So...Ancestors' Rage. A 500-XP power that increases WS by +5 per PR (pretty sweet) but also...gives a number of Exotic Melee Proficiency equal to PR?

What's the point of the latter?

For starters, any weapon with the "Astartes" name, you're automatically proficient in. That's...gonna be most things that would otherwise be Exotic. And the power is melee weapons only.

So...barring granting use of a xenos weapon (which is, uh, heretical as all get-out at a baseline), what good is the second part of this power? There are niche situations where a xenos weapon is all you are gonna have access to (very niche imo) and you're probably going to take Insanity just for using them (again imo, because they're HERESY). +5 WS per PR is already awesome, and the power is cheap as hell...

Anyone had an in-game scenario where that EWP was actually useful? What'd your player use it for?

Well if you are stuck with only a xeno blade you call that power so you can fight till you are the only one with limbs.

Using xenotech is a bit radical, but Deathwatch are space marines, not dark heresy acolytes *******

Well if you are stuck with only a xeno blade you call that power so you can fight till you are the only one with limbs.

Well...you're a psyker, so you always have that too.

Using xenotech is a bit radical, but Deathwatch are space marines, not dark heresy acolytes *******

I mean, heresy is still heresy. Inquisitors and their acolytes actually get more of a institutional pass that Space Marine chapters.

So, I'm guessing the main value of this power is cheap +WS. Which I can definitely get behind, don't get me wrong. If you get to disarm a Lychguard and use his glaive once in the campaign, that's just icing on the cake.

Two words:

Crucible Resolviate.

Alex

Space marines are nothing if not practical. If the only way to kill a xenos about to fire a sun-exploding weapon is to bend down and pick up a xenos weapon and shoot the bad guy, an Astartes wouldn't think twice about doing it. Some chapters may respond with a day or two of fasting in recompense (which is like saying, "I'm sorry," for us normal humans), but with the exception of an exceedingly tiny minority of chapters, that's about it.

Let us not forget, Space Marines do not submit to the Imperial cult, nor are subject to inquisitorial rule. Grey Knights being an exception and while serving among the Death Watch: a very muddled grey area.

Space Marines do not submit to the Imperial cult, nor are subject to inquisitorial rule.

Um. There's lots of evidence of Space Marines being prosecuted by the Inquisition for heresy. Sometimes legit, sometimes trumped-up. Everyone is subject to the =][=

Also the rest of your post doesn't mean this power is useful beyond the WS boost. Melee weapons only

No, the Inquisition has no formal authority over space marines.

This does not mean they are free from the eye of the inquisition, which takes its job seriously (generally). If an inquisitor ever took, or is proven to have taken action against a chapter without good reason, it could spark a war between the Imperium and space marines (who aren't part of the imperium, they just fight to defend it).

Sure an inquisitor can take unilateral action at the risk of being found out and creating the conflict above. They've tried before, such as sending a fleet to Fenris only to have the wolves shoot it up and send it running. No chapters made a fuss over it.

For an inquisitor to act against a chapter, he would have to bring his evidence to other space marine chapters in order to convince them of their brother's malfeasance. Once convinced the chapters would either take action themselves, or sanction the inquisitor's plan (possibly taking part). This is vitally important, convincing other chapters of the suspect's guilt removes any ambiguity of purpose when taking action against the accused. Otherwise the other chapters may simply think the Imperium or inquisition had some personal grudge against the chapter in question and would be justified in taking reprisals against the offending party (imperium).

Remember, Space Marine chapters are not part of the Imperium in any formal manner. The Imperium does not give them orders or have any power, other than that granted by mutually agreed and signed treaties, over the chapter.

Do you have a cite for this stuff? What you're saying is pretty frequently contradicted by existing lore and novels. And in the current 40k edition (ridiculous as it is) the Chapters are under the Administratum. Even before that they were outside the normal chain of command but part of the Imperium. An Inquisitor acts with the authority of the Emperor Himself...and I'm pretty sure the Emperor can judge a Chapter.

My understanding mostly aligns with Herichimo, but I would like citations supporting either side. This is relevant to my interests.

"The Crimson Fists' willingness to sanction their fellow Space Marines has earned them a reputation as the High Lords of Terra's lapdogs by the more unorthodox Chapters such as the Space Wolves , White Scars and the Exorcists ."

"The Soul Drinkers were a Renegade Chapter of Space Marines declared Excommunicate Traitoris by the Inquisition because of their extremely high levels of mutation and obvious corruption by Chaos , yet the Soul Drinkers still considered themselves to be loyal to the Emperor of Mankind , if not to His Imperium."

Alex

Do you have a cite for this stuff? What you're saying is pretty frequently contradicted by existing lore and novels. And in the current 40k edition (ridiculous as it is) the Chapters are under the Administratum. Even before that they were outside the normal chain of command but part of the Imperium. An Inquisitor acts with the authority of the Emperor Himself...and I'm pretty sure the Emperor can judge a Chapter.

Asking me to do a bunch of research, well you had best be patient as I had other things planned for today.

Nevertheless here are four (time to stop thinking I got stuff to do) examples straight off the top of my head.

Page 3 of Codex: Space Marines (3ed.)

A background piece identifies, in the form of a report to his clade, an Inquisitor asking for aid to quell a conspiracy to turn from the Imperium. A force of White Panthers, undeterminable size but likely a single company at best, answered. After the Inquisitor provided his evidence and gave the marines his plan of attack the White Panthers essentially thumbed their nose and proceeded to destroy the world's military and execute the govenor (who was the head of the corruption).

Notable quotes:

"They thanked me for bringing this heresy to their attention and proceeded to implement their own plan."

"But to a Space Marine, one of the Emperor's finest, there is never any excuse for such heresy, each man must owe loyalty to the Emperor before any other."

"... on many occasions Space Marines have pursued their own campaigns without reference or remit to the authority of the Adeptus Terra."

Page 56 Index Astartes II

Details Space Marine Chaplains and indicates without doubt the Astartes do not submit to the Imperial Cult.

Notable quotes:

"The Cults of the Space Marines were formed long before the Ecclesiarchy became a powerful force within the Imperium, and they hold to their beliefs stubbornly, disdaining the fanatical ravings of the Ministorum."

"To the Eccesiarchy, the Emperor is a god... ... The Space Marines revere the Emperor as a brilliant, inspired man, but a man nonetheless. This forms a major schism betwen the two organizations."

"An uneasy truce has developed between the Adeptus Astartes and the Ministorum, though occasional disputes shatter this wary peace."

Page 25 of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada

The entry of the Nova Class Frigate indicates heavily the seperate nature of Astartes chapters to the rest of the Imperium. It indicates several Imperial institutions desire the Nova, a dedicated lance boat, remian limited in Space Marine fleets to ensure a balance of power. It also implies these institutions have no official way of limiting the ships.

Notable quotes:

"Of all the vessels in the service of the Adeptus Astartes, the Nova... is commonly the single class to which the Imperial navy take [sic] the most exception."

"... the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets*, a trend the Imperial Navy, the Inquisition and other institutions perpetually concerned with the balance of power would dearly love to see continue."

*The Nova carries few marines and isn't usefull in planetary assault or boarding, being a dedicated gunboat, so Space Marines don't see much need for it.

Page 21 Battlefleet Gothic: Armada

Space Marine Battlebarges are fully equipped for exterminatus missions as matter of course (virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes). In fact they are built for it and it is easier for an Astartes battlebarge to carry out exterminatus than a standard ship. This provides a Space Marine chapter with the same "ultimate censure" an Inquisitor has. In fact many chapters have multiple Battlebarges. The authority to use the world destroying power most likely falls to the barge's captain, obviously a high ranking veteran marine officer. They don't need the permission of the Inquisition to destroy a planet, indicating at the least a level of authority equaling the Inquisition.

I'd suggest looking up the Badab War, & the Space Wolves vs the Thousand Sons home planet of Caliban. At the Chapter level, only Space Marines have the firepower to punish other Marines. Other groups might be involved (I think there was an Inquisitor coordinating the Badab war) but Marines will form the core. They do have obligations to the Imperium. Tithe of gene seed always. Tithe of resources if they control a planet or Sector. And Space Marines do not have a rep in the High Lords.

Overall, Marines strongly resemble the Mechanicus - not part of the Imperial cult (I think that's in Dark Heresy in some section talking about the Ecclesiarch) and mostly independent, and they police themselves. At their founding, a Chapter might be given a duty, but overall they do as they see fit. Still have interactions with the wider Imperium though. Either DH or RT mentioned the 'peers of the imperium' thing. Basically, at the highest levels you have Inquisitors, R Traders, Chapter Masters, etc, all with theoretically unlimited power in some area, and all with firepower to back it up. So, conflicts come down to politics, and sometimes who can get the most other peers with big guns on their side.

Some of the older lore I remember: A Space Marine was turned into a Rogue Trader & sent out there with a good chunk of a Chapter. When the Mechanicus come out with new/improved gear, there is a chapter that tests the stuff, and individual marines could earn a right of refusal if the gear is too crazy sounding. There is/was a chapter (Relictors?) that specializes in repurposing Chaos weapons.

Caution, good amount of tl;dr in use.

Additionally there are plenty of times Inquisitors have attempted to assert authority over Marines. Just look at the result of the first Armageddon war when an Inquisitor Lord and Ordo Malleus tried to bring the entire Space Wolves Chapter into line...and of course look how that ended up. Core thing is that Inquisition is technically higher in the grand scheme of things than marines but this is only a technicality and is seldom used. If you try asserting authority and pushing rosettes around then you're going to cause a political hellstorm.

Back to a plot though, Xeno weaponry is in use by the Imperium in a number of places and is perfectly fine to some, this is why you have Radical and Puritan Inquisitors, the former believing that there is a need to use the weapons of the enemy to defeat them. Some for example use Tesseract Labyrinths (Necron stuff) or the Officio Assassinorium use Hyperphase Swords (also Necron).

However back to the OP, Exotic Weapons, lets be clear is not necessarily Xeno weapons, more dark age stuff, really niche or some of the specialist stuff like Atomiser Cannons (RoB P137), Deathwatch Graviton Cannons (RoB P137), Techorcism Gun (RoB P138) and things like that. As you may have guessed RoB has a few of these Exotic Weapons. Note that none of those are named "Astartes" which means you don't have your blanket usage rights to them.

The benefit of the second half is that unlike other weapons types such as Weapons Training (SP), Weapons Training (Las), Astartes Weapon Training etc. Exotic weapons must be taken individually (see talent description, Core P117) whereby you would need "Exotic Weapons Training (Atomiser Cannon)" and then "Exotic Weapons Training (Techorcism Gun)". One power saves the need for lots of XP lost on talents you may not always use or a skill you use once. It allows flexibility.

Note: There are probably a few exotic melee examples too but I didn't go looking too deeply into it and used the ranged as as an example.

Ummm... I'm stretching things here a bit, but would the breaching augur or the bulkhead shears be considered exotic? Technically by RAW they're not, but they could be by RAI. The write-up for exotic weapon training in DW makes it pretty cut and dry:

"Weapons requiring this unique Talent are noted in their Armoury descriptions."

And neither is officially listed in the the armoury as exotic, but they're tools being used as improvised weapons (and clumsy ones at that). Excluding xenos weapons, there really aren't any exotic melee weapons in DW (at least none that I can find with a cursory search through my books).

Of course, if you've got access to the other games (especially RT) some interesting options open up...