Realistically what psy rating would Malcador the Sigillite, Magnus the Red and the Emperor have if stated in dark heresy?

Well, there's a Lord of Change and an Alpha level Psyker in the Ascension book that have Psy Ratings of 9 and 14 respectively. So I'd wager Magnus might have something around Psy Rating 20 or so? Emperor even higher than that. I don't even know if you could put the Emperor's "Psy Rating" into Dark Heresy without making it sound ridiculous.

It also comes down to interpretation, meaning how much of the "stories" you read about such famous character you take at face value, or whether one considers that maybe they'd actually have a lower rating, but are capable of artificially boosting it for greater power ... either with considerably powerful daemonic pacts (Magnus) or the sacrifice of a thousand psychic souls a day (Emperor).

In short: make something up that sounds right to you?

I would say that these people aren't on the scale as presented in the WH40kRP rules.

It is akin to asking for character stats for a Tyranid hive-ship. It's just not possible.

Malcador the Sigilite and Magnus the Red are both incredibly powerful, Magnus even moreso after becoming a Daemon Prince. If you absolutely have to stat them, I'd say anywhere between 20 to 40.

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?

He doesn't manifest it. He just directs the Astronomican.

Either way, the Emperor is one of the 'New Men', an evolved psyker. His gift is innate and supine, with no risk to warp exposure. Like Wyrds, who are also able to control a single power accurately, he has no rating.

Now the other two would probably be psy rating 10-15. One thing to remember is that psychic strength in the rpg is measured in psy rating, willpower, and technique mastery. These guys don't need 21+ psy rating. Their overall Intellect, willpower, Psy rating and psychic discipline mastery is measured up to meet these legendary figures.

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?

He doesn't manifest it. He just directs the Astronomican.

[...]

When did that change? Not too long ago (could be a couple of years since I last read up on the Astronomican), he definitely projected the Light of the Astronomican, I even saw discussions on how that'd work during the Great Crusade, if he just took the Light with him as he travelled or what.

I looked it up on Lexicanum when I read your message, and saw that basically the whole fluff around the Astronomican has turned into condensed dumb.

• Apparently it was now constructed in m30. At that point, where did the God-Emperor even find 10 000 psykers, let alone replenish the ~100 (which is a lot lower than it used to be) lost daily?
• If only those that are turned into Acolytes by the AAT count - and out of those, only those that achieve a "mystic state", becoming Chosen - how can there possibly be enough psykers in the galaxy? Previously, mass amounts of low-grade or dangerous psykers were forced to serve in the Choir of the Astronomican, essentially press-ganged. Now it's special snowflakes amongst special snowflakes that achieve a chosen position amongst the chosen of those recruited by the AAT.
• fgsdsfgmnasdkjkalksndaåsdpoi
• This is the 6th Ed. Codex and the Horus Heresy abortion of a book's fault, isn't it?

I'm going to stick to the non-stupid, Emperor-projected, rogue psyker-eating Astronomican, I think.

When did that change? Not too long ago (could be a couple of years since I last read up on the Astronomican), he definitely projected the Light of the Astronomican, I even saw discussions on how that'd work during the Great Crusade, if he just took the Light with him as he travelled or what.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the citations are accurate on the Lexicanum. Starting from 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000, the Astronomican has always been manifested by the Adeptus Astronomica. Page 140 if your interested, or I can send you a screen shot later if you'd like.

The confusion with the Astronomican is that the Emperor always 'guided' it. Lots of folks took that to meaning he originated it, but it was never that.

• Apparently it was now constructed in m30. At that point, where did the God-Emperor even find 10 000 psykers, let alone replenish the ~100 (which is a lot lower than it used to be) lost daily?
• If only those that are turned into Acolytes by the AAT count - and out of those, only those that achieve a "mystic state", becoming Chosen - how can there possibly be enough psykers in the galaxy? Previously, mass amounts of low-grade or dangerous psykers were forced to serve in the Choir of the Astronomican, essentially press-ganged. Now it's special snowflakes amongst special snowflakes that achieve a chosen position amongst the chosen of those recruited by the AAT.
• fgsdsfgmnasdkjkalksndaåsdpoi
• This is the 6th Ed. Codex and the Horus Heresy abortion of a book's fault, isn't it?

I'm going to stick to the non-stupid, Emperor-projected, rogue psyker-eating Astronomican, I think.

While I can't comment on the timing of the formation of the Astronomica in m30, the ten-thousand strong corp of psykers maintaining the Astronomica has been established from 1st edition. In this book as well is the establishment that the chosen shave their heads in preperation of their implants. Note that while the Astronomicon takes up to 100 lives a day, the members that comprise it's chorus last for days, weeks and months at at time. Lastly, the Astronomica is comprised of a vast, vast body of young supplicants to provide future generations of chosen.

Now I don't want to nay-say your opinion, but i do have to point out - This is no 6th edition chicanery or horus heresy redux. This is how it's always been. =D

Edit:

Also, do remember the great majority of sacrifices of lesser psykers goes to fueling the Golden Throne. You might be mixing those two up.

I'd argue they probably would need relatively high Psy Ratings too. In one of the Horus Heresy novels (forgotten which one it's been awhile), the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.

Well that's the issue, isn't it? You can likely measure the power in mechanical terms with Psy Rating, but at that point, why would you? It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.

Didn't the Emperor once summon a Warp Storm that raged across an entire sector? I actually don't think creating a supernova-level blast of power would have been beyond a psyker of his caliber, so I don't actually think that was hyperbole in that instance. He IS the God Emperor, who can fight equally with all four Chaos Gods at once.

Major point being, you could have a WPB in Dark Heresy of 50, and you still probably wouldn't be able to do 1/10th of what guys like Magnus or the Emperor could do, if said individual only had a Psy Rating of 8.

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.

Didn't the Emperor once summon a Warp Storm that raged across an entire sector? I actually don't think creating a supernova-level blast of power would have been beyond a psyker of his caliber, so I don't actually think that was hyperbole in that instance. He IS the God Emperor, who can fight equally with all four Chaos Gods at once.

Major point being, you could have a WPB in Dark Heresy of 50, and you still probably wouldn't be able to do 1/10th of what guys like Magnus or the Emperor could do, if said individual only had a Psy Rating of 8.

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P

As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

And let's just say that some of the source material, depending on where you look, may be worlds apart in its portrayal of said combat abilities.

Not sure where you were going with that example Lynata. =P

That's one of the examples that demonstrates the Emperor's distinct non-use of combat psychic powers, preferring instead more martial disciplines. This trend continues with the Emperor's fight against Gharkul Blackfang where he decapitated the great warboss at the spearhead of a host of custodians.

All in all, as we gain more ensight into the Emperor, and more material on him, he is progressively becoming clear as a psyker focused heavily on Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis. His preference for martial combat and immortility coupled with his technological powers (Mechanicum prologue), paint him to be a very impressive psyker, but no where near the ludicrous claims most fans attribute him (his greatest use of his powers being the aforementioned directing of the Astronomican).

Not sure where you were going with that example Lynata. =P That's one of the examples that demonstrates the Emperor's distinct non-use of combat psychic powers, preferring instead more martial disciplines.

It's an example of both a Primarch and the Emperor being vulnerable (gasp!) against such "mundane" threats as a random infantryman's plasmagun and a big Ork, and I believe it clashes with the portrayal of these archetypical Gods of War that just stride over the battlefield, flipping Titans and generally not giving a feth about anything save other Primarchs.

Or at least I've always seen a ton of people going "wtf" whenever I mention this little gem from GW's own fluff, simply because they'd never have considered something like that possible as they are used to a much more "high-powered" portrayal.

It's details like these that make it so invaluable to scan through those ancient issues of White Dwarf. Just a few hours ago I talked to someone who was convinced the Primarchs were thrown onto their homeworlds unprotected, simply because all the legends were always talking about "falling stars" and what have you. Turns out that Index Astartes specifically mentions shielded stasis pods, as well as the fact that the native people just like to make a lot of gak up, yet a lot of fans either aren't aware of these details or failed to read between the lines, not even getting sceptical when the source talks about stuff like Ferrus Manus carrying an entire mountain over the ocean. GW = Masterful Trolls.

tl;dr: I'm under the impression that a lot of fans - including some Horus Heresy novel authors - are operating under the impression that myth and legend = truth, regardless of how many times Games Workshop prints a "don't believe everything you hear" disclaimer into their books (like they did in the 6E core rulebook, interestingly on the page about Primarchs).

And in this light, I don't have a particularly big problem with assuming that Magnus or even the Emperor aren't that much above other psykers. In fact, the more powerful and epic something comes across, the more sceptical I get ...

This is very much influenced by a personal preference for a more "down to earth" version of 40k, though, so I guess I'm just reading different things out of the same material. Ultimately, it's up to the individual gamer/reader/fan. But it is important to at least know that there are lots of possibilities!

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

It's mentioned the blast was "as thin as a pencil" implying it was focused and controlled, rather than a straight up supernova explosion.

As for sources on the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, it's mentioned in the 5th Edition

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P

“ [The Emperor] gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun . ” (White Dwarf #131, in reference to his battle with Horus).

Other fun quotes from that same battle:

"Desperately, the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual and psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightening claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed. " (White Dwarf #131).

Emphasis my own.

On the note of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, while I've struggled to find a direct citation there are numerous second-hand sources (notably Lexicanum) that state that it is widely believed by the Imperium that the Storm was created by the Emperor himself.

There's also the fact that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the Void Dragon and imprisoned it in Mars. And given the Void Dragon was the most powerful of the Ctan which... you know. Were beings that ate stars, I don't think it's necessarily hyperbole that he could accomplish these feats of such significant power. Hell, as of their 5th Edition Codex, Necrons can blow up Stars themselves. And heck they have the Tachyon Arrow-- an infantry weapon that can punch through a mountain (or so the 5th Edition Codex says).

As for the "the supernova would kill the caster" it's noted that the Emperor kept the blast focused and controlled. It was not a raging explosion, it was a controlled and focused beam of power. And given that there have been later sources that suggest Horus was literally being possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at that time, empowering him? I can believe the Emperor was that powerful. I certainly can't see anything less than that being able to drive back the combined might of all four Chaos Gods.

----

And yes, as Lynata said, perhaps this is colored by our own preference to how we like to see 40k. In my case? I like to see it in this light. A realm in which mortals are less than ants-- playthings of powers they can barely comprehend, and would die in an instant, should such beings so much as turn a glance in their direction. A sci-fi verse that is so grimdark, and committed to this, that it is straight up over the top.

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

It's mentioned the blast was "as thin as a pencil" implying it was focused and controlled, rather than a straight up supernova explosion.

As for sources on the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, it's mentioned in the 5th Edition

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P

“ [The Emperor] gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun . ” (White Dwarf #131, in reference to his battle with Horus).

Other fun quotes from that same battle:

"Desperately, the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual and psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightening claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed. " (White Dwarf #131).

Emphasis my own.

On the note of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, while I've struggled to find a direct citation there are numerous second-hand sources (notably Lexicanum) that state that it is widely believed by the Imperium that the Storm was created by the Emperor himself.

There's also the fact that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the Void Dragon and imprisoned it in Mars. And given the Void Dragon was the most powerful of the Ctan which... you know. Were beings that ate stars, I don't think it's necessarily hyperbole that he could accomplish these feats of such significant power. Hell, as of their 5th Edition Codex, Necrons can blow up Stars themselves. And heck they have the Tachyon Arrow-- an infantry weapon that can punch through a mountain (or so the 5th Edition Codex says).

As for the "the supernova would kill the caster" it's noted that the Emperor kept the blast focused and controlled. It was not a raging explosion, it was a controlled and focused beam of power. And given that there have been later sources that suggest Horus was literally being possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at that time, empowering him? I can believe the Emperor was that powerful. I certainly can't see anything less than that being able to drive back the combined might of all four Chaos Gods.

----

And yes, as Lynata said, perhaps this is colored by our own preference to how we like to see 40k. In my case? I like to see it in this light. A realm in which mortals are less than ants-- playthings of powers they can barely comprehend, and would die in an instant, should such beings so much as turn a glance in their direction. A sci-fi verse that is so grimdark, and committed to this, that it is straight up over the top.

Well if that's true i can take the 10 octillion megatons of tnt from a super nova, convert it into watts then divided it by the estimated wattage of a laz gun(20 megawatts). Then take that number multiple it by the damage stats of a Dark heresy laz gun. Next using the Bio-lightning ability keep adding willpower bones till i get a similar figure. sound good?

5,811,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 laz gun shots averaging out at 8 damage would translate to a will power bones of 4,648,880,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 so in other words a metric **** ton!

"... more destructive than an exploding sun." and "Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed" are clearly fluffy flourish and embellishment on part of the writer or person speaking. I sincerely doubt it's meant to be serious at all.

That being said, while I agree with Lynata above in most parts - in particular that while incredibly powerful, these beings are definitely (mostly) mortal and can be killed by a well-placed plasma shot, each with the proverbial Achilles heel - the God-Emperor and the Primarchs are clearly incredibly powerful, to the point where I maintain that tracking or discerning their Psy Rating is a futile attempt.

Even if there's just a kernel of truth, there is no doubt that the Emperor is the strongest human(-ish) psyker to ever live, and there's psykers capable of scorching planets in warpfire, opening portals through the warp to travel cross-planet (or more), and the stories speak of the presence of the God-Emperor projecting his presence and stature through the warp, making people bow before him before he even touches the ground of the planet.

If anyone is going to use these beings in the games, why even bother rolling, why even bother statting them? Having some sketched-up powers is good as a GM, but at these levels, they system itself completely break down. It doesn't matter if the Psy Rating is 40 or 4000.

I know it's hyperbole I manly just did the numbers for ***** and giggles.

“ [The Emperor] gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun . ” (White Dwarf #131, in reference to his battle with Horus).

Other fun quotes from that same battle:

"Desperately, the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual and psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightening claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed. " (White Dwarf #131).

Emphasis my own.

Which is hyperbole, and describing the physical fight between the two.

On the note of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, while I've struggled to find a direct citation there are numerous second-hand sources (notably Lexicanum) that state that it is widely believed by the Imperium that the Storm was created by the Emperor himself.

It might be true the Imperial citizens believe the Storm of the Emperor's Wraith to be created by the Emperor. It's also true they believe technological progress can be a heresy, and praying to the machine spirit of a rifle. Just believing something in-universe does not equate to factual truth. (although, due to the warp, some times it can. XD )

There's also the fact that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the Void Dragon and imprisoned it in Mars. And given the Void Dragon was the most powerful of the Ctan which... you know. Were beings that ate stars, I don't think it's necessarily hyperbole that he could accomplish these feats of such significant power. Hell, as of their 5th Edition Codex, Necrons can blow up Stars themselves. And heck they have the Tachyon Arrow-- an infantry weapon that can punch through a mountain (or so the 5th Edition Codex says).

The only mention of this is in the novel Mechanicum, from an unreliable narrator. Vis-a-vis it might have happened, but it probably didn't since there was no possible way for the Emperor to seal the void dragon on mars when Earth was still in technology infancy and no one had achieved the capability of leaving it's atmosphere during the time of Saint George. =P

As far as Necron's blowing up stars, now that is apples and oranges. Please leave technological examples at the door in this petty arguement of psychic magic and doodads. =P

And yes, as Lynata said, perhaps this is colored by our own preference to how we like to see 40k. In my case? I like to see it in this light. A realm in which mortals are less than ants-- playthings of powers they can barely comprehend, and would die in an instant, should such beings so much as turn a glance in their direction. A sci-fi verse that is so grimdark, and committed to this, that it is straight up over the top.

True. We do see it in our preferences on the minutiae of details such as this. However, I do want to clarify one thing - I don't believe the Emperor was some psychic chump or anything. I just can't jump on the bandwagon that the Emperor was capable of destroying planets on a whim or focusing the power of a supernova when the only examples we have of his combat abillities are clearly using hyperbole to otherwise describe a very monumentous fight.

As for the "the supernova would kill the caster" it's noted that the Emperor kept the blast focused and controlled. It was not a raging explosion, it was a controlled and focused beam of power. And given that there have been later sources that suggest Horus was literally being possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at that time, empowering him? I can believe the Emperor was that powerful. I certainly can't see anything less than that being able to drive back the combined might of all four Chaos Gods.

Luthor was possessed by the four Chaos Gods as well, and in a battle that aped the fight between Horus and the Emperor occured between Lion El'Johnsen and Luthor for the fate of Caliban and the Dark Angels. The Emperor is certainly powerful, and has grown much more since his deification in the millennium to follow.

Well if that's true i can take the 10 octillion megatons of tnt from a super nova, convert it into watts then divided it by the estimated wattage of a laz gun(20 megawatts). Then take that number multiple it by the damage stats of a Dark heresy laz gun. Next using the Bio-lightning ability keep adding willpower bones till i get a similar figure. sound good?

That sounds fine. But in this context, how does that relate to psy rating? =P With your approach, I could have psy rating 1 and a super higher unnat willpower stat to pull that off - which goes right back to my initial posts about psy rating not being sufficient to capture the Emperor. ^^.

me ftw.

The only mention of this is in the novel Mechanicum, from an unreliable narrator. Vis-a-vis it might have happened, but it probably didn't since there was no possible way for the Emperor to seal the void dragon on mars when Earth was still in technology infancy and no one had achieved the capability of leaving it's atmosphere during the time of Saint George. =P

As far as Necron's blowing up stars, now that is apples and oranges. Please leave technological examples at the door in this petty arguement of psychic magic and doodads. =P

Death Watch page.194 The Gate of Infinity. Coincidentally this gives me an opportunity to measure his psy rating which would be five 5 million to pull that off.