Let me spin you something I've been pondering that I assure you wasn't thought of on obscuro fumes.

Are followes of the God Emperor less theological then the worshippers of Chavs? Here's how I see it. While the Emperor is really just a man and he's had a religion built off of him he still exists. He's alive, sort of, and people have seen him. We know where he lives and we can prove he's still there with the existence of the Astronomicon.

Chaos Worshippers say their gods exist. Yeah there's a hierarchy of daemons, but no one's ever seen a manifestation of a god save the Eldar seeing Slaneesh's birth and they were likely blitzed out of their minds, bodies, and souls at the time so testimonials are sketchy at best. In the end the only thing they can go off of is what they feel, rather than what they can prove. They have to use sorcery and silly rituals with numbers in them to get daemons, not even their gods necessarily in all truth it could be a powerful daemon, to do anything. They work off of pure faith and emotional energy alone.

Humans know the Emperor exists, and is protecthing them as best he can. The more you know it the more powerful you are, and he even rewards his faithful occasionally with very powerful acts that prove he's still intervening in his servants lives.

I'm not sure what the point of that all is, but I figured I'd share what I thought of.

Emotion, Base Desires and Faith fuel the 40K universe.

1. Base Desires and Emotions - such as avarice, hatred, rejection, etc... - fuel, and perhaps created, the chaos gods. It's not the faith of their followers, its the conglomerated awful of the sentient, psychic species throughout the galaxy that spawned and support the dark gods.

2. Humanity's faith in the emperor is what fuels the ability of some humans to perform amazing feats. It's sort of a psychic reflection. Man's faith in the Emperor being as powerful as it is, reflects back off the Emperor, giving the particularly faithful small pieces of the Emperor's psychic power. That power allows a normal man or woman to do superhuman things.

The Emperor is not kept alive by man's faith, however. He is kept alive by the thousands of souls he is constantly consuming from psykers bound to him. There is a conspiracy theory that suggest that the Emperor has already died in body, but he continues to exist as a powerful - though weakening - warp entity. The psyker's "sacrificed to the Emperor" are actually acting as the fuel for the Astronomican - which is little more than a massive soul furnace.

3. Finally, the battle between Order and Chaos, which is allegedly the base for the entire Warhammer universe, is (in 40k) simply a battle between man's faith in the Emperor and man's own failings. Faith in the Emperor is, either by accident or design, a sort of control mechanism. By asking/forcing mankind to give itself completely to the Emperor and his service, the Imperial Creed unwittingly prevents humanity from succumbing completely to its base instincts - which fuels the dark gods. While the Emperor would have abhorred the current state of the Imperium, it is undeniable that without the Imperium's "decision" to do away with the Imperial Truth, mankind would have long ago perished.

The my little pony, happy-ending of 40K is not that the Emperor awakens, there is little hope that will happen - unless you think he's a perpetual, like Vulkan (which is just about the dumbest **** I've ever read). The happy ending is mankind giving itself completely to its faith in the Emperor. Essentially, mankind becomes hyper-fanatical automatons.

The sad ending is the Emperor completely dies (assuming he hasn't already)... you can come up with whatever horrific description you want.

I think you may have missed my point. There is physical and psychic proof the Emperor lives. While the only proof that Chaos Gods exist is the word of their followers. There's never been a physical manifestation in real space of any of them. While the Emperor is, well really was, a man and powerful psyker still doing things.

In the end Chaos worshippers have to go off of a gut feeling something's there, while humanity doesn't have to believe anything, they simply know their God Emperor exists and in some capacity is protecting them.

The gut feeling you speak of is what he was talking about, though. The chaos gods don't exist, really. They're just an extension of the vile darkness in man's soul. The chaos that surges up and drives us to hate, jealousy and murder. Even the Primarchs weren't safe from their own humanity. The emperor understood the truth, i think, which is why he was trying to stamp out superstition and bring enlightenment to the galaxy.

Anyway, it isn't so much belief in the chaos gods, it's just being a creature of chaos that gave birth to them. The immaterium is a place where our minds stretch and go beyond normal limits, where it breaks back into reality, we get things like cornflakes.

Though, from the setting standpoint, i would say your explanation is possibly more accurate. Humanity knows the emperor exists, even many heretics admit he did and it isn't some lie, most accept that he's a god, but that their gods are stronger.

I think the real question is, are the daemons servants of the chaos gods? We know they didn't create them after all...

That's striking closer to my point. Simply because a heretic or a daemon says that Khorne exists and he is the Blood God so therefore he is the Blood God is less substantial than a human saying the God Emperor exists. Because of the proof therein.

The fact that Chaos is an extension of the evils that the human soul is capable of doesn't mean that they have fully coallesed into a being of War/Experience/Pestulance/Machiniations or anything else. While I accept the fact it has certainly created realms in the chaotic existence that is the Warp I simply raise that there is no proof for their God's existence. Simply stating their gods are more powerful is mute when they've no proof their gods, and by extension their power, is even there to begin with.

I wonder if this would be considered a heretical belief, or perhaps a more readily accepted belief than any overall. Simply refuting a Chaos God's existence while realizing that Chaos does itself exist, but because the Emperor is there physically and spiritually he is more effective overall.

I'd certainly like to hear a heretic's opinion on the matter.

I think that just saying "Chaos God" is enough to get catch a bolter round to the back of the head, but I digress.

The whole point of Gods is belief, though. You can't prove it to someone else, you believe it yourself and that's proof enough.

Hmmh. Much of this hinges on personal interpretation - even moreso if we consider that a lot of material on the subject is contradictory, depending on where you look.

One could argue the rather heretical idea that there is very little difference between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods simply because there is no difference in the "proof" regarding their existence. Just like the average Chaos cultist has never actually seen their chosen deity, so has the average Imperial subject never seen theirs. The only thing that fuels their faith is cultural predisposition (upbringing and indoctrination) and a desire to believe in something greater than their "meager existence". The more miserable someone is, the more likely they are to turn to religion - not only because they hope for divine intervention, but also because membership in a cult comes with a feeling of familiarity and belonging, which can be a powerful lure on a species that is a social as mankind.

Arguably, the Emperor (or something we are told is the Emperor) has a presence in the Warp, as can be seen with the Astronomican. Ultimately, however, the Emperor is as much or as little a "god" as the Chaos deities, for in the end it's all just psychic energy fuelled by the thoughts and emotions of countless billions of people, channelled through the Immaterium and manifesting as a plethora of phenomena, ranging from bolts of energy flung by psykers, to portals of daemonic incursion. Needless to say, however, the Ecclesiarchy would never admit this, even if its leaders knew the truth. And this, Imperial faith merely being a "mirror" of how Chaos cults operate, is part of 40k's Grim Darkness™ to me.

But, as previously mentioned, this is a highly individual subject where every 2nd gamer and every 2nd writer will have their own opinion . For example, with Blood of Martyrs, FFG seems to have introduced the idea of "divine magic" into 40k. Whether or not someone adopts this interpretation or sticks to GW's own fluff is a question each of us has to answer for themselves. For what it's worth, I am also ignoring those new ideas presented in the Horus Heresy Black Library novel series, simply because stuff like the Imperial Truth, the Emperor being anti-religious, or the existence of "Perpetuals" just doesn't synch with the Codex fluff I "grew up" on.

I think the real question is, are the daemons servants of the chaos gods? We know they didn't create them after all...

IIRC, the "accepted" fluff is that most daemons are simply small bits of their parent/patron chaos god. Thus, they are created by the dark gods and can be reabsorbed, in theory. We also know some daemons and warp entities do not follow that "rule." Enslavers being one. Furies being another (I think).

IIRC, the "accepted" fluff is that most daemons are simply small bits of their parent/patron chaos god

At least that's what it says in the Chaos Codex, aye. They operate like semi-independent proxies, a reflection of their patron - and it is said that their essence can be "reclaimed" by the Chaos God at any time.

That said, it is my interpretation that there are also daemons not aligned to one of the four known Chaos Gods. The important thing here is that they would have to be powerful enough in their own right, either as an effect from being fuelled by emotions and thoughts not connected to the ones that belong to one of the Chaos Gods' domains, or as a cause for their independence, by being able to resist "absorption". Or they are simply aligned to another being in the Immaterium whose power rivals that of the Chaos Gods. The Ork Gods Gork and Mork might possibly qualify, as would the Emperor himself. I'm not the first fan speculating that Living Saints are actually "daemons of the Emperor" ... though my explanation for their existence is a bit more complex.

On a sidenote, I also don't believe that it is pure coincidence that the Eldar god Khaine sounds rather similar to Khorne, and just so happens to have a similar portfolio...

A lot of this probably also comes down to what the Warp is to you.

In our interpretation of the setting, the Warp is basically the stuff dreams are made real of. The matter of the imagined. Things live there and make of it what they will, only to have it casually wrecked, or worse, turned into monsters with a kind of life of their own, every so often by blissfully ignorant sapients from realspace with no self-control. Which neatly explains why Warp entities are all utterly hostile to realspace sapients.

The Gods of the Warp are the dreams, imaginings and emotions of realspace sapients imbued with a kind of life purely through realspace sapients assigning them those properties, and who grow to God-hood by assimilating things in the warp that are similar to themselves, and by reaching out into realspace to convince the sapients there of their God-hood.

Both God Emperor and Chaos Gods are such entities. They're not real, but they definitely exist and have both agency and great power.

It's also why Warp travel is so dangerous. Sink deep enough into unreality and you start becoming malleable, in time and space, but also in every other manner imaginable.

Ahh Lynata I was hoping you'd chime in. I always enjoy your responses.

I really only say the Emperor is more there than Chaos Gods because he has a physical body. Well more a corpse now but it's there, it needs sustenence just like anything else. While there hasn't been any physical proof of a Chaos God other than daemons that seem to serve a concept rather than a being. At least I've never read of any proof of them physically existing in realspace at any time.

I guess if we do accept Khaine as an uncorrupted Khorne, which I do as well I had just forgotten about him, then an Avatar of Khaine is a little proof. But that could also be interpreted as a manifestation of a concept as well rather than an actual God.

I am interested to hear your theory on what Living Saints are though.

I feel honoured!

There's definitely a point about the physical body - though GW hints at his conscience (or whatever is left of it) currently being semi-separated from it, striving towards the Warp, yet still anchored to the Golden Throne, his decaying body a prison for his mind. The introductory section to the "Inquisitor" game even has a bit about the first Inquisitors conspiring to keep the Emperor locked into this current state (with the life support of the Golden Throne originally only conceived as a temporary measure), even though reanimation was possible. Grimdark!

It took some time, but ultimately I came to my current opinion that Living Saints - or rather, at least the kind of Celestine* - are a manifestation of the extreme emotional turmoil accompanying a major crisis, where large parts of a planetary population or fanatical armies pray for relief by divine intervention, fervently believing in it to be possible whilst experiencing apocalyptic pressure. This much emotional energy then gave birth to a minor Warp entity, projected right into the heart of the conflict where it possessed one of the faithful - the dead body of Celestine, which it reanimated, absorbing her memory in the process and using this physical body to maintain its shaky link to the material realm.

My attempt to reconcile the existence of something obviously unnatural with GW's vision of Acts of Faith actually just being normal human badassery driven by willpower and superstition rather than actual divine magic.

This intepretation - which kind of ties into how Slaanesh was "born", just on a much smaller scale - considers Celestine an independent entity, but given the musings offered in the previous posts, it would also be compatible with the God-Emperor acting like a Warp God in his own right, and potentially powering his own array of "Daemons of the Emperor", including this one.

The title "Carrion God" has been mentioned in official material, even. Maybe this - eternal order via stagnation, the Pax Imperia in the form of undeath for an entire galaxy, enforced by uncaring tyranny - is his portfolio?

*: "Living Saint" is, in the end, merely a title bestowed by the Ecclesiarchy, and one should probably not assume that an entity like Celestine is considered the norm, even though it's the first thing everyone will think of when LS are mentioned.

An interesting theory if there ever was one. Perhaps in his own way the Emperor is a Chaos God himself. Representing the Chaos that arises from order. If we take chaos as a general term for everything and nothing, then order must itself spawn from Chaos. Perhaps the sacraficing of the shamans created the god originally and simply bound it, and it just took time for the creatio to find a way to forcibly insert itself into the Warp.

Perhaps in his own way Horus, and by extension Chaos, caused the creation of their greatest threat, a psychic embodiment of pure order acting in its own way chaotically.

A new god the Carrion Lord, order through stagnation, the chaos that can arise from a system that suffers no entropy which in itself is a mad idea. He needent even create his own daemons when he has trillions to wage war with, certainly more powerful things exist under his control like space marines and occasionally beings that the ecclarisy defines as Living Saints.

Perhaps the sacraficing of the shamans created the god originally and simply bound it, and it just took time for the creatio to find a way to forcibly insert itself into the Warp.

Huh, I had not even considered this, even though it is such an obvious possibility! It'd also tie in neatly with my own pet-theory regarding the "creation" of Celestine, though in the latter case it'd be more of an accident rather than a concerted effort (but then again, Celestine would be nowhere close to the God-Emperor's psychic power or eternity).

Perhaps in his own way Horus, and by extension Chaos, caused the creation of their greatest threat, a psychic embodiment of pure order acting in its own way chaotically.

Indeed! Though the continued existence of the Imperium in its current state provides a nigh-perfect environment for Chaos. There is another theory that assumes that if Chaos were ever to win this conflict, much of its current potential would essentially self-destruct in an orgy of violence, as countless quarrelling warbands and little lords would suddenly find themselves without a common enemy, turning onto each other and destroying much of their occupied lands, including their inhabitants. The end result would be a wasteland where survivors would live the "true Chaos" way - but with significantly reduced power for its gods as there is fewer conflict than the Eternal War encompassing the entire galaxy now.

Until the clock resets and a new faction of order arises. Or until the Tyranids eat everyone.

Maybe by M60, the humans will be the new eldar, and the tau will be the humans.

Roight, lissen up, ya 'umie grotz! Favver Gitsmasha is 'ere ta spread da wurd of da only two true godz, Gork an' Mork!

Dat's roight, da Orkses 'ave it all roight, an' everyone else iz muckin' about. Da Impeeriulz, da spiky ladz, da Elfdar, an' even dose flyin' glowy fingz da metal gitz 'ave, all o' dem are just grotz fer Gork an' Mork da krump. I knows dey're real, 'cos da fist o' Gork comes out o' da sky an' smashes da uvver gitz whenever me Weirdboy screams 'is prayerz to 'im.

... Or is it da fist o' Mork? I can never remember. Eivver way, it'z big an' green an' dead killy.

Since da Orkses wuz born ta fight, an' dere's nuffink but fightin' in da 'ooniverse, den da Orkses must 'ave already won. Is logikk! We looted it from da 'umies when dey wasn't lookin'! Hurr hurr hurr. Orkses get wot dey wants, and wot we wonts is MORE WAAAAGH! An en't nuffink wot da uvverz can do 'bout it.

So da long of da short of it is, Gork an' Mork are real, an' dere's no dispootin' it. Yer a loada weedy grotz, but maybe you'z can be not quite so weedy if ya donate to Da Church of Gorkamorka today. I'll be passin' out da kollekshun plate fer yer teef, an' if ya don't put any in yerself, den I'll smash 'em out fer ya!

Now, all join me in da first Psalm of da Ork Godz. *Ahem...*

"WAAAAAAAAGH!"

I'd believe in the existence of Chaos Gods before I ever believe in the existence of the gods of little more than fungus Greenskin.

OI! DIS GIT'Z ONE A' DEM 'AIRYTICS! GET 'IM, BOYZ!

I do like me some WAAAGH, but that's just because there are moar orks ta kill.

Counter-argument: The emperor definitely exists. But 'oh, but we've seen him, he's on Terra' means next to nothing to generic spod #23,65,342 on a hive world in the middle of nowhere.

A generic inhabitent of the Imperium is about as likely to stand in front of the Brass Throne as the Golden one.

Equally just because he's physically there doesn't make him god. He's not broadcasting the astronomican, after all (says the doubter). That's the thousands of astronomican psykers being drained in the hollow mountain.

The closest to 'meaningful interaction' anyone has with him is the Astropathic soul-binding - and firstly the number of astropaths is ridiculously minimal (I think the sector capital itself has a choir of about half a dozen?) and even that is basically being scorched in a vast pillar of soul-fire, which is coming from (again) thousands more psykers having their souls minced in a mish-mash of sorcerous technology and leftover necron artefacts. No 'guiding intelligence' is necessarily required.

So yes, you can prove the emperor exists. But you can't prove he's more than just a half-rotten corpse in a box.

Miraculous 'divine intervention' is something you can claim for battle sisters or whatever, but is daemonic intervention not basically the same thing? After all, again, it's not like the Emperor signs his name to anything.

Also, daemons and the chaos gods aren't seperate things; daemons are an element of their god and the god is as much a gestalt of all the aligned daemons as it is a seperate entity. So, no, you're never going to get a 'guest appearance' by the blood god himself outside the warp. But you can have an entire world overrun by daemons of khorne and the laws of physics folded up like a paper hat. That's more than just "a gut feeling that something's there".

Equally, whilst mortals can never get a peek 'behind the curtain', there are the daemon princes, who do. These are mortals who have been raised to immortal daemonhood and do get to interact with the higher courts and the gods themselves, but who you can trace back to their mortal origin as "jeff, that guy who talks about stabbing people".

Miraculous 'divine intervention' is something you can claim for battle sisters or whatever [...]

And even then it's apparently not actual miracles in the core material, but merely the result of lifelong training, fanatic willpower and superstition of both the actors as well as the witnesses.

Yes, I'm still bothered by the Blood of Martyrs supplement completely ditching that bit in favour of obvious divine magic. Apart from diminishing the badassness of the SoB, it also reduces the Grimdark of a state church seemingly built on nothing but superstition and lies. Divinity actually makes "right", taking away from the shades of grey that dominate the atmosphere of the setting in favour of a subjectively boring white (IoM) vs black (Chaos).

I must say, I agree mostly with Lynata here, at least Fluff-Wise.

From the point of Rules and Gamedesign though, these "Divine Powers" do make sense, to balance out the means a radical Inquisitor/Chaos Worshipper has with all his Sorcery, Summoning and and Daemon-Weapons. Yes, they do pay a price in Insanity and Corruption, but I do believe the die-hard puritan pays a price similar, although in a more narrative fashion not exactly supported by the rules by closing off certain courses of action which would be... more appropriate in the given situation.

However, a campaign which would explore the "Daemonhood of the Emperor" would surely be very interesting... especially the big reveal: "So, the Emperor, who protected you, whom you prayed to... just another Daemon. Yep, a dameon. You're all corrupted." This would need another mechanic to track "Divine Corruption" though, as the power of the Emperor does manifest in different manners after all... hmm... maybe some counterpart to corruption-points called "purity points", complete with a set of "malignancies" and "mutations"?

Well, that's one thing that's been explored far more recently in Deathwatch and the recent digital LotD codex:

You can imagine the Emperor as a 'chaos god' - a super-powered, emotion-driven warp entity - note that this is the idea of the Emperor, resulting from the coelescense of mankind's faith, self-sacrifice and xenophobia, in the same way Gork and Mork draw from orks, or khorne is driven by the rage, martial pride and hatred of all the galaxy's sentient races - and is not necessarily directly tied to the aforementioned dead guy in a box.

Such an entity may well have the same properties as the four ruinous powers - individuals bear the 'mark of' (the Thorian's Divine Vessels and the ecclesiarchy's 'living saints'), and you get the possibility of immortal, unhuman servants - in this case, this is one of the suggested origins of the Legion of the Damned.

And living saints as discussed earlier.

I think the theology we're all pressing on here is fascinating. I personally don't like to think of the Emperor as a God, but the greatest human being to ever exist. A man with a will and power so strong that even in death his soul still burns brightly in the immaterium and can protect all of humanity. The Emperor is still out there, he didn't ascend to godhood, he's merely unstoppable. The warp is now his battleground, and the fact that after 10,000 years, the imperium still exists at all is credence to his power, proof that humanity has a destiny still, but one it must claim with it's own blood.

So yeah, get some, Emperor of Mankind.

This would need another mechanic to track "Divine Corruption" though, as the power of the Emperor does manifest in different manners after all... hmm... maybe some counterpart to corruption-points called "purity points", complete with a set of "malignancies" and "mutations"?

Hah, I've actually been working on something ( small teaser ) that uses the exact same term, "Purity Points". I envisioned it as a sort of mirror to Corruption Points, just with the scale going into the opposite direction, and the points negating one another on a 1:1 basis. This way, Purity could serve as a buffer against Corruption, but may still slowly get eroded over time - until eventually, a once-faithful individual hits the 0 threshold (the average) and starts getting tainted for real.

Higher levels of Purity would also allow activation of Acts of Faith.

Now, my interpretation would regard Purity as a purely willpower/indoctrination-based thing (if "an open mind is like a fortress with its gates left unguarded", then a closed mind must be a bulwark against corruption), so there won't be any supernatural powers or even "mutations" ...

... however, I'm intrigued now by the idea of higher levels of Purity coming with certain psychological drawbacks associated with religious zeal, ranging from simple stubbornness and an almost dangerous level of conviction all the way to going full mental by hearing voices and seeing visions all in your mind, and becoming filled with a frightening sense of purpose that can be quite unnerving to anyone not swept away by your charismatic aura.

Thanks, you've inspired me!

You can imagine the Emperor as a 'chaos god' - a super-powered, emotion-driven warp entity - note that this is the idea of the Emperor, resulting from the coelescense of mankind's faith, self-sacrifice and xenophobia, in the same way Gork and Mork draw from orks, or khorne is driven by the rage, martial pride and hatred of all the galaxy's sentient races - and is not necessarily directly tied to the aforementioned dead guy in a box.

I've heard this idea before - it's not the one I've subscribed to, but it is an interesting take on the subject and I have to agree that it does sound plausible. It would be a delicious irony if there were essentially "two Emperors" - the comatose Emperor on the Golden Throne, and the God -Emperor as an independent entity in the Warp - wouldn't it?

I think the theology we're all pressing on here is fascinating. I personally don't like to think of the Emperor as a God, but the greatest human being to ever exist. A man with a will and power so strong that even in death his soul still burns brightly in the immaterium and can protect all of humanity. The Emperor is still out there, he didn't ascend to godhood, he's merely unstoppable. The warp is now his battleground, and the fact that after 10,000 years, the imperium still exists at all is credence to his power, proof that humanity has a destiny still, but one it must claim with it's own blood.

Yeah, that's the idea I cling to as well (albeit closely followed by what Magnus mentioned above).

It is perhaps a bit naive in that I feel the original background tries to hide an "ugly truth" that is at best only being hinted at, but for the time being it's the most direct translation of what I have been reading all those years - see the Inquisitor quote on the previous page .

I think the idea of "Purity Points" sort of undermines the insidious corruption of Chaos and one of the central themes of the setting. It's supposed to be a downward, irreversible spiral, and the reason it's so dangerous is that nobody is safe from it. It'd be like Call of Cthulhu if you could have a buffer against Insanity. It just isn't done.