Tie bay/main hangar is actually two full decks of the ship, so there wouldnt likely be room for that second level that is required for some of the fighters in there, but as sI aid before, the shuttle bays should help out with that.
There is also this about it having problems carrying different types of ties- other than just the standard TIE/LN, but it could again as i said use the Shuttle bays to pick up the slack.
http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/ImpNeb-Bbays.gif
Edited by knaveleadThat's from The Far Orbit Project.http://inhuman-comic.com/forums/index.php?topic=1319.0 Check this out, Jshok.
And yes it is from the Far Orbit Project, I love that book.
So do I. So much so that I run a Play-by-Post FFG conversion of it.
Looking at the spar and the falcon in the footage... it looks like the spar is just about 4 falcons long. Say, about 130m? the spar is about 2/5 the overall length...
And the TIE/ln is 9m long. 130/9≅14... but we can assume a minimum 2m clearance... so, 130/11≅11...
call it 140m and 12 under the spar, plus 12 in the hangar.
Also note: there are several kinds of "carriers" in the real world...
Let's break down the types of functions:
Launch/Land
Refuel
Rearm
Unpowered Recovery
Routine Maintenance
Deep maintenance/repair - Swap for spares
Deep maintenance/repair - pull-fix-replace
Hull repairs
The full on fleet carriers are something we seldom see in Star Wars... the Nimitz class has capability for all but unpowered recovery, but operates in a different medium from it's subcraft.
Battle carriers often lack the deep maintenance, but can do routine maintenance, some hull repairs, full refuel and rearm.
Some carriers are battle taxis - they can refuel and rearm, do routine maintenance, but aren't equipped to repair. If they need to do deep repair, they either go to either a fully capable carrier, or a shore base.
A few are "Aircraft Resupply Vessels" - they often can't even rearm as designed. (Sometimes called auxiliary carriers.) They can launch/land, and refuel, and do basic maintenance - they are primarily to ferry aircraft to "real carriers"...
Most warships now carry an aircraft or two for routine uses - they can't provide significant repairs, don't rearm, but can land a couple helos... Usually, they carry enough fuel for a couple sorties... In late WW I & in WW II, it was battleships with up to 4 float planes as scout planes. Often referred to as "Casual Carriers"... almost all major warships in modern navies have a helicopter pad, and many have hangars.
Moving this back to Star Wars...
Most capital ships carry fighters. Very few "pure carriers" have been statted, and even those have significant armaments.
It's a safe bet that a Star Destroyer or other Size 7&8 ships are "fully capable" carriers, with deep maintenance... the size 5 and 6 might be capable of pull-and-replace deep maintenance, but seem likely to simply rotate the squadrons through a base.
Most of the size 4 ships are unlikely to be more than battle-taxi types... carrying the craft in tight hangars or on pylons.
I posit the Neb to probably be both styles. One squadron external, one internal; external on ready status, internal less so, including those under maintenance.
The Nebulon-K used attached moorings to carry its TIEs, so there's that.
The Nebulon-K used attached moorings to carry its TIEs, so there's that.
What are "attached moorings" supposed to be? Is this just another way of saying external docking clamps?
Edited by HappyDazeWhat are "attached moorings" supposed to be? Is this just another way of saying external docking clamps?The Nebulon-K used attached moorings to carry its TIEs, so there's that.
I'm pretty sure a Moor is an ethnic group of Muslims in southern Europe...
So I guess the K just had those guys (married only) holding on really tight...
Not the first time this has come up.
Synopsis of the linked thread: This is only a problem if you want it to be. It's only 'inconsistent' if cherry-pick your sources.
My bad, the thread I linked was started *after* this thread.
On the same topic, holy f***ing necro, ppl. This thread is two years old.
