Well, it depends on how common you make them. In the setting - at least the version I "grew up on" - there are indeed some people who, by virtue of their innocence/indoctrination, have a certain resistance against Corruption. That the system makes little difference between them and some Hive ganger who grew up eating half-cooked rats and killing kids for their lunch just doesn't seem very fitting to me. In short, I don't believe everyone should start on the same level (0) on the Corruption scale, and for some few types of characters it may indeed seem awfully unsuitable to become tainted at all.

I agree that this is very much a matter of interpretation, though!

Anyone who's had to murder children for lunch is probably more than a little depraved, or desperate. Either one makes them fodder for the Dark Gods.

The only humans truly immune to corruption are the Grey Knights (And some will argue not even them); even the notoriously pious Sisters of Battle can and have been swayed by the forces of Chaos. One way or another, it will worm its way in, finding a crack in even the thickest of spiritual armor. Your faithful character may be stronger than most men, but Chaos is patient and imaginative. If you stare into the darkness for long enough, it will stare back into you.

even the notoriously pious Sisters of Battle can and have been swayed by the forces of Chaos

Depending on the source you read. GW described them as "incorruptible" - whether or not that's true is up to individual interpretation, of course, just like with the Grey Knights. Though it is notable that the way the GKs retain their purity seems to rely on rituals involving Sororitas blood. To me, that's a strong indication of who has a stronger innate resistance.

Then again, I think FFG has completely ditched this addition to GK fluff in favour of retaining the old image, as far as the Daemon Hunter supplement is concerned. From the newer GK fluff, they only took the Dreadknight.

One way or another, it will worm its way in, finding a crack in even the thickest of spiritual armor. Your faithful character may be stronger than most men, but Chaos is patient and imaginative. If you stare into the darkness for long enough, it will stare back into you.

I'm not really argueing that - just that this should actually be represented in the rules, too, rather than the system not taking this strength or delay into account.

I personally consider the SoB incorruptible kinda the same way as politicians.

Make of that what you will

There's an old quote about entropy and decay that might be relevant.

Put a spoonful of fine wine in a barrel of sewage and you have a barrel of sewage.

Put a spoonful of sewage in a barrel of fine wine and you have a barrel of sewage.

I think part of the 'horror' of the WH40K universe is that there is little room for redemption in any case and almost none which doesn't result in the death of the offending party.

Part of this is just a result of the horrific culture of anger and paranioa that the Imperium was built on and then codified into an actual religion*. Part of this is a resonable response to the insidious nature of Chaos that if not stamped and burn out will grow again.

Incidentally certain careers/homeworlds I seem to remember do begin with corruption points. Corruption isn't just being evil or jaded but about actually a rotting of the soul which then manifests itself physically. I personally take the view that even one corruption point is a big deal (my campaigns are quite low on the corruption level). for me corruption takes a level of acceptance. If you have had to eat kids for lunch to survive because you grew up in 'Cannibal Hive' you haven't had much choice. I would more inclined to give you a butt load of insanity points.

If however your the administratrum official who came up with creating 'Cannibal Hive' because it helps with food supply and you know full well the results and there is an alternative which is slightly more expensive but 'hey what the hell it's only people'...

Well then I think it is corruption time.

I would be a bit wary of how 'Purity' would operate particularly if the higher levels involve full on fanaticism. That level of conviction is bread and butter stuff for the chaos Gods to subvert.

I would have thought it would be the humble level headed types who would have the highest levels of Purity in the sense of being resistant to Chaos simply because they know they are mortal and all too frail. They are always on the watch for the lure of Chaos and for the most part walk the line by avoiding Chaos in the first place (which I think is a trait of those with Imeprial Homeworld. 'Blessed Ignorance').

Maybe in the same way that Corruption grants mutations then Purity then grants certain different perks to represent that purity manifesting which could range from the equivilent effect of Jaded Talent but relation to corruption through to Faith Talents.

Also maybe the two tracks could work in parallel rather than as a spectrum. Afterall one of the bizzarre and frightning things about humans is the way they justify their actions. Evil people don't generally 'plot' so much as 'compartmentalise' their evil.

It is perfectly possible for the KKK to run a charity drive against homelessness as it is for them to organise hate rallys (don't know if they do run charity drives???!!!).

*People sometimes think that GW have taken certain ideologies and religions and ramped them up to 11 in SPAAAAACE!. While this is true stylistically, background wise what has happened is somewhat more subtle. Instead GW has taken those ideologies and removed key idea, doctrines and teachings and then let the ball roll in a different direction. So for example running throughout all of Catholic theology is the idea of unconditional forgiveness This is utterly expunged from the Ecclesiarchy. A key part of f eudalism and aristocracy is the idea of a social contract based on protection. This is removed from Imperial nobility and so on.

I personally consider the SoB incorruptible kinda the same way as politicians.

Make of that what you will

So they're ALL corrupt?

I personally consider the SoB incorruptible kinda the same way as politicians.

Make of that what you will

Hate to disagree old boy but I'm not sure that is actually possible.

Trying to be as corruptible as a politician is kind of like trying to travel at the speed of light, you never quite make it.

They can always do something to make themselves that much more disappointing.

I would be a bit wary of how 'Purity' would operate particularly if the higher levels involve full on fanaticism. That level of conviction is bread and butter stuff for the chaos Gods to subvert.

I would have thought it would be the humble level headed types who would have the highest levels of Purity in the sense of being resistant to Chaos simply because they know they are mortal and all too frail. They are always on the watch for the lure of Chaos and for the most part walk the line by avoiding Chaos in the first place (which I think is a trait of those with Imeprial Homeworld. 'Blessed Ignorance').

You can be humble and fanatical - it all depends on how your beliefs are constructed. In the end, fanaticism does not always have to display itself as frothing zeal and unbridled holy rage, but may very well simply be an extreme level of stubbornness. Mother Teresa was sometimes described to be a fanatic, for example.

I think fanaticism is most often linked to aggression because that's the fastest and most obvious way an obsession/conviction exerts itself, but just because someone lives their beliefs in a calmer, more subtle way, does not mean they are necessarily less stubborn - or unscrupulous when push really does come to shove. Else fanaticism would have a much harder time to spread, if we're looking at how quickly perfectly ordinary populations can transform into mobs of murderers in service to some holy crusade, witch hunts, or pogroms. They don't flip a switch overnight; the belief that allows them to commit such brutal acts must have already been present.

In 40k, there are indeed some notable examples of humble folks that without doubt had a high level of Purity - Sebastian Thor probably being the most prominent example. But in the end, I believe that the only effect of being a "quiet fanatic" means that you channel your conviction in a different way ... non-aggressive Acts of Faith, if you will.

Maybe in the same way that Corruption grants mutations then Purity then grants certain different perks to represent that purity manifesting which could range from the equivilent effect of Jaded Talent but relation to corruption through to Faith Talents.

Also maybe the two tracks could work in parallel rather than as a spectrum. Afterall one of the bizzarre and frightning things about humans is the way they justify their actions. Evil people don't generally 'plot' so much as 'compartmentalise' their evil.

This ties into how exactly we interpret Corruption. With the way it is represented in the rules, it does not strike me as being about morals and ideals, but rather actual Warp taint - and whilst there is a correllation, I don't think it works both ways.

In short, if you're corrupted you are most likely evil, as the taint affects the way you think and feel. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to be evil and not corrupted - and it is this, I wager, that applies to most people in 40k we'd classify as "evil" from our PoV. Otherwise every 2nd Imperial official would be running around with tentacle arms, nine eyes or various other mutations.

Just being "evil" is not enough. It can set you down a path of corruption and slowly erode your mind if your justification isn't good enough for your own subconscious, ultimately making it easier for the daemons of the Warp to taint your soul. However, a fervent belief that you only do what must be done may well provide protection. Specifically because "evil" is subjective - there is no universal law that clearly defines it and that the Warp needs to abide to. What matters is how your own subconscious interprets your actions, as this directly affects the mental barrier - the Purity - of your soul.

At least that's how I see it!

So for example running throughout all of Catholic theology is the idea of unconditional forgiveness This is utterly expunged from the Ecclesiarchy. A key part of f eudalism and aristocracy is the idea of a social contract based on protection. This is removed from Imperial nobility and so on.

Hmmh, that's not what I read, though this probably too depends on the individual books. The SoB Codex had an entire fluff box just about forgiveness, with the twist that sins need to be "paid off" in some sort, with the price ranging from money and indentured service all the way to torture and death - but all the way, the official reason for this is because the Ecclesiarchy wants to "save your soul". That's really just copying the medieval Church, including the idea of letters of indulgence.

With the nobility it's a bit more tricky, as every individual world has its own culture and thus its own form of "contract" between commoners and nobles, such as the Jopall and their indentured status being based on owing money to their government.

Overall, I feel it's probably a mixture of what you contest and the suggested alternative.

So for example running throughout all of Catholic theology is the idea of unconditional forgiveness This is utterly expunged from the Ecclesiarchy. A key part of f eudalism and aristocracy is the idea of a social contract based on protection. This is removed from Imperial nobility and so on.

Hmmh, that's not what I read, though this probably too depends on the individual books. The SoB Codex had an entire fluff box just about forgiveness, with the twist that sins need to be "paid off" in some sort, with the price ranging from money and indentured service all the way to torture and death - but all the way, the official reason for this is because the Ecclesiarchy wants to "save your soul". That's really just copying the medieval Church, including the idea of letters of indulgence.

At risk of going horribly off topic this is good example of what I'm getting at. Indulgences according to the theology wasn't to do with forgiveness but rather paying off the punishment. You had to have already been forgiven of the sin.

I have to admit I can't remember reading about the Ecclesiarchy doctrine on forgiveness though it doesn't feature very heavily anywhere else in the WH40K fluff!

At risk of going horribly off topic this is good example of what I'm getting at. Indulgences according to the theology wasn't to do with forgiveness but rather paying off the punishment. You had to have already been forgiven of the sin.

I'm no expert on Christian theology (so my comparisons may be somewhat flawed), but from what I can gather from the Vatican website , forgiveness only removes the "eternal punishment", whilst the "temporal punishment" remains. Letters of indulgence are/were sold to remove this "temporal punishment", essentially saving the buyer from purgatory, where said person supposedly went if they did not purify themselves in life.

The Ecclesiarchy in 40k kind of meshes the eternal and temporal punishment together - there is no "in-between" like purgatory; either you go directly to heaven (the Emperor) or hell (the Warp), and you can only avoid the latter if the Church says you've been devout enough.

- 2E C:SoB

I suppose I should not have said "copying", as this implies a nigh-perfect mirror image, which would be incorrect. However, the similarities are fairly blatant. I suppose one could say that the small differences are just as important as the similarities in fleshing out this organisation and its role for the atmosphere of the setting, though.

I have to admit I can't remember reading about the Ecclesiarchy doctrine on forgiveness though it doesn't feature very heavily anywhere else in the WH40K fluff!

Yeah, the Imperial faith is one of the things that isn't discussed very often at all, barring the briefest of mentions. Kind of weird, given the role it plays for everyday life in the Imperium of Man. Alas, I suppose the average 40k fan is more interested in Space Marines wrecking gak, rather than how the average dude feels.

Even now, the "ancient" 2nd edition SoB Codex and the White Dwarf articles that accompanied it remain one of the most detailed descriptions of the Imperial Church, though the writers at Black Industries and FFG have also put a lot of work into their version of the Ecclesiarchy. Whilst I personally do not like Blood of Martyrs, someone who prefers its vision to GW's own material will likely find it a very worthwhile purchase.

The problem is that so much of this is correct, even when it contests itself.

The Imperium is huge, the church spread througout it, and the boundaries of compliance for worshiping the Emperor aren't exactly narrow (though the statutes are absolute). So sometimes you get people who want to kill everyone who doesn't follow their method and call anyone who doesn't pray the way they do a heretic worthy of the torch. Some accept mutants for their uses, others would rather burn them all than even look at them. So we get differing rules, but they don't conflict with the overall guidelines of the faith.

So what makes you more pious, really?

You make a good point. The Ecclesiarchy is a patchwork of countless different cultural influences, having absorbed local faiths into their own dogma to achieve easier absorption. Another thing where the Adeptus Ministorum seems a bit similar to the Christian faith, which had basically invented the mission (I recently read a very interesting article about its "early days" and how it managed to spread so fast compared to its Roman Pantheon predecessor).

Though I'm under the impression that there is still a set of universal core rules/values and themes, ranging from the Imperial Creed to the general style in which the clergy dresses (albeit my opinion on the latter is mostly based on only the artistic portrayal in official pictures and miniatures). The wildest differences may well be limited to recently converted worlds and/or planets with a very backwater culture (feral or feudal worlds) where the locals' weird beliefs are hard to blend into the usual scripture. I could think of the Ecclesiarchy trying to change such things over several generations, though this is merely a vague assumption.

As far as the official material is concerned, I only know of one, perhaps two organisations where the Imperial faith is universally the same regardless of location - the Adepta Sororitas, and maybe the Schola Progenium.

Our GM had a good example of that on the middle east based planet we started our Only War campaign on. Their leader was an Ayatollah who went heretic, the planetary governor was weak and couldn't stop him and there were death cults wandering the desert who were so frighteningly reverent of the God Emperor that you could catch a quick case of the death by kneeling at the wrong time of the day.

Our guardsmen, being from off world, thought they were all heretics regardless because we couldn't make heads or tails of their low gothic or their traditions, even if we as players understood what was going on.

Regardless, I think the Soroitas are a good example...for the most part. They have serveral different Orders for a reason, i doubt all of them agree completely, much like the Astartes have differences enough to punch each other in the face with bolters from time to time.

I don't know how it is portrayed in other sources, but GW had an article about specifically that bit - the Liber Sororitas in White Dwarf #293:

The problem is that so much of this is correct, even when it contests itself.

And this is why two people can have completly different views on the background, express those views and still have a civil discussion. And on the internet no less!

Thank you GW/FFG. Have +5 internet points.

I still believe that discussions would be more civil if there were an actual, universal "canon" - simply because there would not be different views on the background, or at least not for long. The main problem is that so many fans still don't realise that their own opinion cannot be The One Truth under such conditions, or rather that they expect consistency where none is applied by the creators, simply because other IPs handle it differently.

But if everyone is operating on the same level in regards to this detail ... then yeah, it can work.

I think the best explanation was given at one of the Inquisitor GTs (back when they ran them at Warhammer World). Two people were...not exactly arguing, but close, about some facet of inquisition background.

A third person pointed out "Look, they wrote 'Everything You Think You Know Is A Lie' on the spine of the **** book..."

If an imperial citizen sais the emperor does not exist nothing happens

(unless he did so within earshot of a commisar/ ecclesiarchy priest/ adeptus arbites/ Inquisitor/ redemptionist ganger/ ogryn/ group of pious citizens wielding flamers and pitchforks)

If a chaos follower sais Khorne doesn't exist he just might get eaten a moment later by a Flesh hound.

(espeically on a daemon world)

Also the daemons say their gods exist. You shouldn't trust a daemon, but neither should you get in an argument with a Bloodthirster.

Daemons exist because they are parts of/manifestations of the chaos god that "created" them. This proves The gods exist because the daemons exist.

Also two Eldar gods still exist (not counting khaine): Isha (captured by Nurgle) and Cegorach, the laughing god (loose in the webway) The rest of the eldar pantheon was killed by Slaanesh

I think the idea of "Purity Points" sort of undermines the insidious corruption of Chaos and one of the central themes of the setting. It's supposed to be a downward, irreversible spiral, and the reason it's so dangerous is that nobody is safe from it. It'd be like Call of Cthulhu if you could have a buffer against Insanity. It just isn't done.

Well it is possible to get sanity points back for completing adventures.

"you ok harvey?" "yeah, i-i-i still have nightmares but by god, we did stop those cultists from bringing that monster into our reality!" And if August Derleth had his way then the Elder gods would have our backs in the fight against the great oold ones and outer gods. Personaly i ignore those bits since they clash with HP Lovecfrat original concept of cosmic horror.

Daemons exist because they are parts of/manifestations of the chaos god that "created" them. This proves The gods exist because the daemons exist.

Can the same not be said of Living Saints? Either way that's pretty circular reasoning. Daemons of differing opposition might simply exist because these emotions exist and they may believe that they have a god simply because it's what they believe. The chaos gods could easily be concepts rather than actual daemonic manifestations and may simply create minor events of creation.

Daemons exist because they are parts of/manifestations of the chaos god that "created" them. This proves The gods exist because the daemons exist.

Can the same not be said of Living Saints? Either way that's pretty circular reasoning. Daemons of differing opposition might simply exist because these emotions exist and they may believe that they have a god simply because it's what they believe. The chaos gods could easily be concepts rather than actual daemonic manifestations and may simply create minor events of creation.

It gets sort of explained in the Liber Chaotica (Tzeentch) fluff book. The gods formed from coalesed emotions (khorne from hate, bloodlust, martial pride, anger, more anger, etc.) they become self aware and they create daemons in their image. The daemons then in turn work their influence on man adding more to their gods. Bloodletters don't "believe" in Khorne, they kNOW he he exists. (To quote Terry Pratchet: It's like believing in the mail man)

Actualy i don't think it is possible for a chaos god create a daemon thats diffrent from itself: Let me explain: Khorne can't make a passifist spell wielding blooletter and nurgle can't make healthy daemons with good skin.

One of the Chaos codices - I think it was 5E - mentioned that all the daemons are merely fragments of their patron god. Like proxies of the greater concept, given form and shape based purely on the dreams and emotions fed into the Immaterium, and being eternally linked to the god that spawned them until the time the daemon is "reabsorbed".

Of course, GW's material is just one possible interpretation of how Chaos works, but I found it an interesting idea and that it kind of makes sense.

The Liber Chaotica is from Fantasy no? It's not supposed to have bearing on 40k right? I use it as supplemental material as well so I agree.

The Liber Chaotica is from Fantasy no? It's not supposed to have bearing on 40k right? I use it as supplemental material as well so I agree.

WHile it's true that the LC was "written" by a character from the warhammer fantasy universe (wich pre-2nd edition retcon was a world in a permanent warpstorm IN the 40k universe) it does mention elements from 40k as the author recieves visions of the warp/imperium.

And besides the chaos gods (and daemon special characters) are the same in both universes. So anything stated about chaos itself (not mortal folowers) holds true both in 40k and fantasy.

Speaking on that I managed to find the Vampire supplement for 2nd edition WHFRP. I think my acolytes will be getting a fun suprise sometime in their future.

I do like that we are essentially getting a new Liber Chaotica with the Black Crusade Tomes of (insert god here) they're good material in my opinion even if you aren't using them to play Black Crusade.