(Sorry, couldn't restist stealing/borrowing the topic from a mansions post.)

First of all. I really love this game, it has so much potential and is an absolute joy to play. But some of the rumors are just evil. Basically they just make you loose the game. They give you no chance or time to finsh them.

With Shub-Niggurath one mystery+a specific rumor requires you to spend 16(!) clues to solve them. And then you have to solve two additional mysteries. Its just not possible to do in 12 turns. I like a challenge as much as anyone else. I love Arkham Horror and all its randomness. I have no problems loosing most of the games I play. But i absolutley HATE having to lose a game because i drew the wrong card halfway into the game.

Now, I know I'm not alone in thinking this. So my question to you is. What house rules do you use to balance the game?

The way i see it i have three options:

1.) Remove cards, but there are too few already. So i don't want to do that.

2.) Enable the players to spend clues they already own in the same way as clues they gain. But I'm afraid that this would make the game too easy.

3.) Quit playing Eldritch and stick with Arkham. But i really like Eldritch, so this is not an option either.

What do you guys think?

Uhm, I take it if you need to spend 16 clues on something then you're playing it with 8 players, then map should be ridden with clues, then whats the friggin problem?

Can you give some details?

Thanks for replying!

We play with 4 players

Mystery card required 8 clues, rumor required 8 clues = 16 clues.

Besides that some cards require you to pick up clues when you spend them others require you to already have them. Which makes it impossible to know when to pick up clues or not. Eg you have no idea if its good or bad to pick up clues so you can't really prepare for the next mystery.

Hope that expalins stuff.

You should always be looking to pick up clues. Even if you don't need them to solve mysteries or rumors, they give you rerolls.

And if you ever need more clues, there is always London.

Having clues to spare is good, but unless it's last mystery - some need to hang around in case of mystery that requires a successful clue encounter, that's right.

Richard Upton Pickman, what exact Mystery and Rumor are you talking about here? Just out of curiosity.

A little tip: Run Ms. Jaqueline Fine/Norman Withers/Trish or any combination of them. They have some upper hands while it comes down to clue problem.

If it was Shub, I'm pretty sure its Nature of the All-Mother. Its the only mystery for Shub that would require 8 clues.

As for the Rumor.. I think there are a few that require clues = # of investigators.

Edit: Actually, I'm wrong. The only Rumor is Spreading Sickness. That's one of the "Hard Mode" rumors, you can always remove that if you don't want that to hit in an 8 player game.

@C2K

London is too unreliable. Sometimes you get the clues, sometimes they are placed in the middle of nowhere where you have to travel several turns to pick them up. In any case, they are too valuable to spend to improve rolls unless you are in dire need.

What really annoys me is that a single card can put an end to the entire game. But perhaps i'm just too stuck on thinking in the same way I do in arkham where there are clues in abundance.

@Trololo

I'll have to get home from work to check the cards out. I'll get back to you.

And, I guess we'll have to choose investigators according to their abilities regarding clues rather than anything else.

@C2K

London is too unreliable. Sometimes you get the clues, sometimes they are placed in the middle of nowhere where you have to travel several turns to pick them up. In any case, they are too valuable to spend to improve rolls unless you are in dire need.

What really annoys me is that a single card can put an end to the entire game. But perhaps i'm just too stuck on thinking in the same way I do in arkham where there are clues in abundance.

For Nature of the All-Mother though, spawning clues all over the map is the way to do that one. In an 8 player game, having 2 people in London while the other 6 go clue hunting can finish that mystery in 2-3 turns, under perfect conditions of course. In reality it might take more like 5-6 turns.

If you did hit Spreading Sickness though, that is just unfortunate. The good news is that the number of clues needed to solve it does decrease as health tokens get put on it; the bad news is it wrecks your crew's health. That is just a bad situation in a Shub game where health is the stat you need to watch the most.(since you can't be afraid to fight monsters) My advice would be to remove this rumor from being considered for the mythos deck next time you play an 8-player game, because ultimately it seems this card gave you the negative experience.

Hmmm.. wondering about the actual linearity of getting clues. Let's think this way: what are the odds to actually get a clue during a research encounter? I mean on average, a random character reading a random card and passing the check? I still have to do the math for these encounters, but let's try to be generous and say it's 50% (which is certainly not). This means in a 1-investigator game, on average, you have to spend 2 turns to be sure to grab the clue (not that actually this is correct, you can fumble the roll several turns in a row, but on average, it's a 2-turn time). If you play 8 investigators, and you accept to send all eight of them to hunt for clues (which is impossible, with 8 you have a board that's killing you if you lose focus for a while) you have 8 50% check to pass. What are the odds to cover this in two rounds? Easy peasy:

odds to pass at least once a single 50% check in two rounds: p = (1-(1-0.5)^2) = 75%

odds to pass at least once a single 50% check in two rounds: p(8) = p^8 = 10%

That's the mathematical proof that basically, 8 investigators are screwed.

____________________

To the OP: even though I'm not at all comfortable with addressing Nikki as being "a jerk", I share your pain. The game is good for many things, and has some greater ideas in it, and the general vision of the Mythos is getting more and more interesting as cards & expansions keep on arriving, but I agree with you, some of the cards are simply overpunishing and are enough to screw even the most brilliant strategy. This is something you have to deal with, in some way, or try to bend the game in a direction that fancies you more. Removing Hard Mythos can be an option, but still, it's probably not enough since also other cards are really... ridicuolously harsh. That's why, even if seduced by the setting, the game remains most of the time on my shelf.

Some things that haven't been mentioned yet:

First, several cards give you bonus clues if you pass ("take this clue and one additional clue").

Second, while the odds may be harsh for all eight investigators to each get their clue in two turns, if we assume a uniform distribution of outcomes, then for every investigator that doesn't get a clue in two turns there will be one who did get a clue in one turn (and hence can start their work of getting another clue).

Third, in a larger game you are more likely to encounter artifacts/assets that assist in clues (for example the one artifact that gives you five clues when you get it).

As noted, if you are playing with eight investigators then you should also take advantage of the other ways to get clues that don't depend on research encounters (Trish, Jacqueline, even Norman who can spend one clue less).

A final note: getting the game to work for all the variations in numbers of players is not easy. Perhaps I'm biased since I don't play with more then four characters so I don't feel the pain, but I do feel they did a good job of making a game playable with just a few characters.

[Edited to add item regarding clues through assets/artifacts]

Pushed by curiosity, i did the math for Research encounters for Shub (core game cards only). Results are interesting:

- 8 encounters out of 24 gives you an option to gain 2 clues instead of one

- the most checked parameter is OBS (12 times) and then STR, WILL, INF, LORE are all tested a max of 2 times

- the "best man in town" to gather clues is Trish (72% of successes) and on average, 60% of the Research encounters ends up in a success

so that, actually saying 1 time every 2 turns on average to gather one clue is not such a bad estimee.

Agreed with Ricedwlit, designing a game working properly with 8 and with 1 could be an near to impossible task. Still, I think the OP's point was that what he dislikes of the game is that certain cards are overly punishing for players and that by simply drawing an unlucky card, a good game can be ruined. Whether this is the best feature of the game or the reason why you hate it, it's, I believe, totally subject to personal taste.

8 player games seem mathematically difficult, but you really just need more teamwork than you do in smaller games. In a 4 or less player game, players can get away with doing their own thing while solving the mysteries and many times it will work out ok. In an 8 player game, you have to(as in you are forced to) work together to complete goals, otherwise you won't win. I suppose in that way the game does punish you for playing with more people.

That said, I play other co-ops that are far more harsh than EH, so the game never really bothered me when an underhanded rumor pops up and makes a difficult mystery that much harder to complete. I enjoy having my plans shattered to where I have to adjust my strategy on the fly in order to adapt to the situation. I believe that is the best way to describe the Rumors in EH. However, I can understand that not everyone feels the same way; I even have a player in my game group that despises games that push the players around too much(which is why that person enjoys Elder Sign but isn't a fan of EH).

(Sorry, couldn't restist stealing/borrowing the topic from a mansions post.)

First of all. I really love this game, it has so much potential and is an absolute joy to play. But some of the rumors are just evil. Basically they just make you loose the game. They give you no chance or time to finsh them.

With Shub-Niggurath one mystery+a specific rumor requires you to spend 16(!) clues to solve them. And then you have to solve two additional mysteries. Its just not possible to do in 12 turns. I like a challenge as much as anyone else. I love Arkham Horror and all its randomness. I have no problems loosing most of the games I play. But i absolutley HATE having to lose a game because i drew the wrong card halfway into the game.

Now, I know I'm not alone in thinking this. So my question to you is. What house rules do you use to balance the game?

The way i see it i have three options:

1.) Remove cards, but there are too few already. So i don't want to do that.

2.) Enable the players to spend clues they already own in the same way as clues they gain. But I'm afraid that this would make the game too easy.

3.) Quit playing Eldritch and stick with Arkham. But i really like Eldritch, so this is not an option either.

What do you guys think?

-.- Newbie

-.- Newbie

Thank you for the input Jeff Albertson . I suppose I should be in awe of your grand expertise! FYI i have been playing these kind of games for about 30 years. I was one of those who bought Arkham Horror back in -87 (or something like that).

To the rest of you. Thanks for your help! We have just lost another game against azatoth. I'll try it again when Yig arrives. Until then, I think I'll stick to arkham.

@Julia

I agree! The intention of the topic isn't a try to be mean to the creators of the game. I meant it as a "tounge in cheek" reference to a post in the mansions thread. I have nothing against the designers of this game!

But then agian this game moves players multiple spaces from where thley want to go (just like "the keeper is a jerk" comment on the mansions forum). So perhaps they really are jerks! ;-)

-.- Newbie

Thank you for the input Jeff Albertson . I suppose I should be in awe of your grand expertise! FYI i have been playing these kind of games for about 30 years. I was one of those who bought Arkham Horror back in -87 (or something like that).

To the rest of you. Thanks for your help! We have just lost another game against azatoth. I'll try it again when Yig arrives. Until then, I think I'll stick to arkham.

I'm probably more newbie of you ( I've lost all games in 2 - 3p ), but I recognize that the game is just hard ( as should be a cooperative ) without any problem of balancing .

-.- Newbie

Thank you for the input Jeff Albertson . I suppose I should be in awe of your grand expertise! FYI i have been playing these kind of games for about 30 years. I was one of those who bought Arkham Horror back in -87 (or something like that).

To the rest of you. Thanks for your help! We have just lost another game against azatoth. I'll try it again when Yig arrives. Until then, I think I'll stick to arkham.

Please, tell me you're not serious...

Please, tell me you're not serious...

Of course not. I was being ironic, just forgot that it doesn't translate well into text.

I was answering as i would have answered if Mr Jeff had posted...

Is it such a bad thing, really?

AH has a mind of its own and sometimes you play the game and it's impossible to win.

The card pool is so huge that it's very unlikely to get the same unwinable game twice.

When this kind of situation happens in AH it's all part of the fun.

The problem with EH is that the card pool is so small, the chances of getting this unplayable combo is much higher and getting the same combo repeatedly is frustrating. As the card pool expands this will be less of an issue, eventually it will become part of the fun.

I've ran into some pretty horrible cards too. I've considered taking some of them out before playing but then never do. When I read the cards that causes me issues in game they don't seem that bad on their own so I leave them in. But combined with the other circumstances they can seem horribly difficult.

For example, there's been a couple times where I have a mystery out that says when solving a mystery you may spend one clue from that mystery to place on this card...

It doesn't seem so bad, but spawn a Mi-go monster with that card out and I wanna flip the table in frustration!

(I might be wrong, but the Mi-go is the clue eater, right? Which ever monster is the clue eater is the one I mean when I say Mi-go).

I'm trying to solve clues to solve the mystery but there's never any clues on the board! And if I do get one to spawn the Mi-go eats it before I can get there and solve it!

Also, I don't like removing mysteries since there are only 4 in the first place. If I remove 1 before playing then there's no mystery as to what mysteries will be drawn. lol

Instead of removing cards before play, has anyone thought about removing monsters?

I've never tried it yet, but taking the Mi-go, star-spawn and one or two others out of the monster cup might be a solution.

I don't see why monsters couldn't be rated easy/medium/hard much like rumors.

Of course, if you remove the Mi-Go, you also remove the pretty large benefit you get from killing him (a free artifact).

I like when the Mi-go spawns. I hate the Wraith with a passion though. Always pops up when I'm lead investigator.

I have never had a problem when the Mi-Go spawn, if you keep an investigator in London you can fill the board with clues and not be as hard pressed.

I like when the Mi-go spawns. I hate the Wraith with a passion though. Always pops up when I'm lead investigator.

Played too much Ouija, she's after you