Because crawling through something slowly clearly equates with flying through at high speed...

I guess you missed the part where she spent her evenings flying flight sims.

Literally anybody who only watched the movie, would have missed that part.

That's the kind of detail that should at least be mentioned.

Luke was established to already be an experienced pilot used to flying in enclosed canyons and well practiced at shooting small targets, he trained for the trench run for years without knowing it.

That's not a Gary stue.

Ray was not established as a pilot yet performs feats even a veteran would think twice about in a ship she's never flown before.

Anakin was a Gary stue, he got into an unfamiliar vehicle type flew into combat where experienced pilots die in droves then takes out the mother ship solo.

And people hate Anakin.

I'm with Hobo here.

Luke was not successful only because of the force, he was a legitimate experienced pilot. Sure he hadn't ever fought in a ship before, but you know, it's kind of a Rick Hunter situation.

Anakin had zero reason to be good at this kind of stuff.

Because crawling through something slowly clearly equates with flying through at high speed...

I guess you missed the part where she spent her evenings flying flight sims.

Taking Armor training simulator runs on Fort Knox doesn't make me a Tanker. The point is she becomes proficient at it, because lol plot armor. Hell, all of her field work is questionable, yet she seems to do better than trained pilots and commandos because of the farce.

I take back what I said, getting a refund for ebooks is a much better way to vent my frustration and a nice **** you to a particular sellout.

This is actually why I hate the Force in Star Wars. Because pretty much every character that survives/does something extravagant is Force Sensitive. What about all the other guys/gals? They just get left in the dust, they die to get information about a moon.

Just give me Stormtroopers that can actually shoot and pit them against Rebels. Leave the Jedi/Sith out. I will be entertained.

Fortunately, Rogue One is out in two months and doesn't look like it has a Jedi or Sith main character. One force sensitive guy, maybe. And he's not the lead.

Hobo better call NASA and tell them they can cancel the space flight portions of their mission training, because flying the space shuttle is apparently as easy as flying a Piper Cub - and then call the Air Force and tell them that they can save a bunch of money on the F-35 by having pilots train using Piper Cubs instead of F-35s.

Because when we're talking about Luke, that's what we're talking about: A guy with some hours on a Piper Cub (a bush plane) being put into the literal equivalent of an F-5 Freedom Fighter that can fly in space. A guy with no military training. No formation training. No time flying in the black. No training with a weapon system more complicated than a lightly-powered blaster.

And yet somehow he's able to score a number of kills in dog fights against some of the Empire's best pilots, evades turbolaser fire from the Death Star better than more seasoned pilots, keeps the best pilot in the Galaxy from being able to severely damage his fighter, and is one of two X-Wing pilots to survive the attack on the Death Star. And then he makes the kill shot on the Death Star with his X-wing's targeting computer turned off - in a ship that he hadn't spent nearly enough time to gain any sort of instinctive feel for its handling, with totally different weapon systems that he had no experience with using.

This is in addition to being able to handle himself pretty well in multiple firefights against Imperial Stormtroopers, despite being outnumbered every single time, and despite occasionally being the only one in the group with a blaster (after splitting the party with Leia). And tying Han Solo - an experienced shootist and space pilot - in kills on the Falcon's gun turrets.

WRT Die Hard, police training? Really? Police training is more about how to properly fill out and file paperwork and de-escalate potentially violent situations. There is nothing in police training beyond the usual "warrior mindset" crap that could remotely prepare an officer of the NYPD for the sort of things that happened at Nakatomi Plaza. And I'm not talking about using firehoses to rappel down buildings or taping guns to your back, here, I'm talking about just gunfighting. While large police departments like NYPD have the tools to teach gunfighting, most cops have zero interest in learning how to fight with a gun. Most cops show up for their qual, shoot their 50 rounds for the year, and then never shoot their weapons again (until it's time to requal the next year).

Hobo better call NASA and tell them they can cancel the space flight portions of their mission training, because flying the space shuttle is apparently as easy as flying a Piper Cub - and then call the Air Force and tell them that they can save a bunch of money on the F-35 by having pilots train using Piper Cubs instead of F-35s.

Because when we're talking about Luke, that's what we're talking about: A guy with some hours on a Piper Cub (a bush plane) being put into the literal equivalent of an F-5 Freedom Fighter that can fly in space. A guy with no military training. No formation training. No time flying in the black. No training with a weapon system more complicated than a lightly-powered blaster.

And yet somehow he's able to score a number of kills in dog fights against some of the Empire's best pilots, evades turbolaser fire from the Death Star better than more seasoned pilots, keeps the best pilot in the Galaxy from being able to severely damage his fighter, and is one of two X-Wing pilots to survive the attack on the Death Star. And then he makes the kill shot on the Death Star with his X-wing's targeting computer turned off - in a ship that he hadn't spent nearly enough time to gain any sort of instinctive feel for its handling, with totally different weapon systems that he had no experience with using.

This is in addition to being able to handle himself pretty well in multiple firefights against Imperial Stormtroopers, despite being outnumbered every single time, and despite occasionally being the only one in the group with a blaster (after splitting the party with Leia). And tying Han Solo - an experienced shootist and space pilot - in kills on the Falcon's gun turrets.

"Uhhhh....the Force!" Cries Star Wars.

Hobo better call NASA and tell them they can cancel the space flight portions of their mission training, because flying the space shuttle is apparently as easy as flying a Piper Cub - and then call the Air Force and tell them that they can save a bunch of money on the F-35 by having pilots train using Piper Cubs instead of F-35s.

Because when we're talking about Luke, that's what we're talking about: A guy with some hours on a Piper Cub (a bush plane) being put into the literal equivalent of an F-5 Freedom Fighter that can fly in space. A guy with no military training. No formation training. No time flying in the black. No training with a weapon system more complicated than a lightly-powered blaster.

And yet somehow he's able to score a number of kills in dog fights against some of the Empire's best pilots, evades turbolaser fire from the Death Star better than more seasoned pilots, keeps the best pilot in the Galaxy from being able to severely damage his fighter, and is one of two X-Wing pilots to survive the attack on the Death Star. And then he makes the kill shot on the Death Star with his X-wing's targeting computer turned off - in a ship that he hadn't spent nearly enough time to gain any sort of instinctive feel for its handling, with totally different weapon systems that he had no experience with using.

This is in addition to being able to handle himself pretty well in multiple firefights against Imperial Stormtroopers, despite being outnumbered every single time, and despite occasionally being the only one in the group with a blaster (after splitting the party with Leia). And tying Han Solo - an experienced shootist and space pilot - in kills on the Falcon's gun turrets.

"Uhhhh....the Force!" Cries Star Wars.

Well yeah, and that was kind of the point, we don't have a problem with Luke doing it. But as soon as it's Rey suddenly she is a Mary Sue. Someone we know has at least worked on the Falcon at some point, knew the area she was flying through like the back of her thumb. Actually has some combat experience with a staff. And tbh I think we will find also possibly had some training as a Jedi she is repressing.

The other thing that people don't seem to notice is that she was dumped on a desert planet. The force is generated from living creatures. There was a scene where they were landing at Maz's place were she feels her connection to the force snap in due to the plant and wildlife, then it gets reinforced by the lightsaber.

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

Rey on the other hand saves herself and other characters.

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

Rey on the other hand saves herself and other characters.

Basically this.

Rey has to be saved multiple times as well.

We can really stretch and twist the parameters of this argument to support whatever conclusions we please. Suffice to say, there's a historical precedent in media for impressive feats by female characters being written off as some kind of propagandistic power fantasy whereas men's impressive feats are not treated with the same skepticism. The notion that this sort of power fantasy is fine when it's a "guy movie" and incongruous when it's a woman is strange to me.

But this is by the by. It's all I want to say on the topic and I've no interest in further debating it because I don't think minds are going to change, at this point.

Reason I'm commenting is that this overflogged dead horse is dragging the thread WAY off topic. Can we PLEASE get back to discussing the Gunboat? I'd hate to see this thread dragged off topic and locked.

I've been checking the thread for a few days now and nothing's really changed, so I figured it was worth mentioning that we need to perhaps get our hands back on the rudder.

(Editing lots of typos out. Slow going on a phone)

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

...and by Obi Wan in the Jundland Wastes. Onk onk onk.

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

...and by Obi Wan in the Jundland Wastes. Onk onk onk.

very true.

Had the sand people possessed gunboats they could of taken him.

Rey is Vader's reincarnation. That's why she has all of his powers and skills. And a connection to his lightsaber. And why Luke dumped her on a desert world instead of training her. Because she's a
Convergence in the Force, and is just as dangerous as Anakin. And why Luke looks super sad seeing her holding his lightsaber.

I'd trade all ships from Rebels for the Gunboat.

I'd trade Sabine's TIE for an empty space containing nothing at all.

Luke was established to already be an experienced pilot used to flying in enclosed canyons and well practiced at shooting small targets, he trained for the trench run for years without knowing it.

That's not a Gary stue.

Ray was not established as a pilot yet performs feats even a veteran would think twice about in a ship she's never flown before.

Anakin was a Gary stue, he got into an unfamiliar vehicle type flew into combat where experienced pilots die in droves then takes out the mother ship solo.

And people hate Anakin.

Theres no denying that she is a Mary Sue and written to act almost as bad as a radical feminist, i however have to disagree with your assessment of littile Ani from ep 1. The ship flew itself most the time, and he got soft curbed after flying the n-1 manually. Him blowing up the Carrier could be a light gary stew moment but i feel its more luck than anything.

Wait why is Ray being mention in the Star Wing topic?

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

Rey on the other hand saves herself and other characters.

You have access to a military training simulator?

Because I don't know if you've ever been to flight school before, but you spend a shedload of time in simulators before they send you up in anything more complicated than a Cessna 172.

Wait why is Ray being mention in the Star Wing topic?

I blame FTS Gecko

I blame me too.

So anyway, has anyone given the Gunboat a run out on Vassal yet?

I would if someone would make a decent version of it for Vassal.

I don't like Rey.

In one minute she's gone from crashing the falcon into a sand dune, to flying through the superstructure of a completely unlit Super Star Destroyer in a fat vessel with an offset cockpit.

There's more to my dislike her but knowing how to fly the Falcon like a pro after a minute of flight is numero uno.

This is the same Falcon that Lando flies through the inside of the Death Star, and as far as we know he's not even force sensitive (you might not like it, but "the force gives people magical powers" is kinda a key part of star Wars.). The Falcon's clearly surprisingly good in such situations.

Also, why are we supposed to assume she has little or no flight experience? Which part of the film suggested that?

Lando owned the falcon before Han did and flew it after Han was put into carbonite, he is intimately familiar with the ship and still be took off the dish.

Rey says she's never flown the falcon in the movie I'm fairly sure.

Finally the force isn't magic, every power is either telekinesis or telepathy, the force enhances mental and physical abilities.

Saying it's magic shows your understanding is as poor as jj's.

Lando owned the falcon before Han did and flew it after Han was put into carbonite, he is intimately familiar with the ship and still be took off the dish.

Rey says she's never flown the falcon in the movie I'm fairly sure.

Finally the force isn't magic, every power is either telekinesis or telepathy, the force enhances mental and physical abilities.

Saying it's magic shows your understanding is as poor as jj's.

The force is far more than telekenesis or telepathy. Sensing the connections between all things is the number one power that the force provides, allowing for quicker reflexes, being in the right place at the right time, seeing the future, getting bad feelings about things, ect. Telekenesis is like the least useful ability that uses the interconnectedness through the force unless you want to float food over to your date to impress her with year one hogwarts parlor tricks. Force push! Why not just blast them instead?

Rey was very familiar with the falcon and the large wrecks on Jakku, and has flown some ships before. It's not unbelievable that she could fly the way she did, especially with her inborn talents awakening in the force.

But haters gonna hate.

The Force is also most known to provide superhuman reflexes to even the youngest novices. In Episode 4, it is basically Luke's first achievement to deflect the training ball laser shots. Something that Han can only rationalize as pure luck.

That alone is enough to make Anakin win the pod race, and Rey to navigate the super star destroyer.

The Force is also most known to provide superhuman reflexes to even the youngest novices. In Episode 4, it is basically Luke's first achievement to deflect the training ball laser shots. Something that Han can only rationalize as pure luck.

That alone is enough to make Anakin win the pod race, and Rey to navigate the super star destroyer.

Exactly. We've no problem with somebody catching bullets with a stick after a minute's training, but flying a ship through a tunnel is absurd? OK...

So real world experience flying a single seat craft through canyons is not worth more than playing a simulator?

Well **** i'll join the army I'm sure they'll have me in a ah64-D by weeks end.

And while I'm at it i'll walk through NYC before taking a plane through because that's all ill need to avoid all those buildings.

Fine another reason Luke's not a Marty stue is he needed to be saved at least three times in hope, by obi wan in the cantina, by the droids In the trash compactor, and by wedge and Han at the death star trench run.

...and by Obi Wan in the Jundland Wastes. Onk onk onk.

And Leia who took his blaster and blew open the trash compactor to get them out of the hallway.

Or Wedge who had to save him from Dark Curse during the dogfight of Yavin.

Han saves him from the cold on Hoth.

Leia saves him from the ventral antenna structure on Bespin.

Han saves him from Boba Fett at the Great Pit of Carkoon.

Darth Vader saves him from Palpatine.

Luke was established to already be an experienced pilot used to flying in enclosed canyons and well practiced at shooting small targets, he trained for the trench run for years without knowing it.

That's not a Gary stue.

Ray was not established as a pilot yet performs feats even a veteran would think twice about in a ship she's never flown before.

Anakin was a Gary stue, he got into an unfamiliar vehicle type flew into combat where experienced pilots die in droves then takes out the mother ship solo.

And people hate Anakin.

Theres no denying that she is a Mary Sue and written to act almost as bad as a radical feminist, i however have to disagree with your assessment of littile Ani from ep 1. The ship flew itself most the time, and he got soft curbed after flying the n-1 manually. Him blowing up the Carrier could be a light gary stew moment but i feel its more luck than anything.

Because crawling through something slowly clearly equates with flying through at high speed...

I guess you missed the part where she spent her evenings flying flight sims.

Literally anybody who only watched the movie, would have missed that part.

That's the kind of detail that should at least be mentioned.

Luke was established to already be an experienced pilot used to flying in enclosed canyons and well practiced at shooting small targets, he trained for the trench run for years without knowing it.

That's not a Gary stue.

Ray was not established as a pilot yet performs feats even a veteran would think twice about in a ship she's never flown before.

Anakin was a Gary stue, he got into an unfamiliar vehicle type flew into combat where experienced pilots die in droves then takes out the mother ship solo.

And people hate Anakin.

I'm with Hobo here.

Luke was not successful only because of the force, he was a legitimate experienced pilot. Sure he hadn't ever fought in a ship before, but you know, it's kind of a Rick Hunter situation.

Anakin had zero reason to be good at this kind of stuff.

Lando owned the falcon before Han did and flew it after Han was put into carbonite, he is intimately familiar with the ship and still be took off the dish.

Rey says she's never flown the falcon in the movie I'm fairly sure.

Finally the force isn't magic, every power is either telekinesis or telepathy, the force enhances mental and physical abilities.

Saying it's magic shows your understanding is as poor as jj's.

All Rey did with her free time was crawl around ship wreckage (including the SSD she flew through) and train in a flight simulator - plus, considering her capability with the staff, she has taken care of herself in many prior situations and has no problem wielding melee weapons. I don't think movies should have to spell things out via dialog, as viewers should be able to infer these things from scenes of her spend her days scavenging for very specific parts that she clearly understands. That said, Rey's prior experiences are very explicitly detailed in the novelization:

(Regarding the Falcon:)

“I’d spent some time poking around all the ships parked at the outpost. Mostly at night. It was a way to learn some things. I was careful, and nobody much cared anyway, since I never took anything or tried anything.” She brightened. “Made it a lot easier when we filched this one. Though it wasn’t my first choice.”

(Regarding her pilot abilities:)

"She learned so much that there was little the program could throw her way that would challenge her now. She’d gotten to the point where she would, quite deliberately, do everything she could think of to make things hard on herself, just to see if she could get out of it. Full-throttle atmospheric reentry with repulsor-engine failure? No sweat. Multiple hull breach deep-space engine flameout? A walk in the park."

She's a very knowledgeable and capable scavenger with force sensitivity. Also, this is Star Wars, where space vessels are essentially as common to own and fly as automobiles are in reality.

Regarding her characterization, none of the characters are direct parallels to another from a different trilogy, but they all seem to be a mix, with Kylo Ren being an inversion. Rey, in particular, is carrying more traits of young Anakin than his own grandson is, who is busy struggling to ignore his calling to the light side and embrace the dark. Rey is the force prodigy living in a world more akin to Luke's. There are loads of parallels between the two to create thematic familiarity within the story arc, but the characters are still fundamentally unique.

Also, gunboats are cool.