Do i get a Astartes Servo Haress when i buy the Servo Harness Integration talent or do i have to buy it with Signature Wargear(Hero) on Level 8?

And how can i get a Expectional Servo Harness when the costs are 75 points of requisition and with Signature Wargear(Hero) i can only buy things up to 70 points of requisition?

Cybernetics are a bit odd because you pay for them once from normal mission Requisition points but get to keep them forever. So what you need is to be Rank 4+, buy the Talent AND be Famed renown and have 50 Req to spare on a mission.

Alex

Here is the official rules answer on bionics.

"The rules for bionic replacements are not intended to be purchased with requisition unless extenuating circumstances arise that make the replacements necessary ."

A servo harness is not itself a replacement for a lost limb. So it is not purchased like a typical replacement arm. You could use standard requisition each mission to requisition a servo harness for that mission since they are essentially plug and play with the techmarine. For a permanent set you'd have to buy it with sig wargear.

There are no official rules for manufacturing your own equipment, but since the skills are in the game I always suggest the following: A techmarine can spend XP as an elite advance equal to 500 xp per 20 req points and then take extended tech-use tests (1 every 6 hours for instance) with the results affecting final results (multiple failures the equipment is shoddy). You would need the skills to build the equipment (in this case Tech-Use and Forbiden knowledge- Admech). For a cybernetic servo harness at req 50 would be 1500xp, requiring (spitballing here) 50 hours of work. To make a higher quality set you'd have to spend 2000XP, and take 80-100 hours of work and your tests would be harder (say -20 to the tests). These are not official, but they would be how I would deal with manufacturing personal equipment.

Here is the official rules answer on bionics.

"The rules for bionic replacements are not intended to be purchased with requisition unless extenuating circumstances arise that make the replacements necessary ."

Yeah but this is only to prevent abuse of the pay-once-install-forever rules by (especially) non-Techmarine Astartes.

For Techmarines, page 177 is in full effect:

"It is important to note that the Requisition cost for a Cybernetic is a one-time payment. Once the cybernetic is installed, the character possesses it until he dies." Yes, the SH can be unplugged but that doesn't mean the PC has to pay for it all over again. Once paid for, it's his. (A Servo-Harness is not replacement anyway, btw. Your quote does not apply.)

Page 125 gives explicit clearance on the SH:

"The Techmarine may be fitted with and use a Servoharness (see page 177 in Chapter V: Armoury) and may use weapons fitted to the harness in which he is proficient."

[if he meets Renown requirements and pays the Req once; there is no rule that requires him to use Signature Wargear]

Alex

If you are going to consider the servo harness as a replacement limb, you need to ask yourself, what necessary replacement is a servo harness fulfilling? The same for an Auger array. If you aren't replacing something natural, lost in the normal course of events, then you can't get it the normal way (i.e. paying mission req).

The servo harness would count as an Implant system (as cybernetics rules work in the other settings), rather than a replacement. Deathwatch doesn't differentiate between them since space marines are not known for their desire for optional cybernetic implants (there are rules for techmarines for this on 176 though, which allows for installation of servo harness and auger arrays).

"May" does not mean must, nor does it give any indication of how.

I think the intent of the cybernetics is fairly obvious. But continuing the line of thought you brought up, your quote about paying once and it's yours relates to replacement cybernetics (the intent is fairly obvious). Therefore it doesn't apply to servo harnesses any more or less than the official rule I listed above.

The SH is not a replacement, which is why your quote of Tim doesn't apply.

If you aren't replacing something natural, lost in the normal course of events, then you can't get it the normal way (i.e. paying mission req).

Where do you take that from? The Servo Integration talent at least indicates to me that you can. In fact, the whole Solo Mode ability of the Iron Hands tells me that you definitely can. Or would you recommend that Iron Hands are forced to mutilate themselves to make full use of their Solo Mode ability? At minimum, a Techmarine can get a SH as master-level cybernetic when reaching Famed renown (page 176). Personally, I would be way more liberal about installing cybernetics outside of those freebies. The flesh is weak after all. Would an Apothecary really go against the philosophy of the Adeptus Mechanicus and refuse to install an Auger Array for a Techmarine? I find it hard to believe that.

Going by RAW, pay-once applies to all cybernetics, no exception. Not just for replacements. Btw, there is also no loophole for Signature Wargear. There is no rule whatsoever (as far as I am aware of) that says: you need to pay for this cybernetics with SW, you can't buy it with normal mission Requisition. That's a house rule of people that don't like pay-once-keep-forever. You either can buy it with Req or you can't buy it with Signature Wargear either.

Alex

I thought you had to return items bought with Renown after the mission. Doesn't that just mean they dig the cybernetics out of you once the mission is over?

I thought you had to return items bought with Renown after the mission. Doesn't that just mean they dig the cybernetics out of you once the mission is over?

No because that would be absolutely ridiculous from a narrative standpoint.

Also I see a clear difference between a replacement left arm and a thing attached to your backpack, operated through DNI via the Black Carapace (i.e. a servo arm or harness). A Techmarine who removes his armor removes the Servo-Arm with it. But removing his armor does not remove his surgically-grafted metal arm. Requisitioning a servo-harness is more analogous to requisitioning a heavy flamer for the mission than it is to replacing a leg that was hacked off.

Letting a Techmarine pay for a servo-harness in req once and keep it forever (absent buying it with Signature Wargear) just further perpetuates the huge abuses specifically applicable to Techmarines.

Well, if you want to house-rule it as such, I'm fine with that. But by RAW, you're not required to use SW.

Me, I think Cybernetics is one of the things that Techmarines have going for them. It's their psy powers. And I think Artificer Armour and Servo-Harness are pretty much standard gear for Famed level Techmarines. Note that there is distinctly no SW(Servo-Harness).

Alex

Maybe it's a house rule, but it's certainly common sense. The harness isn't part of your body unlike a replacement arm; take off your armor and you take off the harness that's plugged into it.

They can still take SW for it. They're not being discriminated against because they don't have a separate SW entry for the harness. I'll point out they're the only base specialty that gets any SW on their spec table (for Artificer armor, no less), versus needing to take it from the General table or off an Advanced Spec table.

I tend to be a rules stickler, but I assume the Space Marines all have a comprehensive medical insurance policy. Lost limbs are replaced. Anything less would be an inefficient misuse of resources.

Limb replacement without extra benifit seems likely. If returning their augmentics after the mission seems 'ridiculous from a narative standpoint', then maybe you should just require that the player always spend the Req every mission as he is still outfitted with the wargear. That way you are both making sense in the narative standpoint, and not encouraging self mutilation for power for the meta stanpoint. At least it will keep power gamers from 'holding the door open with their arm, therefore losing it and needing a replacement'. No reason to penalize players who actually try to keep their valuable resources (such as limbs) intact.

I would let players replace the limb with standard (fully functional, but not boosted) replacement without paying Req. They are that valuable to the Imperium. But anything that provides a significant boost should be payed for each time they go out.

That way you are both making sense in the narative standpoint, and not encouraging self mutilation for power for the meta stanpoint. At least it will keep power gamers from 'holding the door open with their arm, therefore losing it and needing a replacement'. No reason to penalize players who actually try to keep their valuable resources (such as limbs) intact.

(1) On a crunch level, Req expenditures can be vetoed by the GM. "No, you can't lop off your arm to replace it with a metal one just because you have the spare Req to do it."

(2) Keeping true to the fluff can easily be enforced by the GM. For anyone but a Techmarine to casually lop off limbs, a GM is entirely within the right to role-play that scene with someone who would have to authorize the procedure. And who exactly would? I think most Watch-Captains would be concerned about that kind of deviant thinking in a non-Techmarine. Most (non-insane or deviant or heretical) Astartes see their organic geneseed-enhanced bodies as a weaponized, pure human form, replacing body parts only when necessitated by unfixable damage.

Really the "Req for cyber" rules are a total clusterf***. The RAW on this should never have been put in place because the RAW is completely nonsensical. Techmarines "for free" getting new cyber at certain ranks makes sense in-setting due to their devotion to the Omnissiah. Free replacements for body parts destroyed during a mission make sense, to keep an Astarte in optimal fighting condition despite loss of limb. The Req rules themselves create the options for the kind of stupid munchkinry they seemed to be intended to prevent.

Is it so hard though?

Techmarines and Iron hands can requisition cybernetics. Techmarines also get freebies at some renown ranks. Everyone else gets mere replacements if injury requires it.

Alex

Sure, some characters get free replacements, but nowhere in the rules does it address recovery time, though this can be extrapolated from the medicae rules and critical hit charts.

Sure, some characters get free replacements, but nowhere in the rules does it address recovery time, though this can be extrapolated from the medicae rules and critical hit charts.

Page 176. Last sentance of the first paragraph of the Cybernetics chapter in the Core rulebook.