Wow, you really don't like MTG! Fair enough, it's not for everyone. I agree with you about competitive MTG; it's freaking expensive to keep up with, so that's why I only play it casually now (pretty much only Commander/EDH).

However, wanting it to die is perhaps a bit short-sighted. For many people (myself included) it's been a gateway into other games. Your comment about talking to store owners is an apt one; they need MTG to keep in business, and as long as they are in business they will keep running events & clubs, etc, in their area. These events and clubs are where you can show people other games (which the store will more than likely stock, so at least the owners won't be pissed at you for trying to lure their customers away).

I've been looking for an LCG to get into, and I love the 40k universe, so this game has got me really excited. If it turns out to be good (and from the brief snippet we've seen so far, and the fact that FFG rarely produce crap, it should be) I'll demo it to all my MTG friends and try to get them interested in it. In fact, because of the fact that it's 40k, I might even be able to get my wargaming friends into it. Fun times!

Wow, you really don't like MTG! Fair enough, it's not for everyone. I agree with you about competitive MTG; it's freaking expensive to keep up with, so that's why I only play it casually now (pretty much only Commander/EDH).

However, wanting it to die is perhaps a bit short-sighted. For many people (myself included) it's been a gateway into other games. Your comment about talking to store owners is an apt one; they need MTG to keep in business, and as long as they are in business they will keep running events & clubs, etc, in their area. These events and clubs are where you can show people other games (which the store will more than likely stock, so at least the owners won't be pissed at you for trying to lure their customers away).

I've been looking for an LCG to get into, and I love the 40k universe, so this game has got me really excited. If it turns out to be good (and from the brief snippet we've seen so far, and the fact that FFG rarely produce crap, it should be) I'll demo it to all my MTG friends and try to get them interested in it. In fact, because of the fact that it's 40k, I might even be able to get my wargaming friends into it. Fun times!

Ha! Sorry, I get a little vocal about MtG. You're points are certainly fair.

There are two real reasons I don't like Magic.

One, I feel like it is in sore need of an update. Better and more interesting resource generation exists now, and mana is just outdated.

Two, I played for a while, and the random boosters never sat well with me. You end up spending so much cash and rarely getting cards that are useful to you. You can buy the singles at a premium, but selling cards to the store is always a loosing proposition.

To be fair, I don't really want it to die. Game stores need it, and I get that, and am even a little thankful that it keeps my FLGS in business. I just wish I could bring more people over to what I think are better designed & more interesting games like the ones FFG produces.

Magic is a gift and a curse to the gaming community.

It invented a new type of game and brought a lot of people into gaming, and we're grateful for that. But just as the Model T paved the way for the newer and better cars we all drive today we have improved on the mechanics and methods of Magic - the resource system is probably the poster child for that.

The curse is mainly that too many people are stuck in it and because of their investments are unwilling to give newer games a chance. We need high-profit games like Magic to keep the game stores open, but it also stifles progress and chokes out newer card games (such as the LCGs) that deserve to be more widely known and played.

I don't care if Magic coexists alongside other games, but so far it doesn't always. It can be so overbearing that it doesn't leave room in too many people's minds for the other games to have somewhere to live. Problem is, if it died off you'd either need a new revenue stream or a new model for public play that doesn't require one. Rather, we should seek not to kill it but just to reduce it to a proper size and teach it to get along better with others.

I think things have been improving though thanks to Netrunner. It's given some of the Magic guys a reason to look around and start to realize that there ARE more games out there and that these games don't follow the random pack system.

Last night I even had a Magic player asking me to show him a bit about how Call of Cthulhu worked while he was waiting for his buddies to show up.

Well put, dboeren. Like you say, I think a lot of it comes down to most MTG players being totally unaware of alternatives. Keep playing LCGs within their line of sight and demo'ing them and you'll soon have more players.

while the pricing of MTG is a ******* joke.. and a bad one at that. The game itself is still, even after the introduction of mythics and hexproof and the changes to how combat damage stacks and all that.. it is still a good game. The only thing that is really wrong with it is the pricing structure. It is easy to teach, fast to play and has neat effects on the cards.. there is a reason everyone loves it and it is NOT because they do not know alternatives. It is because new players try it and enjoy it. It is the simple.

While I gave up all TCG games long, long ago to this day I still buy the occasional duel deck pack for MTG. These are much like LCGs as you know what is in them and for a few bucks you get 2 decks that can play off each other nicely for dueling @ 120 cards. After a few years I have about 8 (of 12) of these decks now and can even start deck building inside the pool I own. There is no need to spend a fortune on Magic if you do not want to. In fact have fun coffee table games of mtg and it costs LESS than a LCG...

LCGs might tell you what is in the packs but they are designed to force yo to buy ALL of them. Most LCG players own entire collection or aim to own entire collections. There is a reason FFG uses so many factions.. and it is not to make the game cool.. it is so each individual pack only has 1 or 2 cards in it for the faction you are trying to build a deck for. So to get any increase in your pool you need to buy entire cycles.. and even then your only looking at maybe 18 cards or so per faction. Any new player looking to net deck or reading articles will so see that cards in the good decks are drawn from the entire pool and they need to buy 100s of dollars to make even a simple deck.

"Most LCG players own entire collection or aim to own entire collections."

You're thinking of serious players only. There are a ton of casual players out there who pick up a core and maybe a few expansions or an occasional pack and are happy with that. The guys who play the same LCG every week own or aim to own entire collections, but they're only one segment of the whole player base.

"There is a reason FFG uses so many factions.. and it is not to make the game cool.. it is so each individual pack only has 1 or 2 cards in it for the faction you are trying to build a deck for. So to get any increase in your pool you need to buy entire cycles."

In general, LCG players don't seem to play any particular faction other than maybe some of the Thrones guys. At least, I've very seldom ever heard of it. I have seen beginners who favor a faction, but not anyone who has stuck around with the game or gotten more than a few expansions. So, all the cards in a pack are typically valid for your collection even though they might not relate to the deck you're building that particular day. Magic cards aren't sold in five different colored booster packs either, if this is a problem (and I'm not convinced that it is) then CCGs suffer from it as much as LCGs do.

FFG's games have a bit more factions than Magic, but not too much, certainly not enough for me to say they're trying to stretch it out:

Thrones: 6

Cthulhu: 8

Invasion: 6

Lord of the Rings: 4

Netrunner: 7

Star Wars: 6

Conquest: 7

So, an average of between 6-7. It's actually AEG I'd say that really likes doing a lot of factions, Legend of the Five Rings has 9 factions and Doomtown and 7th Sea both had more than that.

Invasion`s got 10, son.

LCG competitive play is affordable directly from the store, while Magic's not. Maybe the completition (does that word exist?) of the long running LCG is too expensive, but the card you buy will be playable and legal for official competitions. I do like Magic, but i don't have the money for staying up to date.

Invasion`s got 10, son.

Yeah, but does that really count?

Invasion made an attempt to take the 4 neutral factions and make them playable independently at the very end of it's life-cycle. Mostly, I believe, to make players of that game happy more than anything else. I don't think it was ever part of the original plan to do that, and in a way I see it almost as a thank you to loyal fans as they ushered that game out as one of their LCG's.

BTW, is Invasion now a DCG? (Dead Card Game)

It's a UCG (Undead Card Game). Supposedly dead, but still moving around like when it was alive.

By 10 do you mean the playable neutral stuff? If so then I have to agree that those aren't really full factions. If those qualified then you probably have to add +1 to every other game as their Neutral cards would count too.

I think he said that because the final expansion have the neutrals their own capital cards, which allows them to be played as their own factions.

LCG competitive play is affordable directly from the store, while Magic's not. Maybe the completition (does that word exist?) of the long running LCG is too expensive, but the card you buy will be playable and legal for official competitions. I do like Magic, but i don't have the money for staying up to date.

This is the big lie though. To be competitive in a LCG you need the entire pool. Or your need to buy packs from all over the pool to make the deck. The thing is the formate dose not use cycles like MTG. Meaning that every card is always valid until it is banned.. so unlike MTG there is no resetting of the buy in for new players. The older the LCG the larger the initial outlay to play competitively.

Is it as expensive as MTG? no.. not even close.. but it is still expensive.. as in 100s of dollars for a single deck.

I forgot were I heard this but I read it on this site somewhere... "Players are like battered wives and MTG is like the abusive husband, whom the player has finally left after years of getting beaten, then we hook up with the LCG that is also hit us, but just not as often.. thought after MTG we think he is a saint... but the LCG is far from a lover that doesn't hit us at all." I forget exactly how it goes but I always liked this description.

I think he said that because the final expansion have the neutrals their own capital cards, which allows them to be played as their own factions.

It allows you to play a Skaven (or whatever) deck, but the cards still do not belong to a Skaven faction. If you were to play a card that says "destroy a Neutral card" it would not look at a Skaven card and say "this guy's ineligible because he's no longer Neutral". It's possible to play an all-neutral deck in other LCGs too.

Is it as expensive as MTG? no.. not even close.. but it is still expensive.. as in 100s of dollars for a single deck.

In Magic, you pay 100s of dollars for a single deck and get only a single deck.

In an LCG, if you were to pay 100s of dollars for a single deck (which I don't believe is typical anyway, regardless of the age of the game) you would receive not only your single deck but also a big collection of other cards that you can use later to build many more decks.

With the new faction boxes, you can build a strong deck for a lot less than before too.

Limited Card pool Early is Ok its a new game but they need to make sure the expansions come on time and help all the factions not just mainly help one of two and then have 1 card for each of the other factions. (im looking at you Invasion)

I would like to see one booster a month and after two cylces so one year release a larger set. In this example you could release new cults for chaos new chapters for Space Marine and that sort of thing it would be cool and then that years boosters would help the new parts of the factions plus the orginal sub groups within the factions.

Is it as expensive as MTG? no.. not even close.. but it is still expensive.. as in 100s of dollars for a single deck.

In Magic, you pay 100s of dollars for a single deck and get only a single deck.

I did say it was way more expensive... I like the LCG I play almost all of them and the reason I can is because of the price.. BUT that is because I am used to TCG prices. Non card game players look at the cost of a LCG and freak out. Your talking 1000s of dollars to stay up to date in only a few years.. spesh if you are paying 20 bucks for a AP cause you do not live in America.

I think this is why many new games are going for quarterly or 1/2 yearly big box expansions.

I would like to see one booster a month and after two cylces so one year release a larger set. In this example you could release new cults for chaos new chapters for Space Marine and that sort of thing it would be cool and then that years boosters would help the new parts of the factions plus the orginal sub groups within the factions.

Yeah I am not sure how I feel about the early faction boxes. Faction boxes are a great idea for older games, but look at ANR.. it just freezes the competitive scene into using those factions as they have twice the cards available. I would like to see a 6 pack AP as normal, then a deluxe focusing on Tyrinids (I would like Necrons but have a feeling we will never see them) ,

I dont really care that much how they expand as long as they do stuff that help and expands the meta and all the factions not just one or two in each pack

The Factions I think in the long run is where the game will be able to be sucsessful.

I did say it was way more expensive... I like the LCG I play almost all of them and the reason I can is because of the price.. BUT that is because I am used to TCG prices. Non card game players look at the cost of a LCG and freak out. Your talking 1000s of dollars to stay up to date in only a few years.. spesh if you are paying 20 bucks for a AP cause you do not live in America.

If you get a German AP, it will cost 8.99 € - or a bit above 12 bucks. In Germany LCG are a little bit cheaper (except you get the english version)

After having had them for a while in Cthulhu I like that boxed expansions can give you a lot of new play at once and allow the designers to really integrate a theme in a way you can't do with just a few cards.

However, if a box is mainly for one faction and you don't play that faction, then it's kind of a bummer. I can see 40K: Conquest being the sort of game where people have a preferred faction, so if I were doing it I would probably not do faction boxes too early and when I did they would be in addition to the normal stream of packs. The approach in Netrunner seems reasonable where they're doing dual-faction boxes, you don't have to wait forever for the last faction to come out

There is a point about the meta naturally gravitating towards the latest released faction though, actually this would probably be considered "thematic" for a 40K game

You can get around that if all the boxes are equal-release like the Terror in Venice box for Call of Cthulhu. It's mainly about adding prominence to certain mechanics (Night/Day and Conspiracies) and all the factions receive cards that do this. But, that seems like after a while it would be a bit predictable. I'd rather see each faction get distinct stuff most of the time.

Invasion`s got 10, son.

Yeah, but does that really count?

Invasion made an attempt to take the 4 neutral factions and make them playable independently at the very end of it's life-cycle. Mostly, I believe, to make players of that game happy more than anything else. I don't think it was ever part of the original plan to do that, and in a way I see it almost as a thank you to loyal fans as they ushered that game out as one of their LCG's.

I don't know, I guess making players happy is a main goal of most game manufacturers, but I see what you are saying. "Was Hidden Kingdoms a fan service?" is a question that will haunt Invasion fans until the end of time. I can categorically state, as I have before, that no one knew the cancellation was coming. No one... So ya. Not really sure what else to say about the real vs. fake faction thing other than it looks like a massive waste of time for a final box.

I could see how one could take the philosophical position that grouping neutral cards with the same trait under a new faction and giving that faction a faction-specific ability does not make a new "faction" in the sense the cards are still grey. But I'm not a fan of being pedantic when pragmatically they play as their own faction and are different from others in real ways. There were definitely issues about cards targeting neutral cards, but now those will never be resolved :( :( To relate that back to Conquest, you could have a bunch of neutral events that are Necron cards (since those guys just sleep underground, then pop up and kill everyone) and eventually build up enough Necron cards to start a Necron faction.

The problem with basing a card game, where most of the time people try each faction because they already have the cards, on a miniatures game, where trying a new faction is a substantial time and money investment, if you are going to alienate people who picked a faction in the minis game and like it. Like clockwork, fans of the Bretonnians would mention they would play Invasion if only the Bretonnians were in the game. Games Workshop exists to sell models, so they invent as many factions as they can possibly support that have different enough aesthetics to appeal to as many people as possible. Then, some marketing genius invented the idea of a table that has each faction on both axes and allows them to ally with relative ease. Now they can sell more models, since people formerly stuck with their Imperial Guard can now add some of those cool Tau they've been looking at to their army. It's likely going that way in Fantasy too.

But wait, there are some players who do not like the creative side of the game, they will never invent their own Space Marine faction, they crave order and a semblance of reason for these forces to work together no matter how weak. So GW writes some lore about one time or another they worked together. Boom, now we have a factory approved reason for them to be on the table next to each other and everyone is happy.

All of this is to say that both FFG and GW have designed these systems so they can shoehorn whatever they want into them. Tomorrow GW could say "Ya, this one time, the Space Marines rode Tyranids into battle against corrupt Imperial Guardsmen because the Tyranids hate Chaos" and it would have to be true. So they can add any race to this game, alliance wheel or not, but 7 factions spread over 6 boxes per cycle is already thin enough, especially when all you have is a core set. If you are waiting for the Tyranids or Necrons or Squats you will likely be waiting a long time.

On topic: The deluxe expansion model is cool and everything, as a guy with less and less time for deck building I appreciate it, but clearly the popular games get the small expansions more frequently. I'd like it (if I do enjoy / get into this game) for it to be in the small expansion model for a long time. Also, in Cthulhu at least, the deluxe expansions and all the faction-defining cards within them, have led to the current meta of extremely strong factions using new cards versus extremely weak factions that haven't received a deluxe expansion yet. One might also suggest that the deluxe expansions pushing the boundaries of what each specific faction can do has resulted in some broken decks (albeit discovered by talented players).

I'd love to see Tyranids in the game as a playable faction at some point, more than Tau, because Tau didn't exist when I played WH40K long ago. But the wheel is so rigid and makes including new factions so complicated that implies:

a) Not alliable factions. Something like a deluxe box expansion. I would be easier to balance, but harder to sell because the limitation of not being able to be included in other decks (and for the people that plays only one faction).

b) New ways to ally factions. Weird but it wuld be cool. The idea of warlods determining the alliable factions is the best idea i've seen by far. Maybe too late in the development, but FFG should consider it.

Sorry for the engrish. I like tyranids.

I'm not that knowledgeable about the 40K world, but the people I've talked to tell me that it makes sense that Tyranids and Necrons would not ally with the other factions. So, I'm expecting that they're more likely to come out as standalone factions.

Stand alone, not alliable faction is a risky move for FFG.

Stand alone, not alliable faction is a risky move for FFG.

I agree, but I also think it's the only way we see 'nids. I just don't know how you ally them to anyone. Of course, they could skip 'nids, and though I would be fine with that, the amount of hurt over them being left out of the core box makes me think FFG will at least look at the posibility. Necrons are similar in being difficult to ally to anyone, though not quite as difficult as 'nids...

Though I think Warhammer is best served as a head to head experience, I wonder if they might not make 'nid and necron challenge decks to be played against as a co-op experience. I think you could probably throw out the ally wheel for that, since just about every faction would see those two as a threat. I know it's already been sugested in other parts of the forum, but I think that could be very interesting. Though, FFG would then have to deal with people being angry that they can't play with their favorite factions.

Of course, it's all just speculation. Can't wait to get some more details on this game.

I wonder if they might not make 'nid and necron challenge decks to be played against as a co-op experience.

That sounds like a great idea.

Necron and Tyranids could be played 1v2, just like the challenge decks in the Star Wars LCG.

Now that's an interesting idea... If they came out with challenge decks that worked well I would definitely be interested in that.

However, that sounds like it might be rather difficult.