In my newest campaign I've decided to try out the navigation rules from Navis Prima. They seemed really cool at face value, but...

While the first voyage went ok, the second one has been a disaster. The players rolled poorly, but not horribly. It seems that while the Navigator's skills are very important you WILL end up having warp encounters if the Pilot's skill isn't really stellar.

So far (and this voyage isn't over yet), Warp Sickness broke out all over the ship and it's probably going to last awhile (poor medicae skills). So far the ship has lost over 20% of its crew and morale. While this was going on a Plauge of Madness also has taken over the ship. Most recently they hit a Temporal Hole. It would appear that even if the Warp Sickness is cured the ship will be crippled from loss of crew and morale and tossed centuries forward or backwards in time.

Have others run into this problem with these charts or did my group really come up with a killer combination?

I wanted something besides the "you see a ghost ship" warp encounter but this is killer. Their ship even has some warp aids (Miloslav and Warpsbane).

What is your take on it?

I second this question! I never tested those rules, only read them and they seemed pretty rough.

I've gone through all the older topics and people have discussed this before, but it was because someone was misreading the rules. I did not misread the rules (I read them many times and charted the whole process out before attempting it with my players).

The process and the charts are all very cool. The problem lies with the sheer number of encounters, and the incredible number of dice rolling it generates. With this many tosses of the dice, something very bad is bound to come up.

Heck, the very first scenario in the core rulebook has the players going into the Foundling Worlds (or Winterscale's Realm, depending on how you interpret the colossol FFG screw-up in editing). The Foundling Worlds have the PC's vessel in warpspace for probably 100+ days, resulting in 20 encounter rolls + 20 avoidance rolls + 20 relay rolls + 20 pilot rolls, meaning something awful is bound to happen to the ship multiple times in this single voyage. I'd be amazed if any ship made it through intact. I'm positive Fel's ship wouldn't make it.

How do chartist captains survive at all?

Chartists technically don't exist per Navis Primer (References to Navigators being an absolute requirement, jumping without one is suicide, etc.), but for the most part they do it Battlestar Galactica-style; small jump, weeks calculating the next one, small jump, etc. The most powerful and wealthy of Chartists have been doing it so long that they possess charts and calculations that enable them to go further and faster, but still nowhere within the capabilities of an actual Navigator.

I think the major problem with the new encounters chart is that you go from a 45/100 (Assuming your Navigator passed the Charting the Course test) chance of nothing happening to 20/100, with no way of increasing your odds of success unless you've got ship components like a Warpsbane Hull, which leads to even MORE rolling and deliberation. The way I was thinking of doing it was to make proper maps harder to acquire and create, but have them improve the chance of an All's Well result by reducing the number you rolled(-5 for Basic, -10 for Detailed, additional -1d10 if you created them yourself), or by flipping the table and making it a positive modifier.

And yeah, the first time I ran these rules properly (Previously we had an NPC navigator so I just used an app I wrote to breeze through the process in five seconds then cherrypick how terrible the voyage was) it took about an hour; the journey originally started out as a 9-day jaunt from one sub-sector to another, and turned into 56 days of components bursting into flame, narrowly avoiding space hulk debris, and the Navigator being Mazed and forced to figure a way out of a labyrinthine library. The entire thing was fun for me and the navigator, everyone else's eyes sort of glazed over after the first five minutes of rolling.

And yeah, the first time I ran these rules properly (Previously we had an NPC navigator so I just used an app I wrote to breeze through the process in five seconds then cherrypick how terrible the voyage was) it took about an hour; the journey originally started out as a 9-day jaunt from one sub-sector to another, and turned into 56 days of components bursting into flame, narrowly avoiding space hulk debris, and the Navigator being Mazed and forced to figure a way out of a labyrinthine library. The entire thing was fun for me and the navigator, everyone else's eyes sort of glazed over after the first five minutes of rolling.

This more or less matches my experience, except it wasn't even fun for me. :-/

I started making it fun for myself and giving the others something to do by having their augur arrays and broadband hymncaster catch on fire. They couldn't leave the ship to put the fires out, so it kept spreading through their hard-linked voxes and setting fire to other components. That was after about 45 minutes of rolling though, so it was something of a last-ditch attempt to get the others involved in the game. There was much screaming about dropping out of the warp early before the fire spread to the drinks hold, counterbalanced with 'But we could wind up anywhere, and have to do this AGAIN!'

So, yeah. The Navis Primer rules are good if you're comfortable with making a session almost entirely revolve around the Navigator rolling dice while you desperately try to find something for the rest of the crew to do.

Knew there was a reason I haven't purchased the Navis Primer book yet.

It's really not one of the better books, if you implement anything from it at all into a game I suggest you do so very piecemeal. What's also irritating is basically all of it's alt-ranks suck hardcore, they all come with small bonuses in the form of excessively convoluted rulesets and massive sucky constraints and baggage.

The book is helpful for fleshing out navigator and warp fluff and the weirdboy is awesome but I have no idea how you would make him work as a party member outside of a full ork game. Beyond that I really can't see what the hell they were thinking with the book it just over complicates something that was already so complicated it threatened to swallow entire sessions with devastating sidetracks.

So far my group has never had an opportunity to do navigator stuff because nobody plays one and I've opted not to have some NPC screw the party all the time with behind the screen rolls. I try to come up with ways to incorporate the actual warp travel but it's never anything more than an extended test where they have to handle the effects of the transit on the ship's systems and the crew.

There is a navigator or navigators on the ship but I've deliberately avoided defining him/her/them in any way other than stating that him/her/they come and go in an enclosed sedan chair, rarely ever leave the navigator's tower and only communicate with the players via texts. I've done that so I can write in a player navigator the moment someone shows up wanting to be one and the two of us can then generate a minor plot about why him/her/they have been so aloof and secretive.

After giving this some thought I've decided I'll have to make some of my own charts.

What I want to see is more damage and less save-or-die situations. Ships should only get lost in the warp when everything goes wrong, which means lone traders running on a shoestring, or ships so badly damaged that they have penalties in everything they do.

I want more options with crew losses, due to death or insanity doesn't so much matter, as long as it's something the PCs have to continually contend with. The Warp needs to be feared, and every voyage should be approached with care, and not nonchalantly.

I do like Navis, don't get me wrong. I thought it fixed many things, especially when it comes to correct skill useage. Navigators shouldn't be testing Perception in the warp. They needed to make Psyniscience worth something. They just overdid it with the Encounter table. That's too many rolls, too much instant death for an entire ship.

For what it's worth, my experience differs from what most people seem to be encountering. Our Navigator had a rough time the first few trips, decided to be the best **** Navigator she could be, and bought skill ranks and advances to help out. She's also willing to spend a fate point occasionally to help out, as is the Voidmaster when she gets involved. Because of it they've had several few smooth trips in a row. On the last three trips they didn't even actually have an encounter because they always managed to detect and avoid it.

One voyage to Damaris should change your mind. After testing Psyniscience, Navigation, and Piloting each 20+ times, the Law of Averages indicates a certain number of failures. The Law of Averages also indicates that a number of those failures will be fatal. Everyone else will get to sit there ono the edge of their seats while the Navigator and Voidmaster kill the crew and wreck the ship, all in very unexciting fashion.

Really, I think all campaigns have characters willing to spend Fate points. I can't remember anyone having horded them. Our current Navigator is a pretty good min-maxer specializing in navigating the ship. She hasn't been purchasing Navigator powers in hopes of using them in dungeon crawls (not that I'd ever be caught drawing one up).

Awesome. Seems like you've got it figured out. I didn't realize your post about making your own charts meant you didn't need any further opinions/experiences.

I do like Navis, don't get me wrong. I thought it fixed many things, especially when it comes to correct skill useage. Navigators shouldn't be testing Perception in the warp. They needed to make Psyniscience worth something. They just overdid it with the Encounter table. That's too many rolls, too much instant death for an entire ship.

Check it out.

Awesome. Seems like you've got it figured out. I didn't realize your post about making your own charts meant you didn't need any further opinions/experiences.

And I must agree with the Knight Errant. That many rolls, odds are you will have a few bad ones. And those bad ones can be very bad.

It could be bad rolls, but the first few trips I've seen with the navis-system, nearly killed one of my campaigns. Last session involved non-problematic warp travels, to the surprise of everyone.

I don't bother checking my players' rolls - most of them are stricter about that sort of things than I am anyway - but the navigator's player was as surprised as anyone that we'd actually gotten through without troubles, and he's an excellent min-max'er if you let him.

So far, Warp travel seems to be more dangerous (when using the Navis system) than fleet battles.

All that said, my main problem is that it means that we go to warp, and then the rest of my players are kept inactive for the next 30-70 minutes.

Sure, the pilot probably shouldn't leave the room, and having the RT around to fight the fires is often a good idea, but other than the occasional bit, that means a lot of time where everyone is out of action and unable to affect the story in any way. No-one but the navigator even has a chance to sense what's happening. And as explained elsewhere that's really bad.

Now, it makes sense that only the navigator (and maybe the pilot) is relevant for warp travel, and consistance of setting demands that warp travel is dangerous, but it quite simply takes too much time from the players I think, and renders too many characters irrelevant.

"Ships are lost in the Warp every year" doesn't mean that jumping between 2 familiar locations via a well-charted route should be more lethal to individuals favoured by the fates (that is, having fate points) than naval battles.

Many thanks Tenebrae. Can you help me with a location on that errata? It's not on the same page with their other free downloads. 1.3 doesn't cover anything past the Bestiary, and 1.4 has some stuff in it for Stars in Inequity but nothing for Navis Primer.

Many thanks Tenebrae. Can you help me with a location on that errata? It's not on the same page with their other free downloads. 1.3 doesn't cover anything past the Bestiary, and 1.4 has some stuff in it for Stars in Inequity but nothing for Navis Primer.

The errata I was refering to corrected the core book (to use Psyniscience and Navigation (Warp)), not the Navis Primer, sadly.

My apologies if I gave you false hope.

Think the main issue with the NP rules is making it just between the Navigator, the Voidmaster and the GM. Most of the Encounters involve something happening to the crew of one sort or another which require attention, likely from another PC. Do think that on long voyages the sheer number of encounters becomes ridiculous - am semi-inclined to space out the 'days per encounter' to 10, see if that makes it more reasonable.

Belay that request Tenebrae. As with so many other editing problems by FFG, I see that their pdf titled "Living Errata" is filed under the link titled "FAQ." And, it has nothing on the Navis Primer. They've just added Hostile Acquisitions and Stars of Inequity since last I downloaded it. Very disappointing.

You posted before me Tenebrae. Yes, you gave me some false hope but I forgive you for it. Heh.

Alpharius, I was going to do something just like what you have suggested...leave the minimum number of encounter checks at 1, but only test for encounters every days or so.

I still have to do something about those travel times in the Foundling Worlds, though. Footfall to Damaris still results in 20 Psyniscience, 20 Navigation, and 20 Piloting checks (yes, I do realize there is a shorter route).

In the end I need something a bit more complicated than a straight geometric formula. I need something that tests multiple times for 30 days in the warp but not 10 times that amount for 300 days in the warp.

In the end I need something a bit more complicated than a straight geometric formula. I need something that tests multiple times for 30 days in the warp but not 10 times that amount for 300 days in the warp.

Exponentially longer time between encounters. I toyed about with that at one point.

Never got a version I was happy about though.

Yes, Tenebrae, though I am playing with the formula for diminishing returns right now and substituting time-in-warp for inputs and encounters for output.

So I've drawn up some house rules. I'll post them if GMs here want. I can as easily go over to the house rules section.

May as well be House Rules, so that other people can benefit from being able to find less terrible rules for navigation.

Here goes...the format doesn't quite transfer from Word, so I'll do what I can. I have tried to keep the rules intact as much as possible, and included the stuff from Navis Primer. Astrography is now the skill used to draw maps of the charts successfully navigated. Read and let me know what you think. Are there any gaping holes?

Navigation

1. Divining the Auguries

a. Good Portents – bonus to all tests (performed by priests with -20 for others) during this Warp voyage

b. Bad Portents – penalty to all tests (Captain/Missionary can negate Bad Portents) during this Warp voyage

2. Locating the Astronomicon

a. Navigator tests Psyniscience (House rituals affect this test)

i. Obscured -10

ii. Shrouded -20

iii. Warp Antennae +20

iv. Lightless

Success = Bonus to steering = +10 per success

Failure = Penalty to steering = -10 per success

3. Steering the Vessel

a. Modifiers

i. Quality Charts -10/+10/+20

ii. Warpsbane Hull +10

iii. Bellecane Geller Field +10

iv. Fleet Flag Bridge +5

v. Runecaster +20

vi. Warp Sextant +20

vii. Stable Route +10

viii. Unstable +0

ix. Surly -10

x. Haunted -20

b. Success = All’s Well; successes accrue toward required distance

i. Eldar Runecasters double the number of successes (I decided to do away with the speed of the Miloslav drives but you can do what you want. They already require less power for no extra cost, so I'm leaving it at that. They cost less power but bring more danger. I'd bet people still use them more than other drives.)

c. Failure = encounter check

i. Failure Warp currents

ii. Failure by 1 degree Aetheric Breakers

iii. Failure by 2 degrees Warp Sickness

iv. Failure by 3 degrees Warp Storm

v. Failure by 4 degrees Void Kraken

vi. Failure by 5 degrees Demon Incursion

vii. Bellecane Fields add 2 degrees of failure

viii. Warp Antennae add 1 degree of failure

ix. Miloslav Engines add 1 degree of failure

x. Warpsbane Hulls reduce 1 degree of failure

4. Leaving the Warp – check for time to docking/orbit – Navigation (Stellar) test

Aetheric Current – The voyage might seem short or long but accurate time is lost and cannot be corrected until the ship leaves the Warp and the Astropath re-establishes contact.

Aetheric Breakers – Navigator warns the pilot, who tests to avoid or the ship takes 1d10+2 damage, ignoring shields. A “10” also indicates a possible critical hit, though only exterior components can take damage. Let's hope it isn't your Geller Field.

Warp Sickness – The weakest members of the crew are affected first, but the malady spreads rapidly. There are 3 basic types of Warp Sickness, the one that causes actual illness, the one that causes insanity, and the one that causes corruption. Test Toughness or Willpower, as necessary, and keep testing it for the length of the voyage, or until the malady is cured. All types of sickness spread through the crew, incapacitating them, reducing both Crew and Morale.

Warp Storm – Exit the Warp or the pilot tests to avoid damage 1d10 times, taking 1d10 to the vessel for every degree of failure. Continue with the tests until the storm abates or the Warp is exited. If the ship exits the Warp, start the voyage over, except the vessel is deep in voidspace.

Void Kraken – S3, WS 50, 1d10+2, Crit 5, Armor 0, Hull 50. Can be avoided by successful Navigation. The Void Kraken can be escaped from by Piloting with 3 degrees of success in a single test, or by an extended test with 7 successes.

Demon Incursion – Increasing incursion begins as swarms of demonic bugs attacking the crew and machinery in an attempt to disable the Geller Field. The Navigator can dispel this attempt with a Test of the Soul. If the Navigator fails the Test of the Soul, the crew will eventually be overcome by the swarms. Inflict 1d5 on the vessel, Crew, and Morale for every test the Navigator makes.

Routes of the Koronus Expanse

1. The Maw – the Maw, from Port Wander to Footfall, requires a single success to navigate. If any navigation test fails, the Navigator can avoid the encounter by dropping out of the Warp to any of the Stations of Passage. This can be done 4 times in a single passage, but no station can be visited more than once.

Travel within a sub-sector requires 1d5 successes on an extended challenge. Travel from one sub-sector to an adjacent sub-sector requires 1d10 successes. Traveling across sub-sectors requires 1d10+2 successes per sub-sector crossed.

Location Routes Astronomicon

Winterscale’s Realm Stable Visible

Ragged Worlds Unstable Obscured

Heathen Stars Stable Visible

Accursed Demense Unstable Obscured

Cinerius Maleficum Unstable Obscured

Cauldron Surly Shrouded

Rifts of Hecaton Haunted Lightless

Foundling Worlds Surly Obscured

Unbeholden Reaches Haunted Shrouded

Charting Routes

Charting new routes requires successful use of the Astrography skill.

Stable routes are +10 to chart

Obscured routes are -10 to chart

Shrouded routes are -20 to chart

Lightless routes cannot be charted

Not exactly what I want, but certainly not bad. Gave me a few ideas.

Let's see if I ever get around to using any of them