We've addressed your concerns on the idea and numerous times DEX. We've talked you through it. We've given reasoning, examples and precedents from the actual game itself. You simply handwave it every time and return to the same old tired, facetious and factually incorrect line of argument.

And I've done the same, and you do exactly the same.

As long as Defenders, and B-Wings can still take non-Ion cannon cannons and the Y-Wing can take non-ion cannon turrets, there will never be an adequate argument for why the Gunboat shouldn't be able to as well. Everything else is you ignoring reasoning, examples and precedents with a handwave while returning to your same old tired arguments.

And I have no problem with it, because the Gunboat did absolutely nothing new at the time. New for Imperial starfighters? Yes. But it did nothing that Rebel ships weren't already doing.

If all you end up doing is making an Imperial Y-Wing with Missiles instead of Torpedoes, then congratulations! You have accurately recreated the Gunboat! Rejoice!

Except for we've given reasons as to why.

The Firepower 2 vs Syck argument being a huge one.

Customization for mission parameters is fine, but care should be taken not to simply make it into a gun carriage. That's why Firepower 2 is tricky with cannons.

The Y-wing BTLA-4 is the best example I can think of of what a gunboat should be all about.

If you have nothing new to say, could you be less of a jerk about repeating yourself?

If you have nothing new to say, could you be less of a jerk about repeating yourself?

I see no reason why I should be the exception.

If you have nothing new to say, could you be less of a jerk about repeating yourself?

I see no reason why I should be the exception.

If you have nothing new to say, could you be less of a jerk about repeating yourself?

I see no reason why I should be the exception.

You really don't see any difference between your attitude and everyone else's?

No. I really don't see any difference between my attitude and, say, the guy telling me my arguments are tired, facetious and factually incorrect.

Hey we're all getting heated because we are passionate about the subject.

Some (not all, sorry DEX) of DEX' arguments are valid. Most of which I believe have been addressed.

The biggest invalid one is essentially the belief that all Imperial Fighter should be TIE's.

Rules elegance is important. I like to think that between twin linking with ions or BTL-A4 it's been resolved.

The thought that it's a boring design? I find that nonsensical. Tabletop games are all stats and special rules. mix up the numbers, play the rules carefully. That's it really.

That the Gunboat is ugly/feels out of place / is uninspired: Two words: TIE Punisher.

DEX, I've addressed why cannon slot and leaving it to it is a bad idea a few times now. I've not had any convincing arguments as to why I am wrong and why that needs changing. This is perhaps the biggest remaining point of contention so maybe we should debate about ways around this. As mentioned, I've offered an elegant if already used solution, do we have any others?

The biggest invalid one is essentially the belief that all Imperial Fighter should be TIE's.

I don't seriously believe that. That is a joke I make as a way of expressing my personal preference for TIEs.

I do think the Gunboat should be in the game. There are a bunch of TIEs that I want to see before it, but that is personal preference that I have no realistic expectations of actually happening.

I don't believe either of those arguments were mine. I think it's design is straightforward(not boring). But I don't count that as a reason it shouldn't be in the game. I think it SHOULD be straightforward. Most ships in the game are.

Give it a cannon slot. If that makes the HLC an auto-include to meta-gamers, big deal. Make the base ship 2 points more expensive if it helps.

The biggest invalid one is essentially the belief that all Imperial Fighter should be TIE's.

I don't seriously believe that. That is a joke I make as a way of expressing my personal preference for TIEs.

I do think the Gunboat should be in the game. There are a bunch of TIEs that I want to see before it, but that is personal preference that I have no realistic expectations of actually happening.

Then the question remains. How do we make a balanced gunboat that people don't automatically strap a mango and/or HLC to?

So far we've got linked fire cards.

Just give it a cannon slot (or two)

Use of a fixed turret slot.

If these ideas are uninspired, or boring or over-complicated, what do you have that fits better?

The key, either in brainstorming ideas guessing what FFG will give us, or homebrewing so we can uses Mel's is in game balance.

Making a mary sue craft got boring 20 years ago with a TIE Ship editor. and tweaking stats/weapon placement.

The XG-1 was a flawed, multirole ship, as we've mentioned - like the Y-wing, Now I've been running gold swarms since I first got into X-wing, and they've made a resurgence recently, they are not elite ships, and typically fill the 3-4 ship design space. So that's probably where we want Gunboats. I don't think that Gunboats should ever have bomb loadouts, but maybe a card that allows them to swap missile for torpedo.(but not swap the torpedo for bomb) and giving 2 slots for missiles/torpedoes (one card swaps both).

I don't like ion primary, doesn't feel right.

So yeah. What to do about implementing secondary weapons?

Amusingly, the announcement of the Tractor Beam cannon upgrade in the Mist Hunter expansion pack mwans that a cannon slot is actually starting to look like a less questionable on the XG-1. All you need to do is come up which a mechanic which gives the player an incentive to take an Ion Cannon, Tractor Beam (or Flechette Cannon, I guess) over a damage-dealing cannon.

I believe someone posted a suggestion to that effect earlier - "following a successful attack, apply non-damage effects from an equipped cannon" or similar.

An XG-1 expansion would also offer a good second source for the Tractor Beam upgrade. Imagine, if you will:

XG1-Assault Gunboat Expansion:

contents:

• XG-1 "Star Wing" Assault Gunboat

• Xeal (PS7)

• Flight Lieutenant Ada (PS5)

• Talon Squadron Pilot (PS4)

• Tau Squadron Pilot (PS2)

• Tractor Beam

• Ion Cannon

• Advanced Concussion Missiles

• Linked Firing Array

• Multi-Role Loadout

I don't like ion primary, doesn't feel right.

Well, there is no way to give it an Ion Primary without writing special rules for it.

Agreed. Though still super-pissed that they made the Tractor Beam a cannon in the first place.

8 waves and FFG hasn't shown interest in any othe TIE Fighter designs outside of the uber Defender and a few 'references' like the cargo container tokens. The next most popular ships from that game and the rest of the series are the Avenger and Gunboat. I would bet we see an Avenger out of either due to the V1 being released, since they along with the X1 and all 'TIE Advanced'. And, really, no gunboat before scum? No gunboat before the K-wing and Punisher?

They aren't going to make it. Not in the next 2 waves, or 20 waves. And we will never see the missile boat because wave 7 was the perfect place for it, and no sign of it other than SLAM on its rebel counterpart. FFG just hates non TIE imperial fighters. We haven't even seen the Sentinel Landing Craft, something that actually appeared in a (special edition) movie!

This thread is over 40 pages now. I never thought I would give up before 50 or 100, but I'm tired.

Does it matter that they haven't yet?

The T-wing, R-41, Ravens Claw, Dunelizard, Kimogila, Khiraz(oh wait they did) TIE Hunter (not a favourite) TIE Experimentals, Uglies, the DX-9, Imperial ARCs, YT2000, Scout craft, System patrol craft... Each wave they release adds new stuff. The Gozanti is coming, they are just releasing the obvious scum stuff for the time being, they are getting there guys.

Remember, it was only wave 4 (last year) that gave us the Z, Phantom, E and Defender, 5 gave us Deci and 2400. 6 is where scum starts. 7 hasn't been released yet and was clearly a bomber wave to address concerns re ordnance. 8 is clearly a rebels wave. 9, 10, 11, 12? who knows??

Sure, 9 and 10 i'd predict are TFA, but all it takes is 1 "TIE Fighter classics" wave to give us Twing, R-41 and Gunboat, with maybe for scum the YT2000. Maybe the Imperials will get the sentinel, maybe Rebels a nova courier.

Also I'm not happy that the tractor beam is a cannon. It makes sense why brobots have 2 cannon slots now though, and technically i suppose it's an attack...

I do think that simply leaving it as a cannon(or two) is a better option than what I perceive to be an overworded "no damage results if you hit" solution. It kinda semi works but... I dunno, seems like it detracts too much from card text.

What about 2 turret slots, and a tractor beam card that fits in turret? (I really REALLY like my fixed turret idea guys). Don't even have to change the BTL-A4 text, if you fire a secondary (turret) you may fire a primary. You just need to pick the secondary.

The bottom line is never say never. The second you say never, FFG says lulwut and surprises you.

**** it. Gunboats are never gonna happen.

we will never see the missile boat because wave 7 was the perfect place for it...

I wasn't aware the Missile Boat carried bombs.

Anyway, I'm sure I've heard that argument before, GrimmyV.

It was used to shoot down people discussing the possibility of a third faction.

It was used to shoot down people discussing the possibility of Imperial Huige Ships.

It was used to shoot down people discussing the possibility of a new Core Set.

It was used to shoot down people discussing the possibility of prequel trilogy sh....er, haha, forget that one.

Totally agree with Darth Enders logic regarding the HLC, it would follow the design they have followed for the last few waves, give it a cannon slot and done, just cost the ship appropriately. I have never seen B wings with HLC and I rarely take them on defenders.

For a different opinion, I for one hope we never see this dog turd of a ship, it was aesthetically so different from the rest of the Star Wars ships it just reeked of someone slapping a ship together and throwing it in the game because they needed another fighter.

Don't give me all the bloated fluff crap about it being a Cygnus space works design just like the Lambda, all that fan boy crap was written up years afterwards, and hangs round the neck of the Star Wars Mythos like a maggot infested carcass.

Speaking of bloated fanboy crap fluff has anyone read all the nonsense surrounding Bossk, Jesus Christ, hanging around with Boba Fett when was an ickle kid, give me a F###ing break.

Wow that felt good

Actually the cygnus crap was released at the time to explain the gunboats aesthetic, and was noted in the ships stats in the x-wing series of games... Minor point bit in need of factual correction.

Actually the cygnus crap was released at the time to explain the gunboats aesthetic, and was noted in the ships stats in the x-wing series of games... Minor point bit in need of factual correction.

Don't mind Ashley, he'll be feeling the back of my hand next time he pops around for a games night.

To Ashley:

Im sorry but the gunboat, while similar to the Lambda shuttle, is a thousand times better than the punisher's design.

The gunboat is in a difficult place because it has to compete with Tie bombers, Tie punishers and the lambda shuttle. It would have to have something more valuable than to take it over these options. Cheap ordinance - Tie Bomber. Crazy Bombs/Missiles - Tie Punisher. Cheap Hp/Cannon - Lambda Shuttle. If they release the gunboat it will probably require a new mechanic to be competitive in that point range (this assumes it will be in that point range, hopefully not higher).

The gunboat is in a difficult place because it has to compete with Tie bombers, Tie punishers and the lambda shuttle.

Don't forget the Oppressor.

The Oppressor is too ugly (and useless!) to compete with literally any other ship.

(only thing it might have a chance against is Palpatine's face for Miss Galaxy)

No such thing as a useless fast bomber!

For a different opinion, I for one hope we never see this dog turd of a ship, it was aesthetically so different from the rest of the Star Wars ships it just reeked of someone slapping a ship together and throwing it in the game because they needed another fighter.

Don't give me all the bloated fluff crap about it being a Cygnus space works design just like the Lambda, all that fan boy crap was written up years afterwards, and hangs round the neck of the Star Wars Mythos like a maggot infested carcass.

From 1993 X-Wing manual (remember it was LucasFilm Games first Star Wars game after they recovered the Star Wars license):

It has definitely been there before the TIE Opressor, TIE Compressor, TIE Depressor, TIE Hunter, TIE Punter, TIE Interdictor, TIE Predictor, etc.

Before most of the scum ships already in the game. Before the E-Wing, the K-Wing, the YT-2400, and so on and on.

X-Wing was 2-3 years in the making, so th Gunboat was probably designed around 1989/90. That is 6-7 years after Return of the Jedi's premiere in theaters. So it is closer to the Original Trilogy than any other EU ship you can think of, other than contemporary Kenner toys.

For a different opinion, I for one hope we never see this dog turd of a ship, it was aesthetically so different from the rest of the Star Wars ships it just reeked of someone slapping a ship together and throwing it in the game because they needed another fighter.

Don't give me all the bloated fluff crap about it being a Cygnus space works design just like the Lambda, all that fan boy crap was written up years afterwards, and hangs round the neck of the Star Wars Mythos like a maggot infested carcass.

From 1993 X-Wing manual (remember it was LucasFilm Games first Star Wars game after they recovered the Star Wars license):

It has definitely been there before the TIE Opressor, TIE Compressor, TIE Depressor, TIE Hunter, TIE Punter, TIE Interdictor, TIE Predictor, etc.

Before most of the scum ships already in the game. Before the E-Wing, the K-Wing, the YT-2400, and so on and on.

X-Wing was 2-3 years in the making, so th Gunboat was probably designed around 1989/90. That is 6-7 years after Return of the Jedi's premiere in theaters. So it is closer to the Original Trilogy than any other EU ship you can think of, other than contemporary Kenner toys.

Well I stand corrected, looking at what you said above, why have we not got the Gunboat already?

Sounds like it could have been a wave 2/3 ship, if it has not appeared already then it never will. Especially now they have the new films and associated tie ins* Rebels etc to mine for new ships.

I believe the appearance of the Ghost and other ships( that cannot be talked about) is the final nail in the ugly x shaped coffin of the Gunboat, give up the dream XG1 fans, never gonna happen.

*see what I did there

Flat-out: it has been brought up in at least one dev interview, they are aware of it.

FFG's track record has excellent taste in picking ships, I don't think your taste aligns with that.

[...]

Well I stand corrected, looking at what you said above, why have we not got the Gunboat already?

Sounds like it could have been a wave 2/3 ship, if it has not appeared already then it never will. Especially now they have the new films and associated tie ins* Rebels etc to mine for new ships.

I believe the appearance of the Ghost and other ships( that cannot be talked about) is the final nail in the ugly x shaped coffin of the Gunboat, give up the dream XG1 fans, never gonna happen.

*see what I did there

Well I wouldn't take your word for it, this thread is now over 40 pages for bringing a ship into the game. People have been saying that about all sorts of things - no new factions, no Ghost, no new damage deck, FFG would never make the punisher and on and on. It hasn't stopped them, has it?