Also max out his perception attribute, and wielding an accurate weapon with red-dot he could easily archive 110% base chance to hit

How does this sentence fit together?

It seems to suggest that you use Perception for shooting, which is certainly not RAW.

Seek the Path navigator power from The Navis Primer...

Also max out his perception attribute, and wielding an accurate weapon with red-dot he could easily archive 110% base chance to hit

How does this sentence fit together?

It seems to suggest that you use Perception for shooting, which is certainly not RAW.

Seek the Path navigator power from The Navis Primer...

Ah.

Indeed.

And spend yet another round (well, half action) to line up that kill shot.

As well as wasting another power on something with so little pay-off, compared to ship scale powers.

Your milage may vary ofcourse, but for my money, it's not worth it.

Plus it's not as good as The Course Untraveled still.

Alex

I think if you want to make a Navigator who is also a sniper there is no reason not too! That sounds like a fun character to play actually. It isn't necessarily the "best" thing to do as far as maximizing what your character can do, but the roleplaying aspects are cool. And you should have the freedom to pursue the stats that make that character more interesting! I say go for it...but there are other powers that may be more useful for a sniper...

What I am more interested in currently is how people interpret "Held in my Gaze".

At one point it says "locks a creature in place", suggesting immobile... And yet a way such a creature can escape the gaze is moving out of range or LoS...

And yet it also states that the "lock" only affects psychic powers and daemonic presence. The second trait is a passive that is always on anyway, so no idea what the hell they mean by that...

And also the very effectiveness of the power comes into question when most daemons are known for their "rip you limb from limb" mentality over having a scary mental arsenal. And of those that have a scary mental arsenal, few are incompetent in the physical violence department anyway. That is unless this power actually locks a deamon in place, making it unable to act at all.

Against roughly "human" psykers its still awesome since it cripples them... but then again so does a bolt shell.

What I am more interested in currently is how people interpret "Held in my Gaze".

At one point it says "locks a creature in place", suggesting immobile... And yet a way such a creature can escape the gaze is moving out of range or LoS...

And yet it also states that the "lock" only affects psychic powers and daemonic presence. The second trait is a passive that is always on anyway, so no idea what the hell they mean by that...

And also the very effectiveness of the power comes into question when most daemons are known for their "rip you limb from limb" mentality over having a scary mental arsenal. And of those that have a scary mental arsenal, few are incompetent in the physical violence department anyway. That is unless this power actually locks a deamon in place, making it unable to act at all.

Against roughly "human" psykers its still awesome since it cripples them... but then again so does a bolt shell.

The greatest ruling that I ever had to make for my players is that Held in my Gaze neither Holds people, nor is it a Gaze attack as defined by Lidless Stare.

Anyway you're correct, there's nothing stopping a Bloodthirster from being just as Bloodthirstery at tearing people apart, however if it is held in place (perhaps by a helpful TK Astropath) or just cannot deal damage then Warp Instability is almost certainly going to insta-kill it.

Also a bolt shell is super ineffective against your average TK-Astropath, unless its psychic defenses suddenly stopped working of course...

What I am more interested in currently is how people interpret "Held in my Gaze".

At one point it says "locks a creature in place", suggesting immobile... And yet a way such a creature can escape the gaze is moving out of range or LoS...

And yet it also states that the "lock" only affects psychic powers and daemonic presence. The second trait is a passive that is always on anyway, so no idea what the hell they mean by that...

And also the very effectiveness of the power comes into question when most daemons are known for their "rip you limb from limb" mentality over having a scary mental arsenal. And of those that have a scary mental arsenal, few are incompetent in the physical violence department anyway. That is unless this power actually locks a deamon in place, making it unable to act at all.

Against roughly "human" psykers its still awesome since it cripples them... but then again so does a bolt shell.

The greatest ruling that I ever had to make for my players is that Held in my Gaze neither Holds people, nor is it a Gaze attack as defined by Lidless Stare.

Anyway you're correct, there's nothing stopping a Bloodthirster from being just as Bloodthirstery at tearing people apart, however if it is held in place (perhaps by a helpful TK Astropath) or just cannot deal damage then Warp Instability is almost certainly going to insta-kill it.

Also a bolt shell is super ineffective against your average TK-Astropath, unless its psychic defenses suddenly stopped working of course...

Well, nowhere does it say it functions like Lidless Stare, unlike say Scourge of the Red Tide which should not function like Lidless Stare on account of it affects things which does not have eyes.

But Held in my Gaze is then practically useless against daemons. Since most daemons are threatening enough in the "rip you limb from limb" department as they are in psychic might if not more so. And good luck in holding a WP 70+ with Wounds in the near 200s and a massive strength/toughness with any TK Astropath for so long they actually get banished by Warp Instability, even boosted by Held in my Gaze. Especially with Daemonic Presence still being a factor as it is a passive ability that is always on and therefor not at all affected by Held in my Gaze.

It still has some limited function against psykers... but nothing other powers cant do just as well, for example Lidless Stare... or a Heavy Bolter, or two... or a Null Rod... or a Pariah...

The mutations all seem pretty good, why wouldn't you want to get them all?

Get Blooated Form too avoid the two bad ones, and then you just don't want 81-85 and 66-70, everything else is good.

There's only 13 results there, and if you're Renegade you start with 2.

To keep your humanity maybe?

Yeah, I won't go off on my expose about how Navigators SHOULD embrace their mutations, at least culturally, and their players shouldn't, for the most part, just strive to dodge them, but there is something to be said for being able to join your party when they go to a big Calixis shindig, or encountering a new population of humans, and NOT make them scream, pass out, or burn you. You, and your fellow players, might have a wider acceptance of "different", but you are the exception, in a galaxy filled with "BURN THE MUTANT! SUFFER NOT THE MUTANT TO LIVE!" Some are mechanically nice, of course, and some are crap, but good for story, as you come to terms with what makes you a Navigator, but they aren't really pokemon, or Space STDs; you don't "gotta catch'em all!"

Two thrones on the subject, anyway.

This just adds to my belief that Navigators should not be PCs. Its the general consenus among the others in my player group as well, they are just too specialized and valuable to risk traipsing around like common noble.

Yeah, I won't go off on my expose about how Navigators SHOULD embrace their mutations, at least culturally, and their players shouldn't, for the most part, just strive to dodge them, but there is something to be said for being able to join your party when they go to a big Calixis shindig, or encountering a new population of humans, and NOT make them scream, pass out, or burn you. You, and your fellow players, might have a wider acceptance of "different", but you are the exception, in a galaxy filled with "BURN THE MUTANT! SUFFER NOT THE MUTANT TO LIVE!" Some are mechanically nice, of course, and some are crap, but good for story, as you come to terms with what makes you a Navigator, but they aren't really pokemon, or Space STDs; you don't "gotta catch'em all!"

Two thrones on the subject, anyway.

Well, it seems to me that the vast majority of the mutations for Navigator's are far less horrifying than actually having a third eye right in the middle of your forehead. Even inhuman visage seems less problematic than growing a third eye!

This just adds to my belief that Navigators should not be PCs. Its the general consenus among the others in my player group as well, they are just too specialized and valuable to risk traipsing around like common noble.

Well yeah, it does seem kind of awkward to be part of an away team as a Navigator, but there's tons of cool Navigator stuff, and if you're traversing the warp not having a navigator means you're leaving it entirely up to your crew.

I loved playing my navis. The campaign in which he featured is sadly 'in highly suspended animation' but he was one of my best characters: doomed to face the most terrible darkness in the greater service of mankind and nearly certain that in the end he would end up shunned by his fellow humans. As such, he tried to stay untouched as long as possible, because he dreaded the moment when he would no longer be able to sample the pleasures of normal humans. I dare even say that it made him the most humane character of the party. Where the rest had no qualms in setting a flight deck on fire to 'solve' a problem with loyal household servants who just might have seen to much, he defended his people to the hilt. So where I agree that Navis Nobilite will accept the inevitability of mutations, I do not see why they would not strive to avoid them.

A far greater problem was exposing my navis to adventures, as SKoNi pointed out. Intrigue and social play are obviously not the problem. You can revel in those as a scion of the Major Houses. But stomping around on unknown planets filled with who knows what dangers? You can plead curiosity, boredom, the need of your special skills. But in the end I found it difficult to continue to come up with good enough reasons. Why would my civilized noble with a highly developed sense of duty and a keen knowledge of his own vital role on the ship risk himself in such expeditions?

Still, I loved playing him.

Yeah, I won't go off on my expose about how Navigators SHOULD embrace their mutations, at least culturally, and their players shouldn't, for the most part, just strive to dodge them, but there is something to be said for being able to join your party when they go to a big Calixis shindig, or encountering a new population of humans, and NOT make them scream, pass out, or burn you. You, and your fellow players, might have a wider acceptance of "different", but you are the exception, in a galaxy filled with "BURN THE MUTANT! SUFFER NOT THE MUTANT TO LIVE!" Some are mechanically nice, of course, and some are crap, but good for story, as you come to terms with what makes you a Navigator, but they aren't really pokemon, or Space STDs; you don't "gotta catch'em all!"

Two thrones on the subject, anyway.

Well, it seems to me that the vast majority of the mutations for Navigator's are far less horrifying than actually having a third eye right in the middle of your forehead. Even inhuman visage seems less problematic than growing a third eye!

This just adds to my belief that Navigators should not be PCs. Its the general consenus among the others in my player group as well, they are just too specialized and valuable to risk traipsing around like common noble.

Well yeah, it does seem kind of awkward to be part of an away team as a Navigator, but there's tons of cool Navigator stuff, and if you're traversing the warp not having a navigator means you're leaving it entirely up to your crew.

Yeah, if you don't have a player navigator, you probably should be stuck with the crew rating for tests, regarding warp travel, and at that point, it might not matter if you are using the core book, or Navis (suicide) Primer. If you DO have the PC, it seems rather unfair for the player to be punished, and sequestered aboard the ship, while the rest go do the fun stuff. I haven't really done the crunch-work, but I'm not entirely certain Navigators are that much more fragile than any other non-Explorator cyborg. I seem to recall that their Toughness purchases aren't the best, on account of their mutations (that they're supposed to get, over time) are attached to it, and it would be unfair to give them said mechanic, but only a little, but their Toughness wasn't so terrible (I think that was actually the RT's other job, if my memory is any good; the one who needs to be at risk of dying?), so I don't see why they'd drop like flies. Also, since the game sort of doesn't give you the wizard-analogue psyker, and the Astropath is a bit specialized, the navigator can fill in that niche, at least a bit. They also have the same access to ridiculous funds, so any life-extending gear is as easily theirs, as anyone's, and you might even have the extra reason to protect them.

As for the third eye, while it certainly is a daunting thing to see, and possibly to hide, it's closed, most of the time, and headgear can do wonders. I've built a Navigator for story purposes, Asteira Volaris, and she wears a rather fancy circlet/crown like ornament, on her forehead. It has little nerve sensors in it that sense the contractions of muscles, and can open an iris in it to expose the eye; otherwise, it's a fancy accessory, and it, along with her expertly coiffed hair, hide her warp eye easily. I've also rather extensively played a Salubri, in Vampire: the Masquerade. They have a similar "physical deformity", and I never really found it too hard to hide, either; didn't even need to wear hats, turbans, bandannas, or much like that. Some vampires have some pretty acute senses, too. All I'm trying to babble is that, as mutations go, the eye isn't, necessarily, that hard to conceal, if you actually want to, where as Withered, Bloated, Elongated, or Pale and Hairless all seem like they could be very hard to hide, as they afflict the entire body. As an example, Asteira is BEAUTIFUL, with only the Claws (she wears noble-quality, padded gloves, AT ALL TIMES), and Strange Vitality marking her as "strange", but her father, Daedalus, looks like Edric, the Guild Navigator, from the Sci-Fi Channel movie Children of Dune (sadly, I am not always creative, but 40k ripped them off, first; I just ripped them off further). Lastly, Navigators sort of occupy the rare position of being mutants who can flaunt it, and walk away, sometimes. Many of them embrace their mutations, and only hide it if it is necessary, or goal-oriented-advantageous.

This just adds to my belief that Navigators should not be PCs. Its the general consenus among the others in my player group as well, they are just too specialized and valuable to risk traipsing around like common noble.

Not to start a post-fight, but I get a little sad at this sort of statement, each time I see it; it might be someone on the OW forums, bellowing about how Psykers, especially, and often any of the non-grunts, have no business being playable, whether because they undermine the value of the "typical Guardsman", with their powers, better gear, or what you, or because the team is obviously a regular rank group of Guardsmen, and those don't receive specialists. In RT, it often seems to be the Navigator, and the Astropath.

Now, please note I'm not saying your reasoning is the same, but it always seems to pop up in these games, like in D&D, it's fine to be a wizard, or a cleric, or a fighter, but in these games, whole areas of the populace should not be allowed to be played. By some of that logic, I can see why the Rogue Trader, themselves, shouldn't really be playable; their life is, in some ways, the singly most important, as it allows the rest to do what they are doing, yet (s)he is going to go down, into the ruin, and snoop around. As for the Navigator, I certainly see where many people could say "and why is that coming with us?" Navigators are strange to the people who see their kind, as an occupational requirement, and primitive people could freak out for any number of reasons. They also serve a critical function for the ship, allowing it to travel the warp, and thus the galaxy, in an amount of time that makes exploration, and profiting, feasible. Still, many of them are "nobles", the same as any other child of a rich person who controls an industry, and I can imagine many of them wanting to do the same thrill-seeking, adventuring many such fools are known for. If you are going to draw a chart to a place, and claim that place is actually worth, it, you might also need to have seen it with your own eyes. Also, I assume there is usually more than one on a ship (it's been a discussion; your mileage may vary).