If a tie hunter folded all it's Swoils up,instead of together like an Xwinng, it becomes clear it's gunboat knockoff instead of an Xwing knockoff.

Mostly. The Hunter has Torpedoes instead of Missiles though.

The XG-1 is basically an multi-role fighter, it may be more an analog to th A-10 (which is a ground attack plane and not an multi-role fighter) maybe more an analog of the AJ-37 Viggen. I digress, the XG-1 is intended for multiple roles, it isn't specialized like the TIE Fighter, Interceptor, Bomber, Phantom, and Punisher. The Defender is more an omni-role fighter capable of following any role it is assigned to.

Oh Geez where to start.

TIE Hunters we'll just ignore, because ew.

"Or we could NOT just ignore another ship that fits because of no reason at all."

Ignored because random imperial TIE X-wing derivative from one game, which is the ugliest TIE I have ever seen. It's what would happen if China made a TIE Xwing knock off and called it the TIE wing.

DariusAPB, on 27 Jan 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

TIE Defenders can neither land

DariusAPB, on 27 Jan 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

TIE Defenders can neither land well on the ground

Is not a thing you can prove. If TIE Fighters can land on their wings, there's no reason to think Defenders can't also.

on the ground

"Is not a thing you can prove. If TIE Fighters can land on their wings, there's no reason to think Defenders can't also."

Alright, I put the important bit in bold for you. Do you see it yet? It can probably land, possibly causing expensive damage, possibly not. Getting back into the ship would be fun. Whatever though, it still isn't as landing capable as the Gunboat.

were only made in limited quantities and were as expensive as hell.

"Is not relevant. He said no TIE could fulfill those roles. Not no TIE can fulfill those roles on a budget."

A commander not having access to a mary sue do everything ship is totally relevant. I am sure I could stop war in the middle east if I had 1000 space marines. I don't.

DariusAPB, on 27 Jan 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

draw all the attention

You keep saying this? What the hell does it mean?

"Like a Rebel ship is going to encounter an Imperial Gunboat and go "Eh? Gunboat? I'll just ignore it"?"

Actually yes, sorta.

"Oh, a random gunboat patrol, better keep our distance/fly casual."

compared to.

"OH SITHSPIT, A TIE DEFENDER GROUP! THEY ARE ON TO US, EVACUATE NOW, EVACUATE NOW!!!"

If a tie hunter folded all it's Swoils up,instead of together like an Xwinng, it becomes clear it's gunboat knockoff instead of an Xwing knockoff.

Sounds Starviperish to me >_>

Tie hunter? I thought hunting Ties was the main thing X-wings really did

Alright, I put the important bit in bold for you. Do you see it yet? It can probably land, possibly causing expensive damage, possibly not. Getting back into the ship would be fun. Whatever though, it still isn't as landing capable as the Gunboat.

Actually yes, sorta.

"Oh, a random gunboat patrol, better keep our distance/fly casual."

compared to.

"OH SITHSPIT, A TIE DEFENDER GROUP! THEY ARE ON TO US, EVACUATE NOW, EVACUATE NOW!!!"

Either you're in an obvious Rebel ship, like an X-Wing, and there's no reason to think a Gunboat wouldn't attack you just as fast as a Defender.

Or you're flying incognito as a civilian vessel, in which case, panicking and blowing your cover the instant a Defender shows up in-system doesn't seem like a great response either.

It's not an unreasonable assumption given the structure of the Defender would clearly exert a lot of ground pressure and a lot of stress on its own space frame to land.

Could land without damaging the structure? Possibly. Is it advisable? I doubt it.

By contrast, unless the XG-1 is made of some unusually dense substance (highly unlikely), it is structurally better suited to landing without either damaging itself or sinking into the ground.

Yes, while that argument is an assumption, it's an entirely reasonable one to make. Really, physics dictates the assumption here. There's a reason landing gears have a relatively large surface area.

Honestly, it's a bigger assumption to assume the Defender is a ship that is supposed to touch down, especially since you are clearly supposed to enter and leave the ship in a way that is not easily accessible from a "landing" position

(I'm not sure I find the argument about landing to be more than an edge case with respect to capabilities but dammit I can't stay away from the physics XD)

It's not an unreasonable assumption given the structure of the Defender would clearly exert a lot of ground pressure and a lot of stress on its own space frame to land.

Could land without damaging the structure? Possibly. Is it advisable? I doubt it.

Whatever they make spaceships out of in Star Wars, it's apparently strong enough to support the ship's weight.

Alright, I put the important bit in bold for you. Do you see it yet? It can probably land, possibly causing expensive damage, possibly not. Getting back into the ship would be fun. Whatever though, it still isn't as landing capable as the Gunboat.

But you can't prove THAT either. There's no evidence that a Defender would have ANY difficulty landing at all. You are counting among a ship's weaknesses something that is a complete assumption on your part.

Actually yes, sorta.

"Oh, a random gunboat patrol, better keep our distance/fly casual."

compared to.

"OH SITHSPIT, A TIE DEFENDER GROUP! THEY ARE ON TO US, EVACUATE NOW, EVACUATE NOW!!!"

That doesn't seem like the optimal reaction to have for any Rebel pilot.

Either you're in an obvious Rebel ship, like an X-Wing, and there's no reason to think a Gunboat wouldn't attack you just as fast as a Defender.

Or you're flying incognito as a civilian vessel, in which case, panicking and blowing your cover the instant a Defender shows up in-system doesn't seem like a great response either.

See the above response from Ktan regarding the gunboat, taking off again would be more of an issue than landing. I am ok assuming the defender can land on it's wings, minor damage notwithstanding.

A Defender is a much more high profile ship than a gunboat to have around, they are rare, expensive and assigned to only the best pilots. You see one, you know something is up. A Gunboat patrol screams routine. If you got Defenders doing recon, then straight away you are tipping your hand that you are looking for something. A gunboat patrol is just ships looking for x-wings to shoot at, or the odd transport to disable.

Well, can't say it's a workable tactics, but who knows...

Yeah, no-one understands the PS1 thing. Perhaps it's because the TIE Defender is so new advanced pilots don't have a grasp on it yet. It's why when i run campaigns switching ship gives a -2 ps penalty.

Yeah, no-one understands the PS1 thing. Perhaps it's because the TIE Defender is so new advanced pilots don't have a grasp on it yet. It's why when i run campaigns switching ship gives a -2 ps penalty.

I mean, I think that's the fluff argument, but honestly I think they're PS1 because then it's almost impossible to block the K-Turn. It's why I'd prefer PS1 and 3 on the Gunboat if when we get it.

I AM ignoring it because it wasn't my point.

You said the Gunboat was the best recon and patrol ship. Those are two different mission types. And I'm not arguing it's status as a patrol ship. I'm arguing it's status as a recon ship

OK, so if you're ignoring a section of my statement because it doesn't fit your narrative, then you're essentially conceding defeat. Yes, they're two different mission types - and they're both mission types Gunboat was designed for and used for both (amongst others). It's a multi-role starfighter. THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT.

I mean, that's blatantly untrue. TIE Hunters and TIE Defenders not only possess all the capabilities the Gunboat does, but they possess them at a much higher performance level than the Gunboat.

Of course the TIE Defender has a much higher performance level. I've already said as much myself. It also has a unit cost of almost three times the unit cost of the Gunboat, and was produced and deployed by the Empire in much more limited quantities as a result (another point you're choosing to ignore because it doesn't fit your narrative).

You wouldn't use TIE Defenders to run routine system patrol missions. You would deploy Assault Gunboats.

You wouldn't use TIE Defenders to protect shipping lanes. You would deploy Assault Gunboats.

You would send Gunboats to escort an Imperial Shuttle transporting junior officers or engineers; you'd send TIE Defenders to escort a shuttle transporting a Grand Moff.

Depends on the Grand Moff. If he's one of the more useless ones, he gets a 1985 ford cortina escort for his TIE Shuttle.

Depends on the Grand Moff. If he's one of the more useless ones, he gets a 1985 ford cortina escort for his TIE Shuttle.

Oh man, that finally explains what that Buick was doing in Rogue Squadron: Crix Madine's escort.

The Buick was the gunboat prototype.

GUNBOATS were part of the standard compliment aboard the ISD per the Technical Journals. 5 were normally carried. In contrast NO TIE Advance (v1, x1, /ad, ect) were ever listed as being in the standard compliment of any capital ships. The defender likewise was never fielded in the numbers even close to approaching the GUNBOAT, much less the Bomber, Interceptor or Fighter.

Unfortunately the GUNBOAT is GROSSLY underrepresented in the media despite its role as a standard multirole fighter. Defenders and such get all the glory because they are super cool, which they are, but they sure weren't the work horses of the fleet.

For the youngin's

The ultimate scout/recon craft.

You know, younguns... almost brings a tear to the eye that my experience in the x-wing series games, combat flight sims etc vastly surpasses my reactions in use. I can fly rings around my friends, always could but now I do it with knowledge and experience, mastery of the systems, throttle, turning rates, positioning etc rather than marksmanship and pure reactions. In the old XvT I almost never missed, my shots used to line up in dogfights perfectly, we played lan, my friends got annoyed because they knew they were going to die because I exhaled when pulling the trigger.

Now, I find I am missing a lot more, i'm not dialed into the joystick or lining up shots that well. Some if it is due to game wobble (actually a lot is to be fair) but constant ELS switching, shunting, shield toggling if i have to intercept, almost never even being hit when strafing a star destroyer now. It's weird. It's like I'm playing on two whole new levels, one vastly superior to what I was, one vastly inferior. Isn't that a good definition of getting older?

For the youngin's

The ultimate scout/recon craft.

If you look closely you might see Sam and Dean, or maybe the Blues Brothers.

Oh, and TIE Defenders don't land, they hover-park like a speeder bike or Landspeeder. Then the pilot climbs out and repels down an extending line with sturrup. Or uses rocket boots if he's cool enough.

Oh, and TIE Defenders don't land, they hover-park like a speeder bike or Landspeeder. Then the pilot climbs out and repels down an extending line with sturrup. Or uses rocket boots if he's cool enough.

But how do they get back in? It seems as good a place as any to repost this pic...

Oh, and TIE Defenders don't land, they hover-park like a speeder bike or Landspeeder. Then the pilot climbs out and repels down an extending line with sturrup. Or uses rocket boots if he's cool enough.

But how do they get back in? It seems as good a place as any to repost this pic...

And that pic is a great demonstration of repulsor lift parking supplemented by structural anchoring.

Also HLC TIE ftw.

That's not an HLC. That's a turbolaser.

TIE HARDPOINT!

FFG have the mechanics to release it...

Headcanon follows:

The classic TIE/ln was produced because the first rule of winning a spaceship battle is to have a spaceship. TIE/lns allow the Empire to have lots of spaceships in lots of places, allowing them to win many, many spaceship battles. They also have TIE carriers (from ISDs to Gozantis) that allow them to move TIE/lns around to respond to lots of different situations that TIE/lns could not respond to on their own. Sometimes situations call for long-range projection of force levels that are not appropriate capital ships or large support ships, either because you don't want to risk it, or you need a way higher firepower:footprint ratio. Patrol, recon, raiding, etc. all fall into this category. Seinar had a ton of experience making cheap short range fighters, but Cygnus had experience making the Lambda shuttle. When the fleet sent a call out to submit proposals, Cygnus probably had a production-ready design submitted before Seinar even finished their first draft. The gunboat is not a variant of the Lambda, but Cygnar already knew how to make hyperdrive capable, high endurance, military grade spacecraft. The gunboat just cannot have been that hard. I bet it shares half its parts with the Lambda, and the other half are just scaled down versions. I can only assume the cockpit was probably roomy and comfortable to ease the fatigue of long missions. Anyway, if the TIE/ln lets you win spaceship battles by having a spaceship, the gunboat lets you win spaceship battles by having a spaceship that can go somewhere quickly. It doesn't have to be the best, it wins battles just by showing up.

Sure, Seinar did their best to catch up, with the x1, the Avenger, and others, but it's advanced design group was too wedded to the Imperial Fighter elite, and they had to make everything a dog-fighter, especially because it had the extra expense of a hyperdrive attached. Consequently, all their advanced designs were expensive, and still geared toward maximum performance in a dogfight, so pilots were excessively burdened by these compromises when they spent long missions in the cockpit. They did perform exceptionally well in hyperspace raids and strike missions because of their combat prowess, but many of these missions could be performed by gunboats with no loss of efficacy. Consequently, advanced, hyperspace capable TIEs became posts for politically favored officers, much like certain cavalry regiments of the British Empire. They would not partake in the random dirty, dangerous day-to-day work of fighters on patrol, but would be held in reserve for high intensity, but glorious hyperspace strike missions where their advanced dogfighting capabilities were much more valuable. Unspoken, but also considered, is the fact that the sons and daughters of the political elite could flee in a hyperspace capable fighter in the case that a military operation went sideways, whereas traditional TIE pilots would defend their carrier to the death, because they had little choice.

Yeah, that was useful.

That's actually very close to the summary of the XG1's EU background (from the X-Wing series) posted on page 1 Biophysical!

Once the Rebellion started waging (highly successful) hit and fade attacks via hyperspace on Imperial convoys and installations, the Imperial Navy realised they needed to take a new approach to deal with the threat - their traditional methods of enforcement (mainly local garrisons and capital ships deploying waves of cheap, expendable fodder) were proving inefficient.. local garrisons were being overwhelmed, there simply weren't enough capital ships to go around, and by the time they responded and deployed the Rebels were usually gone. So they threw open the floor to their contractors.

It's also important to note that the Empire had originally intended for the X-Wing to fill this role in their fleet - until Incom Corporation defected en masse to the Rebellion, and took the plans and prototypes for the starfighter with them. It was a double whammy for the Empire - they lost years of research to an enemy organisation, which was then used against them very effectively.

Hence their rush to get a product off the ground. Cygnus Spaceworks beat their rivals to the punch with the Alpha-class XG-1 Assault Gunboat. It was developed from their existing Lambda-class Shuttle technology, shielded, hyperspace capable and with a flexible load out that featured laser cannons, ion cannons and ordnance. it was quickly pressed into service in escort, patrol, recon and rapid-response roles, and became well established throughout the Imperial fleet long before the Battle of Yavin, The XG-1 Assault Gunboat went on to be used in counterstrike operations by the Empire as well, staging hit-and-fade operations of their own on Rebel (and pirate) convoys and installations.

Sienar Fleet Systems meanwhile were working on their own solutions. The first was the Immobiliser-418 cruiser, which used gravity wells to prevent ships from fleeing into hyperspace (or to pull them out of hyperspace). The second was it's experimental TIE project, which led to Vader's X1, the TIE Avenger and eventually the TIE Defender. It had it's own teething problems, notably extremely expensive unit costs and (in a near-catastrophic repeat of the Incom defection) the rogue Admiral Demetrius Zaarin.