Mal Reynolds said:

Well Mal, it isnt perfect, there is great room for improvement and betterment. But there are many many things that are so grand with the system and game, that I can play it just as it is. In my time of playing RPGs I have seen many systems, some fantastic, some horrible. DH has a unique position of overall being one of the best, but the clunky career system just distracts me for character generation and advancement.

Now there were massive improvements for the career/rank system in The Inquisitor's Handbook with background packages, Alternate Career Ranks and Elite Advance Packages. And that was taken a step further with Tattered Fates and its Adventure Specific Elite Advance Packages, which answers my primary concern for the career system as it is.

After an adventure or two with an inquisitor in the inquisition doing inquisitive things, characters would change and evolve to more suit that package of progression, not just continue to buy "career" defined and limited skills and talents. A guardsman who faces a xeno beast a few times just might pick up the Forbidden Lore: Xeno skill, even if only as a "basic" skill availability. And yes "Elite Advances" respond to this issue, but they are so undefined and random that it only partly solves the problem and basically becomes a GM's Fiat or Fnord. Not a game mechanic.

And if that is going to be the solution, then the whole basic career system is flawed enough that I can just look at the Rank One chart for Guardsman then look at my GM and say "But I want Chainsword now?!?" and right then and there, under elite advances, the GM can say "Sure, it will cost you 200XP, all your starting money, 1 fate point and -3 to your fellowship" with the fate point and fellowship loss being defined as a result of a chain sword training "accident".

Sure most players wont go to that level or fee at starting ranks, but it is there, as an undefined option.

So Starting Backgrounds took that to the next level, charging XP and Characteristic/Insanity/Corruption penalties to a character in exchange for a few skills, talents and access to some advance skills and basic skills. Which was cool, and broadened the playing field for character generation. Now take it a step further with some of the Rank 1 Alternate Career Ranks and you can have some diverse, independent and unique starting characters.

But the freeform design is still missing. But obviously a formula exists for creating the Starting Background Packages, or the designers are just pulling the packages out of their heinies and are not balancing them or anything, except through perhaps play test. But a formula must exist, as if you look at the Background Packages and divide the cost by 100 and then ass 1 per each drawback/penalty for the "kit" you get approximately the number of bonus skills, talents or characteristic improvements.

The career system provides a simple, decent and yet disorganized start for the game, one that works just fine and can support the core skeleton of the system for years before being revised. Heck in my time Ive even designed a few new careers (yay Commissars). The starting packages are fine and so are the ranks themselves, in general.

Personally I would implement the formula for the Background Packages into the core rules, or at least publish it as a free PDF for GMs/players to use themselves. Then I would allows "drawbacks" to be taken that grant additional XP for character generation/advancement. These can range from characteristic penalties, starting insanity points/corruption points, reduced movement, reduced fate points, and many other examples we have seen in Role Playing games across the ages (DC Heroes, HERO System, Savage Worlds, GURPS and so forth).

Then I would apply the simple rules for "career" jumping from Warhammer Fantasy, but instead call it "Rank" Jumping. At anytime before expending 500XP a Conscript (rank 1 Guardsman) could "Rank" jump to Guard (Rank 2) for a fee of 200XP. After expending 500XP they can make that jump for a mer 100XP (or even 50). Thus you could explain how some people advance in rank fast, and while they dont know much about what their job really is they have greater access to variety and why some pleple seem to never advance and yet are masters of their fields.

Now with all these ideas in place (and they are rough and not worked out or anything) I would still not let starting characters take more then perhaps 600-1000 XP in drawbacks (pre-existing background pacakges would not count their drawback XP in these ones), allowing starting characters to begin upwards to 2/3rds the way done with Rank 3.

Course they would still be restricted to starting equipment, which can still hurt. But it would explain some things, like why Sergeants with 2,999XP still use a simple Lasgun and flak armour on a regular basis across the Imperium.

Course, if you implement drawbacks, might as well implement advantages!

Peacekeeper_b said:

thank you for the illuminating and enlightenening answer, although a bit extensive. I`ve read it twice to try to better understand the meaning of the context.

and may I say well formulated arguments!

As I understand it the rulebook Dark Heresy, don`t offer enough varities for playercharacters, and this flaw is obvious enough once you start to advance through the careerpath. I can see that is true.

But additional books in DH game, offered much improved rules and mechanics to deal with this problem, according to you. This is fine, I like the varities and freedom of choice once you have learned how to survive a modul or two.

For instance many veterans of ww2, changed their flawed firerarms with the one looted on the battlefields, and quickly became quite adept with the new firearm of preferance.

This, I have no problem with.

Its the freeform design I have problems with.

I am sure the designers have a sort of formula (possible stuck up somewhere in their heinies ,- its where they like to keep them), and it should be released for gamemasters ONLY, to work on their own career paths and so.

But the BIG problem with a Freeform Design for players to create their characters, is just that it can off-balance the game mechanics as they are. Its like a cake where each layer is new rules and mechanics to deal with the freeform design, where each layer builds up. In the end a smart player only takes the topping (which have the best parts) and leave the cake bottom all alone. You see what I am trying to say,- while wanting a cake, - is that for new talents, special abilities and rules to be interesting for new varities of putting your character togheter, they have to be slighly better than the previous game mechanics. if not why buy the supplement?

I`ve seen it over and over again in roleplaying games, where each supplement tries to overbid the previous, Like D&D3, in the end you could find a Paladin doing practically anything with his Lay on Hands ability, from smithing enemies, to fly , to use psionic abilities. maybe an overstatement.

But you can`t deny the possiblity is there. I prefer to put limitations on my players so they don`t warp the game, instead of giving them endless freedom to twirk and bend the rules, just to maximise their character.

And where is the realism in that?. in every real life career, there is some boring and uncool things you just have to learn in order to do your job.

But if the players can just pick their talents and skill with no regard to profession, even at higher cost. They will do that if it makes their character tougher, more cool etc.

I Shudder at the thought of giving my players the ability to design their own Career and paths.

Well, it is no secret I am not a big fan of the career/rank system. I say it everyday afterall. But the revisions I seek to design (now that a dialogue has been opened and Ive seen a few possible pathways here) would not alter the game as is that much at all. In fact, if done properly it could be added in two pages of text in the Dark Heresy core rules, and if condensed, perhaps even one. (though I believe the standard print practices work in page sets of 4 or 8.

In fact, done properly you could add "Rank Jump" as a rule to the game as a side bar on page 43 of DH Core Rules and replace the picture there with said side bar.

The point is, I like some of the improvements they have added (packages, elites, alternate ranks), but see alternatives that could be added to the game to help create characters a player may want to play instead of just being stuck with what there already is.

After all, in over a year of play, Ive only seen on type of Feral Guardsman Rank 1.+5 WS, +5 S, Sound Constitution (x2).

Other alternatives is a Dark Heresy Career Compendium that holds all the careers already in the game (8 or 9 if Im correct), houses all the current alternate ranks, homeworlds of Origin and packages and includes many new ones. 4 or 5 per career at least, with a peference of at least 1 or 2 of them being available at rank 1, and so forth.

But the drawback/advantage system could work, maybe with a 600XP limit (equal to start of Rank 3?).

But as is, the Dark Heresy system does work, does make a complete system, is familiar enough as a system (level and class) that people from other game backgounds can follow it easily enough and the system will hold the game in place and work for years to come. But as I said, it could be better.

I wouldnt want to add any rules that would make anything in any of the 7 current books or in the 4 proposed releases obsolete or redundant. A simple add that allows everything in play to remain, but opens up the options a tad bit for starting characters.