Dearest Fantasy Flight Games, hello! I was one of your long time supporters of that whole Game of Thrones awesome card thinger. We had much fun, my friends and I. So much that we went to tournaments (Gen Con too!), met cool peoples like the Morgan lady, ktomeggedon, and that wacky Lucas dude; played in that really awesome guy's beer basement where all the greats came in the midwest; and nearly funded one of our local game stores for a few years with all of our card buying.

And then, something terrible happened. You took away our Christmas! No longer did we have the joy in opening booster packs and salivating over what we might get. No more, "Gee, I hope this has a Massing at Twilight." No, we got, "Ah... another chapter pack that's mediocre... Hurrah.." We stopped buying new cards. Period.

(though, I will tell you that I have kept all my cards and share the game with family members, kids, co workers, and random girlfriends).

We loved that game. Now, all that said, and if the moderators would deem to keep this subject alive long enough that someone up in the company could read it, I urge you to watch this video by this lovely group that also loves games, Extra Credits. And after that, return Christmas, ya Scrooges! That is all .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGkpoYxSep8#t=309

Seriously? Now you come here to complain about the LCG switch? And demand it be taken back? Wow.

On a similar note, I'd like to protest most sharply against the opening of the first German railway line between Nuremberg and Fürth in 1835. The insane speeds attained in railway travel (upward of 15 mph!) pose a serious health risk and will make the passenger's heads explode. Therefore I demand in the strongest terms that not only the Nuremberg-Fürth line but also all other railway lines built since be dismantled, and this crazy technology be abandoned forever.

There are two sides to this story. Extra Credits seems to understand both of them (try watching parts 1 & 2 of the their discussion of collectible gaming).

I think that between the relative success of the LCG model and FFG's recent attempts to develop a draft format for some of their games, it's clear - and encouraging - that the LCG developers understand the entire issue.

Seriously? Now you come here to complain about the LCG switch? And demand it be taken back? Wow.

On a similar note, I'd like to protest most sharply against the opening of the first German railway line between Nuremberg and Fürth in 1835. The insane speeds attained in railway travel (upward of 15 mph!) pose a serious health risk and will make the passenger's heads explode. Therefore I demand in the strongest terms that not only the Nuremberg-Fürth line but also all other railway lines built since be dismantled, and this crazy technology be abandoned forever.

His complaint isn't a fabricated one, though. He is a player who enjoys both the CCG format and A Game of Thrones. It probably wouldn't work in FFGs favor to return to the CCG format as they likely can't win a direct competition with Wizards, but it's not like he is making something up. Opening boosters is just... fun.

Yeah, well, maybe I should've at least watched the video before making fun of him. Sorry, dude! But I didn't mean harm, I just wanted to have a bit of good-natured fun.

And ktom, your point about the draft format is well taken.

Draft needs to be cheaper or SOMETHING. :S

Dat price tag

Dearest Fantasy Flight Games, hello! I was one of your long time supporters of that whole Game of Thrones awesome card thinger. We had much fun, my friends and I. So much that we went to tournaments (Gen Con too!), met cool peoples like the Morgan lady, ktomeggedon, and that wacky Lucas dude; played in that really awesome guy's beer basement where all the greats came in the midwest; and nearly funded one of our local game stores for a few years with all of our card buying.

And then, something terrible happened. You took away our Christmas! No longer did we have the joy in opening booster packs and salivating over what we might get. No more, "Gee, I hope this has a Massing at Twilight." No, we got, "Ah... another chapter pack that's mediocre... Hurrah.." We stopped buying new cards. Period.

(though, I will tell you that I have kept all my cards and share the game with family members, kids, co workers, and random girlfriends).

We loved that game. Now, all that said, and if the moderators would deem to keep this subject alive long enough that someone up in the company could read it, I urge you to watch this video by this lovely group that also loves games, Extra Credits. And after that, return Christmas, ya Scrooges! That is all .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGkpoYxSep8#t=309

Game of Thrones will never, ever be going back to the booster pack model. Not only did the switch to LCG help Game of Thrones from dying off, it has instead helped propel it to thriving status.

The LCG model is not FFG's bread and butter for their card games. Asking FFG to go back to a model that was failing them is like asking the mortgage industry to go back to high risk loans that helped lead to the housing crisis of 2008.

I love the the thrill of draft and opening boosters, but hate the arms race that is CCG. I got into Thrones for the LCG format. But down side is, new players are overwhelmed initially with the card pool if they want to be cometitive. Rotation?

Opening boosters is fun, but the LCG model is one I far prefer. No more trawling the singles market to get the card I want, or buying whole booster boxes to try to get a viable deck.

The only real downside is that to be competitive you do need to buy a hell of a lot of cards and expansions. As snagriss said, rotation is a fix for this, but one that has its own problems.

Even the 2 x Core set requirement is quite a steep entry cost, it must be said.

I'd like to see rotation as well as a new Core Set. It's hard to convince friends to start playing now when there are 10 cycles worth of cards to buy.

I still don't entirely agree with the "to be competitive you do need to buy a hell of a lot of cards and expansions." I think the need is more psychological than practical. Looking at different "competitive decks," there isn't a wide spread of cards among every chapter pack and expansion ever printed - although I will grant that there are some decks that do sample freely. However, it's not like, as a Stark player, you must buy the entire Clash of Arms cycle to get Icy Catapult or To Be a Wolf. And, quite frankly, if you don't have them, it's not like you shouldn't even bother showing up at a tournament because you will be hopelessly outclassed - by any deck.

Seriously, I really think the "there are 10 whole cycles of cards to buy" mentality is more of a collector mentality that people bring from a CCG environment than it is a true LCG competition mentality. Next time you build a deck, actually LOOK at how many of those 10 cycles are represented by more than 1 card.

ktom its not about NEEDING those cards, its about WANTING those cards. The type of person that these games attract do not go into things half-a$$ed. whether or not there is an ACTUAL disadvantage to not have a complete collection, there is a PERCEIVED disadvantage in our sick OCD brains. If you told me there was an awesome 3 year old Star Wars game that i'd love, i wouldnt bother trying it unless i knew i could obtain all the cards easily and cheaply, even though id know that makes no sense.

That's more or less my point, Dennis. The statement, "New players have to buy 10 complete cycles in order to be competitive" is just false, but people keep saying it - and believing it.

I can agree that, "New players feel they have to buy 10 complete cycles - even though they will never play with a majority of those cards - simply because there are 10 complete tournament-legal cycles" is a common - and potentially damaging - mindset, though. But the two statements are not the same.

If you want rotation to encourage new players, I'd argue the psychological barrier to entry, not the competitive one, when appealing to FFG.

It's true. I have the collector OCD myself and I had to buy everything at some point to be satisfied. My journey was a lot more gradual though. Every couple months, I'd buy 1-2 CP cycles or 1-2 Deluxe boxes to try and fill in those gaps. I also experimented with several decks themes during that time as well.

I freaking *love* the LCG model. The "catch-up" problem is a big one, though. I think there should be some re-releasing of "favorite" cards, perhaps by house, in theme packs. Something like the Team Covenant house packs, which are great for a new player getting into the game, but possibly prioritized by cards that actually see play (instead of, say, Observation Point)

For CCGers who need that rush of opening packs, I think draft fills that need nicely - though it might be nice if you could just buy draft packs instead of chapter packs for a cycle, and get a random mix of cards. This doesn't ameliorate the whole "rarity" issue; but maybe there's an alternative to that (Alt Art, foils, full bleed cards, etc) which wouldn't totally ruin the game for people like myself who just want to spend $20 every so often and stay caught up. Actually, the more I think about it, the very real demand for Alt Art cards seems like it slots nicely into a reason to buy randomized packs instead - I know people are willing to pay money for that, AND they can double as tourney prizes eventually (for bigger tournaments after the cycle they're in has been out a while, so as to not ruin their cachet).

Even if a new player doesn't NEED every chapter pack of all ten cycles, he's going to see that he's five or six years behind the curve when deciding whether to play Thrones. Then he'll look at Netrunner, or Star Wars, or a game with rotation and decide to play that instead.

I love Thrones and would recommend it in a heartbeat, but a reboot has to be coming in a year or two, which is just another reason to avoid getting into the game right now.

scantrell24

I don't think we have yet to pass the card pool of one of the most fun CCG periods which was when Valyrian, Winter, and Iron Throne Edition were legal. Nor does it begin to approach the card pool of Magic Standard Format.

Vampire was a game that lasted from '94 to 2010. It never had rotation.

I actually think, rotation would hurt this game right now.

scantrell24

I don't think we have yet to pass the card pool of one of the most fun CCG periods which was when Valyrian, Winter, and Iron Throne Edition were legal. Nor does it begin to approach the card pool of Magic Standard Format.

Vampire was a game that lasted from '94 to 2010. It never had rotation.

I actually think, rotation would hurt this game right now.

Actually, Thrones has more than MtG by a significant margin. The current standard format has 1258 unique cards not including the 2014 core set. With the core set (and assuming none of the core set cards are duplicated) it's 1507. Thrones currently has 1728 unique cards in the pool, with probably enough dupes to bring the unique count down to 1700 or so. Either way, Thrones has a full cycle more cards than MtG standard and is going to keep growing (whereas MtG standard will not).

Was recently at GenCon and spoke to a couple of the FF card game workers. Dearest Ktom, I did watch the other two. Still doesn't make me want to play LCG's more especially since that's where they started. Though, at Gencon, I had learned about the draft packs return. I loved those. That is a great way to come back into giving back to the community. I really don't like the LCG model. I already know what's in the pack. I can't trade with friends. That's was a lot of the fun of the game in the beginning. However, I do hear the rest of you about how the LCG model is more economical and potentially could have saved the game (though I am going on hearsay only for now). I'm not recanting what I said though.

I adored the CCG model. And really just came to tell them that. I still play it. In fact, I introduce new players to it whenever I see one interested. But it's no longer an investment. If I could have as much fun buying them as playing them again, I would be all over it. For now, I keep my aging Lightbringer and Army of the Drowned handy until the next family/friend gathering or when I hear someone say, "Hey. What cards are those for?" And I always reply the same to them, "The stuff of legends, my friend. Come, let me show you a REAL card game!"

More whinging from Jasper who is still hurt that nobody agrees with him that CCGs are better than LCGs.

And what's his argument? The thrill? Trading with people?

Sorry, the lack of those things is a positive. That thrill of opening a pack is operant conditioning in play, specifically that intermittent rewards are particularly potent in reinforcing a behavior. Not having to trade with people is a natural result of everyone being on a level playing field.

I'll keep my fair gameplay that doesn't reward addiction, thankyouverymuch.

I would argue that a lot of people agree with him. The Hearthstone, Pokemon, Magic, and Yugioh player bases are far, far, far superior to the AGoT LCG player base and even the Netrunner LCG player base. Just because no one on an LCG board agrees with him doesn't mean no one does. I actually agree with him anyway. There are definitely players who want to both play an LCG for the fixed distribution, but also want to collect and trade. AGoT pretty much makes that completionist desire moot as everyone who buys all the packs automatically has all the cards whereas in MtG and other games a completionist is much more meaningful as they put in a lot more effort for their completion.

Random alt arts is the solution, but I don't know that it will ever happen. This game could have the best of both worlds, but it might come at a bit of a cost. Heck you could just have two or three arts per card (but again... cost is likely going to make this difficult). On the flip side, it's only 240 cards a year. Considered Magic averages 636 cards a year, it's not like it's impossible.