And that right there is the problem.

It might be in the novelization, sure, but that's not in the movie. Absolutely no movie-goer who's not read the book (and why would they before seeing the film?) has any clue that Rey has any idea how to do anything vehicle related other than fly a speeder around.

For decades, Star Wars has been about far more than just what's in the movies!!

As a 23 year old Star Wars fan who grew up playing Dark Forces and various Lucasarts titles, you definitely don't have to tell me that.

But the important part is, this is all valuable information that the movie utterly fails to tell us so that we may more effectively suspend our disbelief. Without knowing Rey is familiar with these things, the average viewer would call BS on her actions.

If they weren't afraid of being called misogynists, anyway.

Point is, Rey knows how to do that stuff- okay, that's fine. It was still her first time flying a YT-1300 that has an offset cockpit- flying it for real, in an extremely tense life or death situation... and without reading the novelization of the film which absolutely most people would never bother reading, even less buying, the viewer can not know that.

I knew that! But I still call BS, because that information should be in the film.

We got it with Luke. Why not Rey? Should we not hold the new films and characters to the standards of the Original Trilogy, and not the Prequel Trilogy? As much as I love the latter, it is not the standard I would measure any Star Wars media buy. Because Annie did it does not make it okay. That too, was BS.

I've read the last few pages of this thread with no doubt such an incredulous look on my face that I'm beginning to worry it'll stick.

It's like some of you guys are picking holes in a documentary or something...why would you care about any of this stuff?

The Force Awakens is a film full of X-Wings and TIE Fighters engaged in fantastic battles, Stormtroopers and cool new villains, amazing Lightsaber battles, the Millennium Falcon swooping through crashed Star Destroyers, lovable robots and characters both old and new that feel like friends and bring joy to your heart. It's those sort of things that Star Wars films are about and always have been.

If you really watch The Force Awakens and it's spoiled for you in any way due to a perceived lack of flight training that Rey may or may not have had or a gnawing doubt at the back of your mind that she shouldn't really have known how to perform a 'Jedi Mind Trick' then I honestly don't know why you'd bother.

I've read the last few pages of this thread with no doubt such an incredulous look on my face that I'm beginning to worry it'll stick.

It's like some of you guys are picking holes in a documentary or something...why would you care about any of this stuff?

The Force Awakens is a film full of X-Wings and TIE Fighters engaged in fantastic battles, Stormtroopers and cool new villains, amazing Lightsaber battles, the Millennium Falcon swooping through crashed Star Destroyers, lovable robots and characters both old and new that feel like friends and bring joy to your heart. It's those sort of things that Star Wars films are about and always have been.

If you really watch The Force Awakens and it's spoiled for you in any way due to a perceived lack of flight training that Rey may or may not have had or a gnawing doubt at the back of your mind that she shouldn't really have known how to perform a 'Jedi Mind Trick' then I honestly don't know why you'd bother.

That's a sticker for me too. I just don't like or care about Rey as a character. She does so many things that she just should not be able to do. But I love Finn, because he's got the training but never, ever goes beyond it until it's REALLY necessary.

He's just a guy. Nobody special. A terrified defector looking out for himself until he feels responsible for endangering somebody else who, hilariously, was never in danger because they can do everything themselves. I mean what really would have stopped Rey from getting to that TIE/SF and escaping?

Phasma, the polar opposite of Rey in terms of demonstrated ability? Yeah, I highly doubt it (which is a **** shame, I love the idea of Phasma.)

But Finn's just a guy. A soldier born and raised, and when push came to shove he couldn't even do what he was trained to do. He spends his whole time escaping the villains until its time to face The Big Bad One himself.

And he does so with flying colors for who and what he is- a terrified guy looking to protect somebody who's become a friend of his.

That is a real character. A character with limits, an agenda, who gets pushed and shoves when it's necessary, and though he fails, he still takes on this insurmountable challenge before him, and still manages to do something against it, even though it wasn't a victory.

That is why Finn is the best new character of the Star Wars franchise.

At no point did I say it spoiled the movie, lack of gunboats did that.

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

I've read the last few pages of this thread with no doubt such an incredulous look on my face that I'm beginning to worry it'll stick.

...

If you really watch The Force Awakens and it's spoiled for you in any way due to a perceived lack of flight training that Rey may or may not have had or a gnawing doubt at the back of your mind that she shouldn't really have known how to perform a 'Jedi Mind Trick' then I honestly don't know why you'd bother.

My opinion?

Sci-Fi and Fantasy only work with suspension of disbelief. This only works if the writers stick to "the rules" they established for the world. This also relates to canon of comics, books, movies, etc. and why people are particular about it.

I can believe that Superman gets his powers from a yellow sun and loses them in a red sun as long as the writers stick to it.

I can believe that space-wizards have the ability to overpower someone's will with their voice; however that takes years of training, including an order that trains people from near birth to learn how to do it. Its not something that you pick up over a weekend with no guidance. When someone does it, when someone breaks the established rules of the world, it throws a monkey-wrench in the illusion.

"Wait a minute...."

Finally the force isn't magic, every power is either telekinesis or telepathy, the force enhances mental and physical abilities.

Saying it's magic shows your understanding is as poor as jj's.

That's telekinesis exciting the air molecules to create a charge and directing it to ground through luke.

I'm very embarrassed for you right now.

It's really not. That is shooting magic lightning at people.

If Palpatine were able to rip the electrons off atoms telekinetically then throwing lightning around is probably the single least practical application of it.

Besides, psychokinesis is also magic, as is telepathy, precognition and absorbing plasma with one's hands.

The Force is supernatural and the Jedi are space wizards.

I've read the last few pages of this thread with no doubt such an incredulous look on my face that I'm beginning to worry it'll stick.

Don't worry, it's probably an improvement for you

It's like some of you guys are picking holes in a documentary or something...why would you care about any of this stuff?

The Force Awakens is a film full of X-Wings and TIE Fighters engaged in fantastic battles, Stormtroopers and cool new villains, amazing Lightsaber battles, the Millennium Falcon swooping through crashed Star Destroyers, lovable robots and characters both old and new that feel like friends and bring joy to your heart. It's those sort of things that Star Wars films are about and always have been.

If you really watch The Force Awakens and it's spoiled for you in any way due to a perceived lack of flight training that Rey may or may not have had or a gnawing doubt at the back of your mind that she shouldn't really have known how to perform a 'Jedi Mind Trick' then I honestly don't know why you'd bother.

I think you're making the mistake of assuming people are analysing the film logically and then deciding there's something wrong. I can't speak for these people, but if I were saying what they're saying (and I've said similar things before) it would be because something *felt* wrong to me, and I analysed it logically later to work out why it felt wrong to me. And also because I'm sexist.

And that right there is the problem.

It might be in the novelization, sure, but that's not in the movie. Absolutely no movie-goer who's not read the book (and why would they before seeing the film?) has any clue that Rey has any idea how to do anything vehicle related other than fly a speeder around.

For decades, Star Wars has been about far more than just what's in the movies!!

As a 23 year old Star Wars fan who grew up playing Dark Forces and various Lucasarts titles, you definitely don't have to tell me that.

I was in a boring meeting today at work then remembered I have KOTOR on my phone. Sweet.

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

Just think, it won't be long before we're seeing hit and run attacks from the Rebels in Rebels.

And once the X-Wings and Y-Wings start terrorising Imperial convoys and installations, the Empire will realise it needs an equaliser. .

GUNBOAT

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

Just think, it won't be long before we're seeing hit and run attacks from the Rebels in Rebels.

And once the X-Wings and Y-Wings start terrorising Imperial convoys and installations, the Empire will realise it needs an equaliser. .

GUNBOAT

The problem i see here is that Disney somewhat changed the Empires' methodology. Unlike in TIE Fighter there are now Gozantis carrying 4 Tie Fighters to react. There is no need and no case for Gunboats yet. Unless the need of ion cannons emerge to disable crafts.

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

Just think, it won't be long before we're seeing hit and run attacks from the Rebels in Rebels.

And once the X-Wings and Y-Wings start terrorising Imperial convoys and installations, the Empire will realise it needs an equaliser. .

GUNBOAT

The problem i see here is that Disney somewhat changed the Empires' methodology. Unlike in TIE Fighter there are now Gozantis carrying 4 Tie Fighters to react. There is no need and no case for Gunboats yet. Unless the need of ion cannons emerge to disable crafts.

Gozanti with 4 TIEs might be more expensive or more maintenance heavy compared to 4 GUNBOATS but it depends on a lot of factors, including the cost of those hyperdrives and the utility of having shielded fighters with heavier weapons. What did the crew of a Gozanti number, less than a dozen?

The problem i see here is that Disney somewhat changed the Empires' methodology. Unlike in TIE Fighter there are now Gozantis carrying 4 Tie Fighters to react. There is no need and no case for Gunboats yet. Unless the need of ion cannons emerge to disable crafts.

And a light corvette (Vigil?) carrying a trio of TIE interceptors.

That's a sticker for me too. I just don't like or care about Rey as a character. She does so many things that she just should not be able to do. But I love Finn, because he's got the training but never, ever goes beyond it until it's REALLY necessary.

And quite clearly shows the limits of that training; being a decent - actually pretty impressive - gunner - but getting the ever-loving stuffing beaten out of him by a nameless dude with a shock stick whilst trying to use a lightsaber.

And a light corvette (Vigil?) carrying a trio of TIE interceptors.

I'm pretty sure the Interceptor-carrier ship in Rebels was yet another Arquitens.

ARGH KITTENS!!!

Those things are 300 meters long! A whole squadron of GUNBOATS have to be cheaper than that! And can be split up into strike teams and deployed into different theaters.

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

Just think, it won't be long before we're seeing hit and run attacks from the Rebels in Rebels.

And once the X-Wings and Y-Wings start terrorising Imperial convoys and installations, the Empire will realise it needs an equaliser. .

GUNBOAT

The problem i see here is that Disney somewhat changed the Empires' methodology. Unlike in TIE Fighter there are now Gozantis carrying 4 Tie Fighters to react. There is no need and no case for Gunboats yet. Unless the need of ion cannons emerge to disable crafts.

"I've outrun imperial ships- Not the local (Gozanti) Bulk Transports, mind you, I'm talking the big Corellian (design inspired Argkittens) ships."

ohpfft

Really do want to see Gunboats in Disneywars though, because they've done a great job making some seriously cool stuff Canon.

Just think, it won't be long before we're seeing hit and run attacks from the Rebels in Rebels.

And once the X-Wings and Y-Wings start terrorising Imperial convoys and installations, the Empire will realise it needs an equaliser. .

GUNBOAT

The problem i see here is that Disney somewhat changed the Empires' methodology. Unlike in TIE Fighter there are now Gozantis carrying 4 Tie Fighters to react. There is no need and no case for Gunboats yet. Unless the need of ion cannons emerge to disable crafts.

That might have worked fir the early seasons of Rebels, but not once they get the X-Wings.

You see, the X-Wing was originally being developed by Incom for the Empire. Which meant that at the point it was being developed, the Empire saw a need for a hyperspace capable, multi-role space superiority snubfighter.

Then the Rebels stole it.

At which point the Empire needed a hyperspace capable, multi-role space superiority snubfighter EVEN MORE.

So technically, if the Rebels hadn't stolen the X-Wing, the Empire wouldn't have needed the GUNBOAT.

But they did. And they do.

"I've outrun imperial ships- Not the local (Gozanti) Bulk Transports, mind you, I'm talking the big Corellian (design inspired Argkittens) ships."

Is the Gozanti really a bulk cruiser? Surely it's a light carrier - they can't be the same thing?

That might have worked fir the early seasons of Rebels, but not once they get the X-Wings.

You see, the X-Wing was originally being developed by Incom for the Empire. Which meant that at the point it was being developed, the Empire saw a need for a hyperspace capable, multi-role space superiority snubfighter.

Then the Rebels stole it.

At which point the Empire needed a hyperspace capable, multi-role space superiority snubfighter EVEN MORE.

So technically, if the Rebels hadn't stolen the X-Wing, the Empire wouldn't have needed the GUNBOAT.

But they did. And they do.

Is that canon?

Is the Gozanti really a bulk cruiser? Surely it's a light carrier - they can't be the same thing?

Terms get used pretty loosely. In Steps into Shadow, 2 corvettes and a Quasar-Fire are described as "three star cruisers" by the Imperials.

"I've outrun imperial ships- Not the local (Gozanti) Bulk Transports, mind you, I'm talking the big Corellian (design inspired Argkittens) ships."

Is the Gozanti really a bulk cruiser? Surely it's a light carrier - they can't be the same thing?

Gozanti is an Armed Transport- The imperil modified a bunch into light carriers.

It might not be much of a bulk transport by core standards, but it's still bigger than Han's Falcon.

a YT-1300 that has an offset cockpit

Just wanted to point out that this particular point really isn't one to hang your hat on. The offset cockpit has literally never been an issue with the Falcon. I'm pretty sure you never see the rest of the ship from inside the cockpit and it's just another inconsistency between the internal and external Falcon parts. As far as the people inside the Falcon are concerned, it's just a cockpit, a short corridor, and a ladder with guns at the top and bottom.

"I've outrun imperial ships- Not the local (Gozanti) Bulk Transports, mind you, I'm talking the big Corellian (design inspired Argkittens) ships."

Is the Gozanti really a bulk cruiser? Surely it's a light carrier - they can't be the same thing?

Gozanti is an Armed Transport- The imperil modified a bunch into light carriers.

It might not be much of a bulk transport by core standards, but it's still bigger than Han's Falcon.

Most importantly the Gozanti has been seen on Tatooone in a primary canon source, but of course that was the civilian version over a decade before the Empire. It's easy to see Han thinking of the Imperial Assault Carriers as Local Bulk Crusiers, and the ARGH KITTENS being much larger as well as Corellian designed. ISDs seem to be able to easily outrun the Falcon on several instances, so Han is not referring to those. I can totally see this working in the new canon.

Is that canon?

It is in the material where the Gunboat exists, and since we're talking about the Gunboat, that's the only material that matters.

HOWEVER... when we're talking about "official" (yes, it deserves the inverted commas) Star Wars canon, then none of the stories released so far cover the time period where the Alliance gained the X-Wing. Rebels is approaching it, and Rogue One is set after it.. although we may find out more in December. Certainly the Partisan X-Wing has a very Imperial colour scheme...

Back to Gozantis and the "change" in Imperial doctrine. That's a fallacy. The Empire's use of Gozanti Armed Transports and Arquitens-class Transports in The Clone Wars and Rebels TV Shows does not represent a change in the classic Imperial doctrine. These shows are prequels to the Star Wars trilogy, and as such the use of these ships represents a PRECURSOR to the classic Imperial doctrine.

Modified Gozantis as TIE carriers were clearly useful to the Empire in it's infancy, when all they were facing were Clone-Wars era ships and rag-tag groups of individuals. However, once the arms race with the Rebellion escalated,these ships would struggle to pull their weight against an equivalent value in hyperspace-capable snubfighters.

One Gozanti carrying four TIEs would be no match for a small Rebel strikeforce (say two X-Wings and two Y-Wings, although I imagine even fewer ships would be able to manage it with ease).

Have to agree with Gecko. The Imperial Gonzantis were pretty much overhauled civilian freighters which could supplement a convoy's firepower but couldn't act as a strike force in its own right. They were on the tail end of a time where the Empire probably expected small bands of pirates or a handful of insurgents to rise up against them. The Ghost only had to pump a couple of volleys into a Gonzanti to destroy it (although the Ghost would probably take down the Executor if the two fought it out in a Rebels episode). They just didn't have the durability to fight anything more powerful than Phoenix Squadron (and that's saying a lot!).

So that leaves the Empire with the choice of either using Arquitens for every escort mission requiring hyperspace, or to develop a fighter that could make the hyperspace jump with no need of a carrier ship. We have 3 small ships that have been shown during that period that could be used for the role. The TIE Advanced's V and X, and the Lambda shuttle. The Advanced fighters were known to be too expensive to mass produce, and the Lambda is no good as a space superiority craft.

Can't really strip down the TIEs since the hyperdrive is the bulk of their expense, so maybe we could make a smaller more streamlined variant of the Lambda? Any candidates in the EU? Oh right!

Rho Rho Rho GUNBOAT

Make the Rebels scream!

Hyper in and get the win

and blast those ion beams!